Desert markers and symbols

[sdcfia]

That big darker rock does kinda look like a skull - a classic KGC symbol.

The odds of nearly being struck by a falling rock greater than pebble-sized in steep or even vertical terrain are incalculably small, I'd say.

 

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[Maverick1]

I trying to decide what to say. The trail isn't just one direction. It starts in an easterly direction and then heads south and winds back a bit to the west. I believe it is an intersection in the sense that there are multiple directions to head from the basin where the glyphs are. The area is rugged and although traveling overland can be done, there are natural routes that make travel easier. There may have been a time when wagons could have been maneuvered close to the vault area, but not today. Even a very experienced guy on a dirt bike (me) couldn't find a route in to the vault area that wasn't dangerous and not worth it. So basically I think the broader area could easily have been, actually was, a way point for nomadic people or traveling expeditions. One could probably eek out a long term existence there even, but wow what a rough life that would be. Yes, there are sources of water.

With that said, the vault area would have been an area that you went to for other more specific reasons. It is steep, rocky, ledged in, even a bit dangerous. I have seen rocks fall down the 300+ft almost vertical hills and ledges a couple of times. One day I had a softball sized rock almost hit me and my dog when we were walking below a 30ft ledge - it can from above the ledge not off the ledge. If I was a bit more paranoid I would have thought it was thrown at us based on it's trajectory and speed. There is a "spookiness" to the canyon with the vault. Not by the glyphs, but out by the vault area. The more time you spend there the more you feel uneasy. There is kind of a feeling of being watched. I am not trying to be dramatic or anything like that. I think it is a function of being kind of enclosed by steep rocky ledges in a remote area and knowing you are at the mercy of mother nature, but I also like to be out there. The area is mineral rich in some ways, but I have never heard of any large gold deposits there. But I just got a lead an a potential in that regard so I don't know. Of course gold is often found in the strangest places anyway. And quartz and iron, yes they are there. Some silver and copper too.

Check out this large boulder overlooking the vault area. It is strange and probably contributes to the feeling of being watched. I call it skull rock. haha. It sits about 40ft above on a ledge and "looks" back down at the turtle and hearts.

Wow,…..major vault area. Wow again.
Double chambered and very deep. If you haven’t done that already, it would be a good idea to do a 360 (twice) all around the skull and take two sets of pictures: first, from afar showing general contours including the surrounding/adjacent rocks,…and….second: close in for details and close-up messages. It may not be easy, but try to keep the same angle of viewing both close-ups and wider angle. Later, by comparing the same image (close and far) you will be able to figure out their intended meaning.
You probably know how important this ‘documentation’ is for getting your bearings. The more pictures, the better will be for your future determination (if the terrain permits, also if/when weather cooperates). If any vegetation is blocking your field of view, …. you’ll know what to do. Unobstructed pictures are the best (as you will need to distinguish between carved marks/signs and stained or painted marks/signs)
Everything else looks amazingly well kept by its own remoteness. Be safe and extremely careful where you step. A knee-high pair of snake proof boots (with rubber soles) should keep your footing steady and safe from scratches on sharp rocks and thorny knee-high vegetation. Out there, everything hurts and nothing is your friend.
It seems that you have had already a taste of the “power” of these kind of remote sites have on your perceptions and how hard is to keep a leveled head. Knowing that, should be the reason to do your best study in the safety and comfort of home via pictures. While in the field, you have too much on your plate between physical effort, safety concerns and still keep a level head for detailed observation. And then, is the issue of certain marks and signs that are only visible through a lens.
A trustworthy partner sounds good right now, but those are hard to come by.
Best of luck to you, as you have a wonderful challenge and your hands full.
Regards.

 

[cyzak]

Hello I to am new to this forum to, I do a lot of expeditions in Colorado I to go by myself because I trust no one. I want to suggest to you that you get the book Waybill to Lost Spanish Mines and Treasures it is by Gale R Rhodes it is hard to find and expensive but it will tell you everything you need to know with what you are involved in. I to get an uneasy feeling when out in the wild in certain places just keep your head on a swivel.

 

[Alpha137]

That big darker rock does kinda look like a skull - a classic KGC symbol.

The odds of nearly being struck by a falling rock greater than pebble-sized in steep or even vertical terrain are incalculably small, I'd say.

My dogs did not like the area one bit. Both are super alert. They actually went snarls and teeth in the area behind where the rock almost hit me, right before the incident and nothing was there. I chalked it up to a lizard at the time, but I didn't see it. Still think it probably was a lizard. It is funny how certain things possibly seem more important once it has been processed for awhile. I took a picture of it later. Nothing too interesting in it, just documentation. My male basically climbed up into the wedged rocks and it was hard to get him down and to calm both dogs down.

 

[cyzak]

I have spent some time around the area were the Dolores river runs into the Colorado there are quite a few Bob Cats believe it or not in that area could have been one of those critters. They are super fast and really sneaky it is good you have the dogs they can sense things we cant.

 

[Alpha137]

Hello I to am new to this forum to, I do a lot of expeditions in Colorado I to go by myself because I trust no one. I want to suggest to you that you get the book Waybill to Lost Spanish Mines and Treasures it is by Gale R Rhodes it is hard to find and expensive but it will tell you everything you need to know with what you are involved in. I to get an uneasy feeling when out in the wild in certain places just keep your head on a swivel.

Head on a swivel...that is my life. haha. You aren't kidding about the Waybill book, pricey. I have seen it before. It would be good to find an exploration partner, but people are disappointing way too often. Gotta be careful, but hard work and lack of knowledge keep some people honest.

 

[cyzak]

I know the book is expensive but it will tell you what you need to know it has helped me a lot with figuring the signs out. All of his research was in Utah so it goes along with what you are finding. Believe me what we do is not easy it is full of deception the Spaniards did this on purpose they had many years of learning the ways of trickery. I have always kept my explorations secret I have just started asking questions to professionals on this forum believe me it has hurt me in my explorations not getting advice from some one who has spent some time in the field to.

 

[cyzak]

You might be able to find that book at the library or ask them to check there other library's for you then you could just photo copy the important items in it.

 

[Alpha137]

You might be able to find that book at the library or ask them to check there other library's for you then you could just photo copy the important items in it.

I am looking at libraries now. haha. As far as getting advice on here goes, it is a bit scary in the sense that you do not know who you are talking to and you do not want to give real clues into where the area is. Maybe I have on accident and maybe I haven't, but it is something to think about.

 

[boogeyman]

Have you thought of a pocket scanner? I got a Pandigital one as a gift. You can self feed pages or remove the top to hand scan. Wish I'd gotten it years ago! Takes a SD card so makes it easy that way.

Also a ways back you showed a mercury symbol and I was thinking I heard / saw somewhere that sign would be a man looking left As you face it. Have you applied this to it? Or did I miss something in the fog.......

 

[sdcfia]

I am looking at libraries now. haha. As far as getting advice on here goes, it is a bit scary in the sense that you do not know who you are talking to and you do not want to give real clues into where the area is. Maybe I have on accident and maybe I haven't, but it is something to think about.

I personally don't believe you'll find the answers you seek in these sorts of books, especially those dealing with Utah stuff. However, if you insist on throwing your money away, at least you should minimize the damage: https://www.high-lonesomebooks.com/...s/waybill-to-lost-spanish-mines-and-treasures

 

[cyzak]

Ok sdcfia you got my attention how would a person proceed with the info that alpha has I really want to hear this explanation.

 

[Alpha137]

I personally don't believe you'll find the answers you seek in these sorts of books, especially those dealing with Utah stuff. However, if you insist on throwing your money away, at least you should minimize the damage: https://www.high-lonesomebooks.com/...s/waybill-to-lost-spanish-mines-and-treasures

That is true if you are correct about each miner using personal markings. I am not saying you are wrong, btw. Just saying if there was a system there could consistencies between sites in CO, AZ, NV, and UT etc... If not then it would be a waste of time as you said. I am sure that debate has been had in other threads before. But you make several good points. And no way am I spending $200 or more on that book, that is a new coil or something, but I would read through a copy at the public library. I found one in CO and AZ.

 

[Alpha137]

Have you thought of a pocket scanner? I got a Pandigital one as a gift. You can self feed pages or remove the top to hand scan. Wish I'd gotten it years ago! Takes a SD card so makes it easy that way.

Also a ways back you showed a mercury symbol and I was thinking I heard / saw somewhere that sign would be a man looking left As you face it. Have you applied this to it? Or did I miss something in the fog.......

I had not thought about a pocket scanner. Could be useful in a number of ways and at the library. I think that picture is more about substance and retrieval of minerals then direction, but I could be wrong.

 

[sdcfia]

That is true if you are correct about each miner using personal markings. I am not saying you are wrong, btw. Just saying if there was a system there could consistencies between sites in CO, AZ, NV, and UT etc... If not then it would be a waste of time as you said. I am sure that debate has been had in other threads before. But you make several good points. And no way am I spending $200 or more on that book, that is a new coil or something, but I would read through a copy at the public library. I found one in CO and AZ.

Well, the idea that there is a "system" is very appealing to folks who find oddities in the hills that they think may suggest a concealed mine or a cache of valuables nearby. There are plenty of publications for $ale that support that idea. It made sense to me for years too, but for me now, the "Spanish treasure" concept is irrational on many levels. Your mileage may vary.

Some of the stuff you've revealed is interesting: the pile of "backfill" below the white heart, the turtle, the pointing man, the skull rock. You can play with these things (and presumably others you've kept private) in all sorts of ways, but at some point, I imagine you want to try to uncover something of value. Why else are you there? For me - a practical guy - until I had a better plan, I'd be uncovering that pile below the white heart. At least then you can rule out that spot.

 

[Secret squirl]

Well, the idea that there is a "system" is very appealing to folks who find oddities in the hills that they think may suggest a concealed mine or a cache of valuables nearby. There are plenty of publications for $ale that support that idea. It made sense to me for years too, but for me now, the "Spanish treasure" concept is irrational on many levels. Your mileage may vary.

Some of the stuff you've revealed is interesting: the pile of "backfill" below the white heart, the turtle, the pointing man, the skull rock. You can play with these things (and presumably others you've kept private) in all sorts of ways, but at some point, I imagine you want to try to uncover something of value. Why else are you there? For me - a practical guy - until I had a better plan, I'd be uncovering that pile below the white heart. At least then you can rule out that spot.

Why is the idea that the spanish hid treasures irrational? It is clear they were here. If they were collecting 20% tax from a large area, they could not transport it all fast enough beck to ports to ship to Spain. So can you explain your opinion in more detail?

 

[Alpha137]

Well, the idea that there is a "system" is very appealing to folks who find oddities in the hills that they think may suggest a concealed mine or a cache of valuables nearby. There are plenty of publications for $ale that support that idea. It made sense to me for years too, but for me now, the "Spanish treasure" concept is irrational on many levels. Your mileage may vary.

Some of the stuff you've revealed is interesting: the pile of "backfill" below the white heart, the turtle, the pointing man, the skull rock. You can play with these things (and presumably others you've kept private) in all sorts of ways, but at some point, I imagine you want to try to uncover something of value. Why else are you there? For me - a practical guy - until I had a better plan, I'd be uncovering that pile below the white heart. At least then you can rule out that spot.

I agree, at some point a person has to be practical and do some hands on searching using what is available. A person could beat the info, right in front them, to death and never get anywhere because they got lost in the what ifs and the nuanced fog of ideas. As far as systems go, the human brain likes the idea that all things have a logical foundation or conclusion based an a preset guide of established rules. While that statement does apply to many things it does not mean that every instance is going to follow the known, or suspected, logic when it comes to human endeavors. There is logic involved in treasure hunting for sure, but if it is based on the logic of one individual, or a small group of individuals, then there more than likely will not be systematic rules to follow applied to a specific theme or cache site based off information from other distant sites. For sure that would be a good PHD thesis and research project using resources backed by a university. Which makes it all the more enticing for many to try to piece together information from various places and people who have had success. Btw, that brings up a question. Is there any proof of success anywhere out there? I know that people have found treasure and stuff, but I have not seen any published finds that match this type of site. I assume that is because people want to keep it quiet, but it could also mean there hasn't been much success. Or have I just missed it?

Edit Note: I am not saying the idea that a system exists is wrong. I can see the logic and ideas behind that theory. I can also see the logic behind there being just a site with personal markers. Although the consistencies from all these sites does beg the question of why, if there is not a common set of rules.

 

[sdcfia]

Why is the idea that the spanish hid treasures irrational? It is clear they were here. If they were collecting 20% tax from a large area, they could not transport it all fast enough beck to ports to ship to Spain. So can you explain your opinion in more detail?

1) Very little Spanish mining in today's USA. I'll bet you can't verify a dozen Spanish mining sites (pre 1821) in today's USA. Why? Because except for a couple sites at Santa Rita NM, a few just south of Santa Fe NM, a few in southern CO (operated out of Santa Fe), and possibly a couple near the MX/AZ border region, there weren't any. The reason these sites existed in the first place is because the Spanish had already colonized NM and had a presence there. Besides, the private mining contractors from MX - who owned the mines (not the King) - had much better prospects in central MX and a bit north.

2) Why leave your bullion in terra obscura? Why go to the expense of putting together a mining expedition lasting months in a dangerous, uncharted territory, then leave the bullion behind when you return to MX? Would you leave the hard-earned fruits of your labor in some remote canyon, figuring that some day you might go back and get it? I wouldn't. This goes for legal mining operations and also illegal free agent wildcatters.

3) What about the quinto generated at the genuine sites? Keeping in mind that almost all of the Crown's tax payment was generated in MX, it was paid to the Crown or its agents in bullion. The payment was not a treasure map and a "Go find it." It's irrational to believe that the King of Spain would accept an IOU and a map in lieu of hard cash for tax payments - and then send his own people at his expense into remote mountains to search for it. Huh-uh.

4) What about Mexican miners? The Mexican period 1821-1848: more activity in the USA, yes, but why would these miners bury their bullion instead of taking it with them returning to MX? Would you leave all your money behind?

 

[Alpha137]

1) Very little Spanish mining in today's USA. I'll bet you can't verify a dozen Spanish mining sites (pre 1821) in today's USA. Why? Because except for a couple sites at Santa Rita NM, a few just south of Santa Fe NM, a few in southern CO (operated out of Santa Fe), and possibly a couple near the MX/AZ border region, there weren't any. The reason these sites existed in the first place is because the Spanish had already colonized NM and had a presence there. Besides, the private mining contractors from MX - who owned the mines (not the King) - had much better prospects in central MX and a bit north.

2) Why leave your bullion in terra obscura? Why go to the expense of putting together a mining expedition lasting months in a dangerous, uncharted territory, then leave the bullion behind when you return to MX? Would you leave the hard-earned fruits of your labor in some remote canyon, figuring that some day you might go back and get it? I wouldn't. This goes for legal mining operations and also illegal free agent wildcatters.

3) What about the quinto generated at the genuine sites? Keeping in mind that almost all of the Crown's tax payment was generated in MX, it was paid to the Crown or its agents in bullion. The payment was not a treasure map and a "Go find it." It's irrational to believe that the King of Spain would accept an IOU and a map in lieu of hard cash for tax payments - and then send his own people at his expense into remote mountains to search for it. Huh-uh.

4) What about Mexican miners? The Mexican period 1821-1848: more activity in the USA, yes, but why would these miners bury their bullion instead of taking it with them returning to MX? Would you leave all your money behind?

Interesting. I can't argue with your statements really. I like this, it is part of what I am after here searching for ideas, opinions, and experience. Thank you. One caveat though. They could have buried it for the same reasons people buried valuables and money in the backyard when they left their home for various reasons. To hide it and retrieve it later. Consider it a primitive form of a safety deposit box. There is also the possibility that for some reason they couldn't take the majority of it when they left. Or it was in ore form and needed to be refined after a seasonal break or something. I could assume that in arid desert regions there could be an off season in the middle of the summer. If it was a small expedition that retrieved thousands of pounds of ore in a remote area, it would stand to reason that it could not be moved in one trip or need to be refined later. Same with more refined heavy gold or silver. Just speculation.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree, at some point a person has to be practical and do some hands on searching using what is available. A person could beat the info, right in front them, to death and never get anywhere because they got lost in the what ifs and the nuanced fog of ideas. As far as systems go, the human brain likes the idea that all things have a logical foundation or conclusion based an a preset guide of established rules. While that statement does apply to many things it does not mean that every instance is going to follow the known, or suspected, logic when it comes to human endeavors. There is logic involved in treasure hunting for sure, but if it is based on the logic of one individual, or a small group of individuals, then there more than likely will not be systematic rules to follow applied to a specific theme or cache site based off information from other distant sites. For sure that would be a good PHD thesis and research project using resources backed by a university. Which makes it all the more inciting for many to try to piece together information from various places and people who have had success. Btw, that brings up a question. Is there any proof of success anywhere out there? I know that people have found treasure and stuff, but I have not seen any published finds that match this type of site. I assume that is because people want to keep it quiet, but it could also mean there hasn't been much success. Or have I just missed it?

Edit Note: I am not saying the idea that the system exists is wrong. I can see the logic and ideas behind that theory. I can also see the logic behind there being just a site with personal markers. Although the consistencies from all these sites does beg the question of why, if there is not a common set of rules.

Remember, the King did not own the mines. Each mine was the possession of the private contractor who financed the expedition, discovered the deposit, mined it and concentrated the ore and possibly refined the bullion. The miner owed 20% of his proceeds to the Crown, which he paid in ore concentrates or bullion when he returned to Mexico with the spoils of his efforts. Do you believe such a person would leave all his profit buried in the wilderness before he returned home? Do you believe the King of Spain would not expect to be paid his share? Yes, occasionally the contractor would conceal the mine at the end of the season to protect its location prior to his next return, but there's no reason he would not take the season's proceeds home with him.

Now, re bonafide caches, that's another story - one that has more to do with the Gold Act of 1933 than "Spanish treasure," IMO. Your job doesn't change - you still look for clues, scratch your head and wonder what it all means. Here is where a "system" does come into play. That system jacks treasure hunting up from simple Spanish stashes into a very complex world of subtleties designed to run you in circles. Even the best analysts go a little crazy with it because those who created the system did it to mess with your mind. It can be a rabbit hole - good luck.