Cops ran me off last night. Need advice for further action.

[Tom_in_CA]

Although Mfitzy111 says it, I'd like to emphasize that his admonition to get permission "in writing" was only for places where access isn't allowed, or the hobby was specifically disallowed. That is: this "permission in writing" thing is not for parks where access wasn't disallowed, and detecting was not prohibited. In the context of this post, it was for a school which had "no trespassing" signs.

Personally (here in CA anyhow, but perhaps true in other states), those signs at fenced school yards mean next to nothing, and no one who's going there after hours (here in CA anyhow) "asks" to use the basketball hoops, jog the track, etc.... They're just the obligatory signs to prevent someone from suing when the fall off the swings. But ...... sure ....... if you still want to get permission to be on the school yard after hours, so be it (which you did). But other than that, the "permission in writing" thing is only for places where it is needed. Because otherwise, to ask a bureacrat to give you written permission to hunt an open park, where it wasn't disallowed to begin with, is the fastest way to get a "no", where no one ever had a problem before.

Because when you think of it, the mere fact of someone putting a contract on their desk to sign for "permission", merely conjurs up legal issues, problems, damage, etc... (lest, why else would you have asked, if something weren't inherently wrong with your hobby, to begin with?). Thus save this "permission in writing" thing for places where there is express signage, to begin with.

 

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[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Jeff - I do not believe the superintendent "did any research". The impression I got from the conversation I had with him was that this was the first he had heard of me or the issue of MD'ing at this school. He was just making up stuff as he went along and I could tell.

I'm sure the people making trouble for me that day was one of the hick football coaches. I probably should have been wearing headphones, as the little brats may have been distracted by the noise the Delta makes when in pinpoint mode. It sounds like a goat being tortured. At the same time, it's not my fault their kids suck at football and have the attention spans of goldfish.

Again, my frustration lies in the fact that it seems like I am being f'd with by people who have nothing better to do than mess with hobbyists. Metal detecting is not a crime - at least not here and not yet. As some posters have mentioned, activities like flying a kite, practicing football, or throwing a frisbee at these places are tolerated. Rather than being forced to submit to some law or ordinance I feel as though I am being unjustly treated due to someones personal whim. If the signs are posted to keep vagrants, drug addicts, and pedos off the property I'm OK with that. It's just that I do not fall into any of those categories and I don't enjoy being treated as such.

In my younger and wilder days I was harassed by authority figures for doing things which were, in retrospect, quite foolish and deserving of scrutiny. Now that I have decided to pursue a harmless and benign hobby such as metal detecting in my old age, I am again being messed with by these same types of people (cops, school administrators, jocks, rednecks, ect.) and it is quite frustrating to say the least. Maybe it's bad karma or something.........

Again, I WILL be returning to this site, permission granted or not. I am aware there are probably other places to go, but this one has proved itself to be a fruitful hunting ground and I haven't even been over 10% of the property. I'm just going to put it on the back burner for a while and return at a later date. I'm sure there are plenty of other PUBLIC places that I can seek out and get chased away from in the meantime. I'm just going to let a few weeks or months pass by and pick and choose the times I am out there more carefully. Worst case scenario is I get arrested for trespassing which I don't believe is a felony and would not hold up in court anyway given the circumstances. I have a friend who is an attorney who helps me out so the legal fees probably wouldn't amount to much. If I have to martyr myself at the alter of justice for this hobby then so be it. I would be a lot more worried if I knew I was wrong, which I am clearly NOT.

 

[mts]

You need to understand that a school is not "public use property". There are many such properties out there. So many people believe that if it was bought and paid for by taxpayer's money then they have the right to use it for whatever they see fit. The reality is that you are only allowed to use these properties if the government or local authorities say that you can.

Just because someone wants to risk it and go out and throw a frisbee on school grounds does not mean that they have permission to do so. And just because the school and cops look the other way on such transgressions does not mean that they will not make an example out of someone like you. In general, the schools and cops have better things to do than bust people running on the track, using the tennis courts, and metal detecting around the swings. But that doesn't mean that doing those things is technically legal. The school has to complain in order for something to be done about it.

I guarantee you that the pee-wee football practice was sanctioned by the school. They didn't just go to the school and decide to practice on their field. Doing so would likely have resulted in the cops being called and the schools getting very upset. The local pee-wee teams rent the fields or call the school to reserve the fields. So don't assume that since the pee-wee teams are practicing there that everyone is allowed to use the fields for whatever they want to use them for.
Take what he says with a grain of salt. There is SOME truth to what he says. But on the other hand, he can be very misleading at times and blindly following his advice can land you in jail... or worse.

The idea that "it's public property so I should be able to use it" is one that is mistakenly cited in this forum all the time. It simply isn't true. You can't metal detect the White House lawn, you can't metal detect in the local water treatment facility, and you can't metal detect in the local military base. Yet all of these were paid for with public money. And you can't even metal detect in the park if they decide that they don't want you to.

And despite what Tom wants you to think, whether or not it is posted as such doesn't make one bit of difference legally.

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I'm just going to have to "live on the edge" then.

"Extreme" metal detecting is what I will call it.

Time to embrace the "looters and grave robbers" mantra. Since I am already being treated like a criminal, I may as well start acting like one.

 

[mts]

I'm just going to have to "live on the edge" then.

"Extreme" metal detecting is what I will call it.

Time to embrace the "looters and grave robbers" mantra. Since I am already being treated like a criminal, I may as well start acting like one.

That's absolutely fine. Just to be clear, I'm getting up on my soapbox too. So my apologies to Tom if I seemed insulting. The important point is that you understand the reality of the law. If you understand the law and choose to take an informed risk then I don't see any problem with that. I don't think that there is a huge risk that you are going to be arrested once you know not to push your luck. But if you didn't understand the law and started trying to tell the cop that you had every right to be there then the odds go up that the cop could get perturbed and decide to make an example out of you.

I also don't think you did anything wrong by leaving before. Tom has a hang up where he believes that if you act like you could be doing something wrong then people will think you are truly doing something wrong and act accordingly. There is potentially some truth to this philosophy. But the world is not black and white. And you can't be guaranteed that you won't have the exact opposite effect should you choose to stay and play innocent.

 

[jeff of pa]

I'm sure the people making trouble for me that day was one of the hick football coaches. I probably should have been wearing headphones, as the little brats may have been distracted by the noise the Delta makes when in pinpoint mode. It sounds like a goat being tortured.

Plus add a Little Jealousy.

Every beep could have meant you Profited
off somone elses Loss

Headphones are a Must

 

[Woodsman99]

Although you were on a closed school property was the playing field cut or groomed? Just wondering because I know here they sometimes rent out or book playing fields to little league socker or other activities who book time slots with the school board or parks. It may be that even though you were not near them they didnt like anyone else being there on thier time and dropped a dime.

I dont like to be challenged without something to show, so I sent an email to a nearby city stating what I wanted to do and asking specificaly if there were any bylaws, restricted areas or permits required to MD on city owned public property. The reply was as I expected, No bylaws or restrictions, but they dont condone MD'ing and any damage to playing surfaces or buried infrastructure during my "excavations" (I love that) would be my responsibility for repair. But they never said it was restricted anywhere, and did say no bylaws against it. Just the usual bla bla to hedge their bets. I guess they were concerned I may use my tracked caterpillar pin pointer doncha know. I printed that response and now carry it in my pocket and if challenged show it. I still leave if pressed to avoid a confrontation but at least the challenger has been informed I had a right to be there. If you did not give your name to the office droid perhaps sending an email asking about restrictions on school property or permits required may be beneficial. You may reach someone else who may still have some active brain cells.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

I'm very sorry this happened to you. I can't tell you what to do, but I just move on to another spot and don't let it get you down my friend. I have a spot in NC I had been hunting for a few years with permission. I have found some amazing 18th century finds on the property, and I knew it was a spot no one would ever bother me at, at the time. The lady who lived there was an elderly lady whom I enjoyed speaking with when I was in town detecting. She knew the history of the area and she was always happy to see me. Sadly she passed away last year. Her daughter, in her 50's told me they were fine with me being there... I explained it meant a lot to me and thanked them. It was just a nice quiet place to relax and do some peaceful detecting. One of those spots that you just love to go to. A month or so later I went back to detect, and was quickly greeted by an angry very short, white haired, bearded guy that demanded to know, "just who gave you permission to be here anyway"? I then tried to introduce myself, and explained I had been coming there for 4 years. Once, or sometimes twice a week.. I reached out my hand out to shake his, and he quickly flung his arms behind his back, and told me that he had just purchased the property through the relatives of my friend who previously owned the place. Then he told me not to come back again. ....I was literally heartbroken. Not because of the finds I find there, but because it was a place I really enjoyed going to, just to get away from it all. He then said he didn't take kindly to people on his property period~! No matter what I said, he wouldn't have it. He then showed me his property markers, and the road to exit on, and said, and don't come back! So, I understand how you feel, but he must feel worse treating people like that. I just moved on over to the other side of the road to another section of woods owned by his neighbor, and there is nothing he can do about it. Kill em with kindness my friend

 

[George (MN)]

Maybe your friend on the Board of Education could tell you what activity the signs were meant to prevent. My dad & I detected a high school & found silver, but one time when we came back they had signs "non-school use of property prohibited". So I called them & they gave the phone to the school liaison officer
who told me metal detecting was OK, & that they were just trying to prevent some activity in the parking lot.

I do think you may have been told to leave because the noise from using the detector w/o phones distracted the football players. The man who sold me my
1st detector always detected without headphones (good for business) was asked to leave a park where my dad & I detected many times w/no problems, when there was lots of people, saw police drive in & out.

Another time we detected a park without headphones & a young man just about wanted to do a citizen arrest, saying noise really bothering him, claiming metal detecting illegal in city parks, even comparing us to murderers!

Another time I was detecting a schoolyard on a Sunday. Cops drove around the block about every hour. After about 3 hours, they drove up on the asphalt path, coming within about 6" of running me over! I never looked up or took off my headphones. AFAIK, they never rolled down their window to talk to me. I guess some neighborhood person called police with suspicious person report. I kept on detecting, despite them trying to scare me away.

I know what you meam about GA police, must be huge #s of harmless people in jail. It is barely possible to drive in or out of Atlanta without driving on prison property, according to a map I have. Best wishes, George (MN)

 

[stefen]

You're putout because the Super peed in your Cherrios...

Next time, be better prepared and have a thermos of coffee and some fresh donuts on hand...

Then employ the 'Good Ole Boy' routine when the police arrive...

One smell of the coffee-n-Nuts and you'd have a friend for life...

Problem solved.

Otherwise, as Jeff of PA and others have stated, you're done!

And besides, if you turn the "Battle into a War", you may have expended a lot of money, effort and testosterone, and only find a few pennies.

Boy, that'd make my day.

Yessiree

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Boy, that'd make my day.

Yessiree

Still butthurt over the "ugly people" thread I see.....

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Fixing to head back out there as we speak. I am going to try and hunt until dark. If I am not back by 9:00 PM I have instructed a fellow member to contact my next of kin and attorney.

HH to all!

(except the ladies present in this thread with faces that would make a freight train take a dirt road)

 

[stefen]

Boy, that'd make my day.

Yessiree

Still butthurt over the "ugly people" thread I see.....

Could be that the local fuzz have keyed into yer trolling gig

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

I made it back. No trouble this time, but only got some clad and pull tabs. Next scheduled run will be on Saturday morning.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

mts, no apologies needed (but thanx for the re-assurance ). This is what open-discussion is for, to learn the pros & con's of each angle, afterall.

Yes, just because a property is public, doesn't mean you and I can "use the property as we see fit". This statement is not only true of a public fenced lot w/a "no trespassing" sign. It is also true of levels of public land where people are explicitly invited (parks for instance). So ......... yes: Hombre can not "do as he pleases" at this abandoned school, NOT just because it had "no trespassing" signs (yet was still public property), but the same rule that we "can not do as we please", is ALSO true even at parks where the public is explicity allowed.

For example, even though there might be no prohibitions against skipping stones on the pond, a cop or ranger might say "I think you'll hurt the minnows or seagulls, so you'll have to stop that" And to back up his edict, he would point to "disturbance of wildlife" rules, or whatever (morphed to apply to the skipping of stones). And the person skipping stones is welcome to challenge that, and make a stink, but it would be an uphill battle, since ........ those public employees are tasked with interpretting rules to fit a myriad of situations as they arise (lest everyone would be arguing semantics all day long), is a part of their job duties.

Thus, not only is your statement true of fenced schools, but is also true of anywhere. And to go a step further, there doesn't even simply need to be "no prohibitions against detecting", since we all know there's a MULTITUDE of other things any cop or gardener or ranger can morph to apply to us: digging/disturbance rules, lost & found rules, no-collecting verbage, cultural heritage verbage, etc... etc.....

So your statements are utterly correct.

You say: " In general, the schools and cops have better things to do than bust people running on the track, using the tennis courts, and metal detecting around the swings. But that doesn't mean that doing those things is technically legal "

Right! And nor does it mean that they are technically ILLEGAL either. They become a "non-addressed" item, where I FEEL ....... that being the case, that we should NOT "ask permission" for, lest we merely get "no's" where no one really cared or would have paid you any mind, UNTIL you ask.

Next you say: "blindly following [Tom's] advice can land you in jail... or worse..... " but then add: "I don't think that there is a huge risk that you are going to be arrested"

Well, I was about to ask my usual "please give us a single example of someone 'going to jail' for detecting a spot like this??" Because any example is usually always someone night-sneaking historic monuments, or persons who can't take a warning, or some other such nuisance. But with your added comment that even you admit that it is remote, I believe that you too see that this "jail" and "confiscations" lines are simply not going to be a part of Hombres scenario (where he had permission afterall, for pete's sake!). So why these "jail" and "confiscations" reactions come out whenever the subject comes up (for some of the most mundane innocuous locations) still confuses me.

 

[mts]

Tom, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Very well put. It seems we agree much more than I realized.

To answer your specific question about being arrested: Although I can believe that it is not very likely that hombre would be arrested, I can't rule it out entirely. It all depends on what the cop's mood is, whether or not the school is adamant about making an example out of him, how hombre acts, and many other factors. Therefore, I think it is prudent to point out that he could indeed be arrested. Some people are of the mistaken belief that it would be impossible for such a thing to happen just because they are on what they consider to be "public land". Once he understands the risks then it's up to him to decide if detecting there is worth it. To not point out that he is potentially doing something that the police could construe as breaking the law could be dangerous. Finally, given that in this particular case it is clearly posted that no tresspassing is allowed, hombre's chances of being arrested without warning go up significantly. But even so, I think it is pretty safe to detect there as long as he plays his cards right and doesn't push things.

Thanks for the comment. I promise in the future to not claim that you are getting up on a soap box. That would make me a hypocrite.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok, good compromise. thanx.

And you're right: anything *could* happen. I mean, so too do we sometimes read or hear about a motorist getting roughed up by an over-zealous cop, and having the book fully thrown at him, for nothing but a tail-light out. I mean, sure, it *could* happen. But as you conclude, statistics are showing that the average guy plying the beach or school yard is not being thrown in jail, having his machine confiscated, fined, etc..... In fact, I don't think there's any such examples, even though it *could* happen. Each person has their own risk threshold. My wife goes out and buys insurance for everything, $0 deductibles on everything, and pays the higher premiums. Why? Because she'll answer "what if something happens?". She even buys flight insurance for a cool $40 more, for a mere 45 minute plane flight hop. Why? "Because the plane might crash." It drives me nuts, but I've come to realize that some people are just that safe, and consider any odds, no matter how remote, as something that "might happen".

 

[ok2raise]

This is something that everybody might be interested in about hunting schools & park even with permision. Any time kids are their its best to move on. I was president of a athletic Acc. we had a by law in place about anyone being on the grounds when kids are present. Only parents & kin, teachers & coaches were allowed. no exceptions during the time that kids are their. But when kids are gone anyone can hunt. Its just parents dont was a stranger around doing something they know nothing about

 

[Monty]

I am a retired cop just to let you know where I am coming from......... You did the right thing in not arguing with the cop at the time. But a person with any smarts at all knows the difference in arguing and discussing a problem. Arguing gets you no where. `And as a former cop, I too have been approached by various folks suggesting to me that I couldn't detect there. I often got off the hook by joking with them and if you can get one laugh out of them you are usually there to stay. I was detecting around an athleltic field house when I was approached by the maintenance supervisor whose intent was to shoo me off. He asked if I knew I was on school property. And with a big grin I replied that I sure did know it because I paid for a small part of it. I told him I probably paid 3 or 4 dollars in tax money on it and jokingly asked if I could just stay and detect 3 or 4 dollars worth. That got him laughing and I knew he was mine. Then I led the conversation to my equipment and was showing and explaining how the detector worked, and even had him trying it out for a minute or two. Finally he asked if he could call me next time he needed to locate a buried shut off valve for the water or natural gas. He said he had a devil of a time finding them in an emergency. We traded phone numbers and I once had him come and unlock a gate for me to get access to an area where I found a couple of silver rings.
As a group cops usually have a great sense of humor even though they are tought at the academy to use an" authoritative" voice tone when talking to a person on official police business. And I guarantee if you can get a smile out of a cop you will usually come out OK. Monty

 

[hombre_de_plata_flaco]

Much to steffie's dismay, the Hombre still isn't "done" quite yet.

I went back again this AM but didn't stay too long due to some welcome rain. We have been having some scattered showers here the last 24 hrs. I would have stayed longer if I had wrapped the control unit of the Delta in some saran wrap before I left the house. I hunted in some misting rain with it wrapped up like that once and it came out unscathed. Only got in about 45 min of swinging and again I only found more pull tabs and a rock that had been wrapped in tin foil. Why the hell would anyone wrap a rock up in foil? I spent 10 minutes digging for that piece of trash.

Thanks for the advice there Monty. I don't feel the same way about the coppers as I did in my younger days. I have had 2 encounters with police at this place so far, and I'm not upset with either of them. The first one just wanted to chat and see what I had dug. I had found a bunch of quarters and pull tabs that day. He was cool. The second po-po was the one that chased me off. He was nice too, it was just that he had been forced to do the bidding of the evil peewee football parents. Wasn't his fault. He was just doing his job. Cops are fine by me but transplant a-hole school supers can go to H-E-double hockey sticks.