Cops ran me off last night. Need advice for further action.

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

OK, some of you may know I have been hunting some property that used to be a local elementary school and I found two gold rings at this location within a few days.

I attended kindergarten and first grade at this school when it was still running. This location is no longer a school, as it was closed down and converted into a Board of Education office about 10 years ago. There were "NO TRESPASSING" signs posted at this location, but I contacted a former teacher of mine (also a local and lifelong resident) who now serves as the chairman of the BOE and he told me not to worry about the signs, and to go ahead and MD as long as I wasn't making a mess and filling all my holes back in.

Anyway, last night I was out there again. There was a pee wee football practice going on at the same time. I made sure and not get in their way and was MD'ing at the opposite end of the grounds.

Anyway, a cop rolls up and tells me I need to leave and that I don't have permission to be out there. I knew that I DID have permission, but I just complied and packed up and left as I am not a big fan of jail. I am assuming that one of the parents or one of the parks and rec coaches called them to have me removed.

So today I called my former teacher/BOE chairman to ask what the deal was. He again said he had no problem with me being out there, but that I should call the School Superintendent and get some sort of written permission to avoid this type of thing in the future.

I then called the super. This dude is new to his job and is a transplant who is not from around here. I explained to him that MD'ing was a very benign hobby. I asked him what the problem was and he started spouting off a bunch of ridiculous crap like this:

"There could be Civil War belt buckles out there." [this statement almost made me laugh uncontrollably]

"You can't metal detect on National Forest land either." [not true - you actually can and I know this for a fact]

"You were loitering." [LOL]

"The stuff you may find in the ground is public property and you can't have it." [WTF? Seriously?]

I suppressed my urge to cuss him and just politely ended the conversation. I just wanted to run this situation by my fellow T-Net members to get some opinions about what - if any - recourse I have to get back out there.

Anyone else encounter a problem such as this? The property is public so I feel like I have just as much right to be out there digging holes as the pee wee football team has to be using the property for practice.

Should I go to my next county commission meeting and state my case? Even if I get turned down for permission I think it would be good to just vent and have my comments made part of public record.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I know there are plenty of other places to MD, but this dude really has me steamed and I want to at least attempt some sort of action to go over his head or "rock the boat" somehow.

It just pi$$es me off that everywhere I have been trying to detect someone has been giving me a hard time. I didn't buy this thing to use only in my back yard.

 

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[TerryC]

I think the cop just decided today was "YOUR DAY", friend. I guess you did the right thing. I was a police officer for 19 years in Milwaukee. If you pushed it, your friend would be put in an untenable position. I would VERY much like to hunt the school at 4th and Hayes in Milwaukee. Golda Meir was a teacher there in 1922. I was a student in about 1955. Those ballfields were all open weeds down to the river. I only wish....James Whitcomb Riley School

 

[Saturna]

Those in authority often like to go for the easy, fun stuff to give them the power trip they desire.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Once it gets to this stage then you need permission, preferably in writing, from the land owners and or county. Cops don't have a clue, and i honestly don't blame them. Joe public calls it in and they have to deal with it. Easy option is to get you to move on.
Find out who the pee wee team has permission from to play there. If the super's babbling about CW buckles then maybe he has a detector himself.
Detecting is illegal here in Sweden...except on the beaches, with permissions, but not many know this. I spend a lot of time informing the local police of this fact and showing them my permits from the county. They wish me "good luck" and go and do something more constructive.

Where police and officialdom are concerned, you NEED permissions and permits! Without them you don't have a leg to stand on.

( This is me offering "something beneficial" to the site, so remember that in the next arguement ok?!)

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I don't have any problem with the cop. I am sure one of the coaches or parents just called him out there do do their bidding.

I need to know what I can do to supersede the authority of this d-bag school superintendent.

It's public property. Why is OK for one use for one group, but not OK for another use for another group? This is what I am trying to surmise.

And I have never said Dano "contributes nothing". Don't know where you got that, but thanks to you and the other members for the guidance thus far.

I need a plan of attack to gain access to this site and another BOE property/former school of mine. There are no laws or public ordinances here prohibiting metal detecting - it's just this dude enforcing his will on me and I don't like it.

 

[TerryC]

My Skinny friend, If you have the time, and/or the ambition, start a lawsuit. Really not that hard. Call out the BOE. It may be that the law will clarify or even change the terms of the tresspass laws in your jurisdiction. Many people are unaware that certain laws have never been challenged so therefore remain on the books, even though flawed. Will you be the first?? Stay thirsty, my friend. TTC

 

[jeff of pa]

Sorry you screwed up.

Your done.

You should have dropped the name of the teacher who gave you permission
to the Cop, Saying "Yes I Do have permission"

going back to him & Going above him to the super
who obviously said no just
ended it

You could try a School Board Meeting & Try to go over his head
But it's probably a lost cause

 

[allan]

I would go to the school board meeting and take all the scrap you have pulled out of there and describe how you will work and when and where and generally kiss butt and there is a chance they may say yes. they may even ask you to bring finds in for show and tell lol

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Sorry you screwed up.

Your done.

You should have dropped the name of the teacher who gave you permission
to the Cop, Saying "Yes I Do have permission"

going back to him & Going above him to the super
who obviously said no just
ended it

You could try a School Board Meeting & Try to go over his head
But it's probably a lost cause

I'm thinking county commission meeting. Like I said, I don't think it's right that some folks are allowed to "trespass" and practice football while others are denied metal detecting. Also, there are no specific laws here that prohibit MD'ing. The guy is a school superintendent who is paid with my tax dollars barring me from from MD'ing on land maintained by my tax dollars. He is not some king or land baron.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Jeff makes some true, but sad points. Why didn't you just tell the cop you had permission? You say you didn't want confrontation, so you left? Well now you HAVE confrontation. Doh! Why didn't you just tell him you had permission? I bet he wouldn't have even verified the truth of it (ie.: called your friend to even ask if this is so). And you say "I'm not a fan of jail" in regard to your decision not to alert him that you had permission? Do you really think you're "going to jail" for detecting (when you had permission for pete's sake?). Of course not! No one goes to jail for that. So where does that come from? It's as if you thought something is inherently wrong with you, or your hobby, so you slink away as if you were guilty? Now it's easier for higher-ups to perpetuate the "no". You had the perfect opportunity to alert him to your legitimacy, but your slinking away just paints a picture that's just not accurate, and ends up making for the very confrontation you wanted to avoid.

And now you go back to your friend, who gave you permission? Let's face it: if you read closely between the lines of what you said, that your friend said, it was more on the level of: "no one's going to care, so just lay low and don't make any marks" kind of thing. In other words, his "permission" was more like "I don't think anyone's gonna care". But when you go back to him saying "the cops booted me", he's not inclined to use his clout against the cops.

So now that "someone cares" (who probably wouldn't have, if you'd just alerted him to your permission) your friend just sends you up the chain of command to someone else. You'd have been better off to cite his authority when first confronted. Because odds are, the cop would've been satisfied, shrugged his shoulders, and left. Probably wouldn't have even have checked the truth of the matter. By leaving (as if you were guilty or something), you merely subject yourself to powers further up the ladder. And history has shown that deskbound bureaucrats find it easy to say "no" (when things like "police" and "bootings" are words crossing their desk) because it's the easy answer (even though they personally might never have given the matter thought before, or would ever have cared).

Sounds like you're legally in the right: if there's no prohibitions, then you're right: no need to ask permission. No more so than a person needs permission to fly a frisbee. So technically, you went beyond what you even needed to do by getting permission. And trust me: those "no trespassing" signs are at ALL schools nowadays (in addition to fences around a lot of them in the United States.) But as you noticed, the school yards still tend to be used by joggers, dog walkers, basket ball, etc... after school hours, and no one cares. Because there's always still a turn-style opening, or wide spot in the gate, etc..... The "no trespassing" sign is there so they can shoo away perverts, or boot the homeless guy who wants to camp out there, etc... But no, they don't boot the kid who goes there to fly a kite, as no one cares usually. Kind of like the "private property" signs at shopping center entrances: so they can shoo away the solicitors, people camping overnight in RV's, etc...

Personally, if it were me, I'd gamble that it was the pee-wee football people who didn't want "the wierd guy with the geiger-counter thingy" there. And treat it as an isolated incident. I've gotten incidents like that before, and just return later, at a different shift time, and avoid *just* the one complainer, or *just* that one cop's shift, and a lot of times, you never hear a peep again! All too often, we md'rs are inclined to "go fight", and then you only end up getting an actual clarified rule against us. When sometimes, just avoiding that one cop, gardener, etc... is the best way. Because let's face it: we're in an odd hobby that draws the stares of the curious. We do things that draw connotations (holes, "treasure" for our mantle places at the public's expense, etc...). Better to keep a lower profile, go at low traffic times, etc... and avoid the busy-bodies to begin with.

In your case, you actually DID have permission (even though you failed to cite it). So if I was you, I'd wait a few months, go at a different time. And I bet nothing ever becomes of it. Because as your friend even says, no one probably cares (with rare exceptions like this recent deal). And even if someone DID say something in the future (even if that same cop came again), you merely cite your permission, and I bet they leave you alone. But as I say, probably not going to happen again, if you just choose some odd time like 5 to 8am on Saturday, or after 6pm's when there's no pee-wee football, etc....

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Tom, thanks for the advice. I will probably just do as you say and lay low for a while and return after the brats are through with their football practices rather than causing a stink.

As for why I did not back talk the cop, you have obviously never dealt with Georgia law enforcement. I got arrested for disorderly conduct when I was 19 for saying the word s*** in public one time. Of course the charge was later dismissed, but these fools will arrest you for looking at them the wrong way down here. Besides, if I start arguing with them it usually escalates fairly quickly. I have dealt with them on more than one occasion so I am confident I did the right thing. This isn't California where they will write you a ticket for a bag of weed and send you on your merry way. Things are different here.

A different cop had actually rolled up on me in the same place and didn't bother me at all. He was nice and interested in the stuff I was finding.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Oh, and also: the super's comment about:

"The stuff you may find in the ground is public property and you can't have it."

Actually, he's probably right. It's along the lines of rules forbidding "collecting" etc... These type rules are written for the intent of keeping someone from backing up their truck to the tot lot, and taking all the tan bark for use in your home garden. Or cutting all the roses down to sell at the flea market. Or unbolting the swing set and taking it home, etc.... There's no reason why these type clauses can't be applied to coins and rings. Afterall, they belong to the public (just like that tan bark, those roses, and the swing-set did), so why do you think you can just go harvest it, whether it be coins, roses, or tan-bark? There's really no getting around this. If it bothers someone a lot, so they think they can argue or sue to get around it, they're sadly mistaken, and have probably chosen the wrong hobby.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Oh, and also: the super's comment about:

"The stuff you may find in the ground is public property and you can't have it."

Actually, he's probably right. It's along the lines of rules forbidding "collecting" etc... These type rules are written for the intent of keeping someone from backing up their truck to the tot lot, and taking all the tan bark for use in your home garden. Or cutting all the roses down to sell at the flea market. Or unbolting the swing set and taking it home, etc.... There's no reason why these type clauses can't be applied to coins and rings. Afterall, they belong to the public (just like that tan bark, those roses, and the swing-set did), so why do you think you can just go harvest it, whether it be coins, roses, or tan-bark? There's really no getting around this. If it bothers someone a lot, so they think they can argue or sue to get around it, they're sadly mistaken, and have probably chosen the wrong hobby.

I believe items that are "lost" would be legally different than a swing set erected by the county or landscape items planted on the property.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"back talk the cop"

No no no, ........ we're not advocating getting in a cop's face, or whatever you meant by "back talk". To merely answer "I have permission" (with a BIG smile on your face, friendly as an angel), is what I meant.

Here's an example: A friend of mine recently got permission from some low ranking tractor driver, to detect in an urban demolition site. As the day wore on, a higher ranking supervisor guy comes to the job site, sees my friend detecting, and gives him the boot. My friend ..... SMILING and friendly says "but I have permission". The supervisor says "from who?" My friend points to the guy on the tractor. But the supervisor says "well ......... I'm the supervisor of all these guys, and I'll have to over-ride his say-so". But after that, he says with a wink-wink: "What I don't see after 5pm doesn't bother me." With that, my friend got his name, and could see the company name on the truck he was driving.

A few days later, several of us go back to this demolition site, un-do the bailing wire, and help ourselves after 6pm. After a few days of hunting like this un-bothered, we eventually got a couple of cops try to shoo us away. The usual song and dance of "you can't be in there". So we go them and say "we have permission from so & so, at such & such company, out of such & such city". The cops just look at each other, and say "ok", and left!! They never even verified the story! We had it just so well rehearsed (because we had this fellow's true name and location, etc...) that .... they just bought it. But see, in your case, you have an even better iron-clad name-dropping to do.

Glad to hear that you're not going to risk getting rules written, to "address your pressing issue". Ie.: suing, going to council meetings and making a stink, etc... Yes those extreme measures might be needed for an actual written rule, or repeated true enforcements. But no: Not for isolated incidents, which might be nothing more than a bored mis-informed cop, or them having to respond to a pee-wee football busy-body mom, etc....

 

[aa battery]

wow thats it

 

[Arizona Bob]

Thanks in advance for any advice. I know there are plenty of other places to MD, but this dude really has me steamed and I want to at least attempt some sort of action to go over his head or "rock the boat" somehow.

You could easily get permission (in writing) from the Superintendent. Go back and schedule another meeting with him. Tell him you don't think you explained your actions very well the other day. Let him know you were walking laps around the Pee-Wee practice and lost your gold ring somewhere on the field. You need to use your metal detector to try and find it.

Would this be a white lie?

As long as the ends justify the means!

j/k

 

[mfitzy111]

I've been lucky not to have this happen to me, I wasn't going to write all this.. but decided that it's something I want to do to help you out. This issue is more an attitude issue. let me explain.

Most parks here in PA close at dusk and since I work nights it's the only time I get a chance to hunt them. I don't pay HALF my TAXES, why can I only be there half the time?!!?!

they are mostly open and not gated or locked... the last time I went to the local park it was at about midnight and i worked it for a few hours before a cop rolled on to the fields and spot lighted me. I waved back, smiling and saying HI! He then proceeded to check all the structures in the park with the spot light and went on his way.I didn't hide or freak out.
I've hit an older school 2 or 3 times, and actually would have had more conflict dealing with the lawnmower man at a local ball field down the street from my house. the conflict was I was detecting while he was mowing, I think when he saw I was also picking up trash he decided I wasn't hurting anything- so who cares!

I acted like I belonged there and he never came over to ask me anything, nor did I call out of wave to him. figuring it was 80+ out and I was already up for 24 hours, if he was going to come over and complain I'd politely show him what I was doing (non-destructively recovering coins, and picking up tetneus causing sharps.) and if he was still not happy I'd thank him for his concern and move on. even though the area isn't posted in my local area there are a ton of ball fields. Why bother complaining to the dude mowing- when i could just move on and detect some place else. it's a waste of energy.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?FORM=Z9LH4

I personally can be someone that attracts unwanted attention if I let my bad attitude get out of control. but I also know that if I keep a positive outlook good things happen.

so let's go over your situation again, you kinda-sorta had oral permission to be some place that was posted (and other people were also on it- while it was posted also!). it would be a good idea that anyplace that is posted you get some thing in writing, and if asked why you want it in writing explain because if you go late or in the early morning you don't want conflict with the cops. most people that are going to give you permission, aren't going to bat and eye at you asking for it on paper.

I've put a link up for you for bing maps (because it's got the best detail out there for mapping from a sky view, you can see leaves on the trees almost!) check local and research about 10 places close to you. if those places are posted work on getting permission, if they aren't knock yourself out detecting. more and more the public parks only have an issue if your tearing their grounds up. after reading your stories you might run in to people in conflict with what your doing, but it seems to me your problem is that you expect every time you are out detecting? for me personally I like going where people aren't, and I don't want to be hassled, I have no patient for being annoyed and odd hours are great if you are living in those hours as a schedule like I am. (being out from midnight to sun up I found a ton of stuff! best part is no people!) being out when others are having day camp was a drag as the park was actually closed, to everyone but the kids till after 3 pm. I did what I'm suggesting to you, look in to having a backup place to go, get about 10 of them. when you have an issue go and hunt some place else. it's easy, and your still going to find stuff. Why make a mental note about why or who was causing you static and go to the top and complain? it's self defeating to argue with say a super of a school, when you can go across town to another school and find stuff there. I'm not saying what the guy did is right- I'm saying it's not worth the fighting because you'll only waste your time and energy...and you can't dig good stuff up while your dealing with that stuff.

in my city I am even considering going and doing the side walks because the city owns them, and most people don't care- also if someone complains I can just move on and go someplace else. no worries.

here's what good about what I'm suggesting...there is no need for conflict- you should have permission in writing so if the man shows up you can just say -'excuse me sir. I do have permission- so and so gave me it in writing- and they go away. as far as nosy busy-bodies like that guy on the golf cart with the dog when you found that first ring. there are always going to be people minding your business. happens everywhere I go- if people ask how much does that thing cost (you can bet, they want to steal it.), are you finding anything 'NOPE JUST YOU'ALLS TRASH', say that with a smile. if they say you can't do that here, ask nicely as to why? and it's best to point out "I've dung about 150 holes here in the last few days, do you see any of them? then turn it around so they answer YES to a few questions. You want to keep the park clean right? YES
You wouldn't want to get this in your barefoot (show em a nail- everyone finds a few of these an outing! carry one with you if you can! it helps!) YES - be creative, but get them to say YES. then ask them 'what they have an issue with you recovering sharp things that might hurt them, and making the park a better place then you found it?' / give them no reason for you to logically stop what your doing.
some beach combers have even been told they should be getting paid to remove that trash...since the state doesn't do that...


-It's best to have more then one place to go. Like I was saying in my local area I have about 10 parks with in a 30 minute drive in every direction. some are posted at dusk, a few aren't posted at all. It took me a while to discover where they are using that link. the research is just another part of metal detecting. it's cool.

the 'people issue' highly reflects what attitude you give them. If you look for a fight every time your out you'll likely find more then one. I've had some bad eggs bother me- mostly saying stuff like your not going to find gold here (weirdly it was the day I found my only gold ring!), and some good people asking if I was having any luck with finds. The bad eggs will be all over you watching you like a hawk if your digging deep holes. Last time I was at a park a cop came out and warned a woman about her three dogs on the beach, and didn't even say anything to me about digging- because I gave him nothing to complain about- it's not posted there yet, and I hope it won't be in the future either.

now -let me explain why I just wrote all this - I just started up MDing this year, March. you know how many people have come to me and asked me to leave? zero. My attitude -the way I think about the people I've met and some of the books I've read (like how to win friends and influence people) help, asking permission isn't hard- even if you just get a business card with an address on it, saying you are allowed there. the best thing you can do so you don't get booted out of places is smile, be friendly, be inquisitive about the people you meet. you could have went over the the coach and when they were on a break and told him/her that you had permission to be there (said with a smile) and prevented them calling in the law to hassle you. most times when kids are around it's best to not be around- parents are protective to the point of being annoying. besides the brats are usually really annoying to detect around also. ...

usually when I see kids I move to the other end of the park- or vacate to a better park- if your in the metro area it's likely you have a ton of other choices. don't take this the wrong way man, I'm only thinking this might be helpful, besides the more people you talk to and are friendly with the more chances you can detect on their property also. you never know. take care man, and the gold ring find was impressive also. good deal. I haven't found much but clad lately- always be thankful of good finds when you get them! rock on.

 

[jeff of pa]

last time I Was at a field,
& People showed up to use it,
We packed up & Made it known
we were leaving, so we wouldn't
Distract the kids.

when they step on a field it's theirs.
They probably have contracts


My Guess what Happened, They came to use the Field
& The kids were more intrested in what you were doing.
& Not paying attention.

They called the super, & He said
No I Didn't say he could be there.

One or the other Called the police,
rather then approach you.
(Childish in my opinion,
but would be my guess)

& This is why the "ociffer"
told you you didn't have permission.

in the meantime,
The super did some research, in case you
showed up, either because your friend
called & Tried to put a good word
in or simply so he would
have an excuse for future problems.

I Doubt 99% of the non detecting public
would come up with the excuses he gave,
unless he was related to an Archie,
or researched excuses

"There could be Civil War belt buckles out there."
"You can't metal detect on National Forest land either."
"The stuff you may find in the ground is public property and you can't have it." ? he got that somewere

 

[zincmaster]

if there was a peewee practice, you should have just waited until it was over and everyone left. thats the rule where i live, they just dont want you getting in the way, and its easier just to come back later. gl in all your future digs.

 

[ivan salis]

no tresspassing laws must be enforced equally or else the school board , cops and city are opening themselves up to a lawsuit * all someone has to do is video a cop pulling up to you chatting and letting you stay and detect , then show a group of mexicans getting driven off not being allowed to play soccer -- unequal treatment = racist lawsuit .

however not wishing to say that -- the just say no kicks in with any "excuse" availible.

you waited to get permission until there was a "problem" --so "permission denied"--always get the "ok" up front that way --it avoids the "problem" and if questions are asked * --the answer comes back --yah I told him it was ok

as another has said -- the kids at pee wee football practice were most likely distracted by what you were doing (kids are nosey) and thus the coach most likely got pizzed off and whined * also schools are very careful when kids are around about "who" is around em --child abductors and molesters are often clever (as well as sick and twisted) and use various ploys to get close to children to grab em -- kids are often interested in folks "metal detecting" and a pervert could possibly use this weakness to get at a kid -- thus I'm sure they do not want any "strangers" around when the kids are practicing as a "safety issue"