Disability and detecting???

[abeach01]

Hello, does anyone know if water detecting could jeopardize disability benefits?? I have had 6 back surgeries and numerous other surgeries and water detect now dealing with alot of pain. If not for water hunting I may not even walk. I am being faced with job loss following the most recent back surgery and I am considering fighting for work comp second injury fund full disability however it is time consuming and I would have to forfeit unemployment compensation to try for it. I do not want to fight for it then for it to be revoked because I enjoy a hobby. Any help on disability info and or if anyone has dealt with a similar scenario. Thanks so much

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

The main problem with this question is..........many people do not get what disability (and/or comp) is really about. It's not about being a paraplegic 24 hours a day. Only people who have dealt with actual disabilities - whether personally, or from another perspective (like being a nurse or a therapist) can really grasp the concepts involved in this question.

Because I have been involved in this, for years - I know that, being disabled has absolutely nothing to do with what you are doing at the moment, but, rather, what effect that action has on you, longer term.

I remember going to court with someone, who was going for disability (he couldn't drive because of meds), and the judge was asking him - can you
lift 5 pounds? Answer - yes. Can you lift 10 pounds - Answer - yes. This line of questions continued in 5 pound increments until the judge reached about 20 or 25 pounds. The gentleman then said something that I really remember, like it was yesterday. He said, "Your honor, I can lift 100 pounds, all day long. But, after that day, I will be not be able to move for the rest of the month". (he was telling the truth, and he got his disability).

However, truth be told - you see these insurance company "detectives", catching someone who is disabled moving furniture or whatever, and they will lose their benefits - when, truth be told, who knows what happens to this person after he helped someone move? Maybe, like the man I took to court, that guy won't be able to move off the couch for the next 3 weeks. Maybe he took 3 pain pills so he could help his friend who just lost his wife, move out of their home. Who knows? And, frankly, they don't care if, one day out of 365, you did something above and beyond your abilities. Everyone immediately says "he's a fraud" or, "she's a criminal" or whatever. They make their decisions based on a couple of photographs, and no real investigations. Their job (especially if you are talking about workmen's comp-they are the worst), is to "catch" someone.
Their job is to sit for days and days and days, and watch for someone to do something - just once.

On the other hand - if you have been injured at work, you owe it to yourself to consider carefully what is most important - if you are going to have long-term effects, if your medication costs are out of sight - if it is going to affect your quality of life - then you need to do what is right for you. The other thing to consider is, what about when unemployment runs out? Are you going to be able to work?

Its not a question that anyone, but you, can answer. I can tell you that workmen's comp claims have the highest percentage of "investigations".
Social Security disability - not so much. (though they can, and do, follow-ups every now and then). Regular disability, the type that you get from your employer that is NOT workmens comp - are pretty much ok with what-ever your doctor says. (this type of disability does not go on the company records, so they don't really care).

Clear as mud, huh?

Beth

 

[Diver_Down]

Forget about detecting if you are going to pursue benefits, even after you have been awarded the benefits.

First hand account: My mother had carpal tunnel. In the early eighties, she was sent to a company doctor to have surgery. Surgery didn't work and she ended up worse. Went out on worker's comp. For the next 20 years, she had to continue to prove her claim in order for the courts to force her employer to pay her medical bills and prescriptions. Her employer is a large paper making/cosmetic/food manufacturing company (think "Don't squeeze the Charmin"). Once about 10 years into her worker's comp, she was photographed carrying a laundry basket at home. We lived on 5 acres in the country with the nearest neighbors miles away. The one county road bordered near our property. The investigator had been tasked with staking out the property line for days to catch the one incident. She never did lose her benefits, in fact, it was only after the 20+ years did they finally settle her claim and she "retired".

 

[Sandman]

Forget the hobby if you like to have an income to buy food and meds. Listen to Mrs. Orobanco, as they will photo you even walking and claim you are well.

 

[Bobbie]

If you are able to enjoy your hobby then go to work and forget about disability benefits. The first time you apply you will be rejected and then you have to appeal.......keep in mind that the investigators are out there with high powered digital lenses on their cameras. It takes years of seeing the doctors they want you to see, surgery that they have to approve and many questions that can make a person very angry. If and when you get it, unless you can retire, it is not worth the aggravation because you may only end up with a percentage and have to be retrained for another job. Disability is not a free meal ticket like everyone seems to think.

 

[Silver Surfer]

I have been on both sides of this issue and it is not an easy thing to figure out.. I actually ran a large Medical division for a corporation (IBP inc) and saw it all... There are a lot of people out there trying to win the disability lotto, that is a fact.. And unfortunately, they are the ones that have f'ked it up for all of those that really have a serious condition that hampers their ability to work.. Many times it is very hard to determine just who needs help from those that simply want to quit working.. So blame can go all the way around for how screwed up it all is now...
Latest statistics show that every 1 in 6 Americans are getting some sort of aid from the Govt.... Makes you wonder how our grandparents and their grandparents ever made it without help...
So now to me... I am an Emergency Room Nurse, or was... Never went to the doctor for anything.. Learned to really dislike many that came to the ER that were "disabled".. Many would almost brag about how much they got, but still worked under the table.. They would actually say "well this is what I was doing, but dont put it on your report, cause they cant know I was working".... Seriously, I cant even count the numeber of them that did that..
And then all of those that admitted that they just had to "build a really big medical file", so they could get disability... Anyway, back to me..
I got sick in February of 09... I wont bore you with the long details, but they finally figured out the anomaly in my heart and repaired it in January.. BUT, I went from 152lbs to 112lbs, and was bedridden for 4 months.. My lumbar spine went to crap.. Now, every day I take enough meds to knock out a horse.. Seems a nerve is pinched that goes right to my left testicle.
I am going through VR right now, cause the Doctors say I cannot return to Nursing.. I have applied, at the behest of the VR people, for SS.. I almost didnt do it, I just dont feel ready to "retire".. Only 50.. So, maybe going back to school. Also see a Neurosurgeon in Tampa in a couple months..
BUT here is my opinion on the hunting... I am very open to all of the people involved in my case about my hunting.. I also tell them that the water is the only way I can hunt now and be comfortable.. If I am in the water, the weight seems to be lifted off of my spine (we are bouyant after all) and I can actually go for a good 4-5 hrs in the water.. Out of the water, maybe an hour... I do it for exercise, to get me out of the house, and have had the Physical Therapy people, and all of the doctors treating me, tell me they think it is great exercise for me..
Talk it over with you doctor, explain it like I did, about the buoyancy thing, etc., and get your doctor to approve it... Then there is nothing that can be done to screw you..
I feel for anyone that is in this scenario... I would so much rather be back working in my job, making $70k/year, and having benefits paid for, then to be where I am right now... Best of luck to ya..

 

[artyfacts]

You could hurt yourself taking a shower. If water detecting strengthens your resolve go for it... Find a nice privately owned campground swimming hole without the waves and the possibility of a scoundrel snapping pictures of you enjoying the quality's of life. Arty

 

[Smudge]

I wonder if getting a doctor's determination in writing that limited periods of time metal detecting is good physical therapy for your condition would make a difference?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Diver-Down,



That's the EXACT company I was referring to!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I worked there for many years, and they are TENACIOUS about not paying for anything!!!

But, there is a difference between Social Security disability, workmen's compensation and the disability benefits available to you when you buy insurance that is offered through various companies.

When I worked at P&G, because of that disability insurance that is available, when I needed surgery, P&G requested that I not come back until I could come back at full capacity. (they did not want me to come back on light duty), so I was off for 16 weeks, until my surgeon okayed me to go back to full duty (I was a mechanic at the time) I got my disability payments every two weeks, never had an issue - once a month, my doctor would re-check me and update my insurance company.

In contrast, someone I worked with got hurt at work. Being the mechanic at the time, it took me almost 20 minutes to get the arm out of the rollers, as we had to disassemble them. The person went to the hospital, of course, and the rollers had broken her elbow and fractured a wrist.
They had her back to work (in the office) the very next day. She ended up needing surgery for the wrist and elbow - she never missed a day at work except the time she actually had the surgery. They paid her her regular 40 hour check (which is actually a short-change in this case), and
the company only paid workmen's comp for a handful of days. Fast forward, about 18 years - today, as we talk, she has lost all use of her right
arm, and it has withered to about half the size of her other. Two years ago, after dozens and dozens and dozens of court hearings and many other things, the company paid her a lump sum. There is, of course, a lot more to the story, but, the bottom line here is that no company wants to pay workmen's comp. It makes their safety record look bad, it raises their insurance rates, and, it subjects them to government investigations.
The bigger the company, the more money they have to "catch" you doing something that can get them out of it. (lots of larger companies keep lawyers and investigators on the payroll year around, just for this reason).

You do not always get denied the first time on disability - unless you are talking about Social Security disability - then - yep, you will be denied the first time and, if you appeal, the second time. The quickest way to get SS disability is to apply, get denied, and then ask for a court hearing. (skipping the first appeal-which will be denied). And then, unless you have something like end-stage kidney disease, it will still take a year. Once you have SS disability, depending on which type you get (there are two kinds, SSDI, for people who have all their credits, and SSI, which is, technically, federal welfare, which is for disabled folks who either have never worked, or don't have enough credits for regular disability - and there is a combo, SSDI and SSI, for folks who have enough credits, but in low paying type jobs, so their amount is not up to the minimum SS amount).
Then, they are not going to investigate you. It simply means that you cannot do the jobs you used to do, because of injury - and, you are actually allowed to work, as long as you don't go over a certain amount. In SSI, the amount can be adjusted every month, in SSDI, you get 9 months of trying to resume working, without losing benefits, and then, depending on the circumstances, can keep your medical, it can adjust every month - and lots of other things. They will review it on a regular basis, but, if they make you do a full review, and pass their requirements, it is
7 years before they will do another - by law. They very rarely do that, usually, they will send a questionaire, you fill it out and send it back, and they just say ok, they don't need to do a full review. One thing about SSI - besides your home and your car (one car), you are not allowed to
have any more than $2,000 worth of assets. Also, if you have a spouse, their income is counted. Which sounds like a pain, but, if you need a lot of medical treatment, it is worth it, because you do not pay for that, you will qualify for medicaid.

I spent about 7 years taking people for all these things - I have been what the government calls an "advocate" for many folks, so I have learned that they all follow a certain trail - but there are many places for twists and turns. Even folks who are terminal have a pain getting Social Security, though there are a few fast-track items (fast track still means 6 months or so). The one good thing - if you win your case, they will date your
benefits back to the day you applied. SSDI has a 5 month waiting period, SSI, however, will pay for those 5 months, so it is best to apply for both at the same time.

Beth

 

[davest]

after reading these posts, I wonder just how good it would be if we could only relieve the burden from the companies for having to provide any type of recompense for injuries. Once they're not forced to pay, they probly wouldn't care if you carried elephants around in your living room.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[ron lord]

Get your Doctor to wright you a Precrition to hunt in the water. I did he thought it was a good idea, the water takes the wight off your back and releave the pain.With a Precrition the insurance Co. can take all the pictures they want but they won't hold up in court because you a Precrition from your Dr. I did this and the insurance Co. was pisted when the jug throw out all there pictures. S1 throw L3 are blown in my back and C6 and 7 are fused.Pain is my best friend.It's always there!! Don't give up Detecting, I've been doing it for 35 years. Ron Lord ,Naples ,FL

 

[Silver Surfer]

Good info Beth! and Ron is right about getting the ok from your doc..
But Beth, I was told it is retroactive back to the day you had to leave work due to your condition? I hope so, since I waited a year and a half before applying.... I just KNEW I would get better and get back to work...

 

[JRich98150]

Your basically saying you have a back injury and you have had surgery not once but several operations on you back to either correct the situation and/or to ease the back pain. You are also saying one of your hobbies is metal detecting. You are worried that if you still try to enjoy your hobby you might need stay working to do so. You are considering the option between taking a disability or continuing to stay working and really have not decided one way or the other. Should you go back to work and endure back ache and pain in order to keep metal detecting? A couple hours in the water detecting isn't like a 8 or 10 hour work shift. When you detect you are keeping a hobby that might be very dear to you. Anytime you start feeling down in the back you can choose to stop detecting and head home to get your medication and maybe some bed rest. Try taking pain medication or getting a break to rest your back ache at work. Do you think the boss would go for that? That choice might end up with you being fired for not preforming your work properly and up to the company's expectations.

I would say first off this is a situation which you need to discuss with your attorney. I do know whoever makes out your disability check (if you go out on disability) will require doctor's records and probably a statement from yourself as to what you generally spend a day doing. They have a right to require these statements. They also have the right to require an update every once in awhile.

I suspect several folks in this forum are on some form of disability. I don't think any one of those folks elected to be "disabled" in order to spend more time metal detecting. If you are disabled from working I don't think that means you have to spend the rest of your life on the couch or hiding in the house. There's a big difference between lifting heavy objects like moving furniture or say, joining a softball league where lots of exertion of the body is needed and simply getting out once in awhile and poking around with a metal detector. This is why you need to discuss your situation with an attorney. You can't be expect to lay around and do nothing for the rest of your life. You KNOW your limits as far as your back goes better than anyone else. You KNOW what you can do and what you cannot do and what you can endure and what becomes painful to you. Getting out with a detector once every so often is also exercise and you need that. If detecting in the water was all that painful you would not be doing it in the first place after 6 back surgeries. I don't believe that having a disability means giving up everything you've done or enjoyed. That would be absurd. There is also a theory of "Quality of Life" that becomes a issue with any disability. Thankfully your back problems and 6 surgeries have not left you immobile. But would you seriously give up metal detecting while you still have the ability to get out and about even if it's just for a little bit? I think not. Would you actually be expected to give up everything you do because you have a disability? Again I think not.
Now if tennis was your passion I think you'd probably have to quit that sport. There is a big difference between the two.
But if your making a life changing decision and worried about a little detecting you can stop the worry by consulting a qualified disability attorney. You can check out the American with disabilities act of 1990. But for sure if your surgeries will not allow you to properly preform your duties at work don't base your decision to keep working (albeit in pain) in order to continue detecting. Your decision to elect to take a disability should be based on your doctor's evaluations and the attorney's council.
Again, and I think I speak for everyone in here with a disability you can not be expected to quit all your activities because of a condition that will not allow you to preform a 8 hour shift where you have no control over what you are expected to do. Were that the case then you probably shouldn't mow the lawn or do yard work or house chores or even get groceries and bring them in the house. I've suffered a fractured vertebra since 1969 after a auto accident. But even with a horrible back brace and though sometimes a bit painful I still got out and detected. It wasn't the best detecting experience but I certainly wasn't going to stop detecting unless I absolutely had to.
Sorry to be so long but it irks me to see folks suffer and continue to try to work because they are in fear that they will not be able to do anything should they be labeled "disabled." And in any case this is a life altering decision you are trying to make. Don't make you decision based on opinions made in this forum. Discuss this matter with your doctor's and get an attorney so you can stop being worried and start enjoying yourself despite your back problems.
Any company big or small has a safety record to reach for. Getting the job done and the "bottom line" are their concerns and certainly NOT your health. The very least concern of any company is your personal health until you stop showing up for work. The company has no say concerning an employee being qualified for a disability or not. Don't let the company bully you if you seriously are disabled. If your disability does involve something work related like an on the job injury then you can be sure the company will be concerned but if you simply have a medical condition that is not related the company could care less with the exception of finding someone else to do your work. Don't factor the company into your decision here. If you can't preform the work expected of you due to a medical condition then you are disabled. You are just like a chair or computer to the company with the exception that companies fail to realize people wear out the same as an old chair or old computer. This is why they have attorneys to keep us small folks from being railroaded and steamrolled unjustly.
Also, Social Security could require you to find another field of work if you are physically able to do the work and if your are fortunate enough to find some other job. Finding a job depend on luck and your age. If your older your chances of finding a decent job isn't that great.

Sorry to be so long winded here.

JRich

 

[Burning Metal]

I know all about this subject! I was injured on the job back in 2001, herniated 2 discs in my back and 2 in my neck. Since I was first injured I have had 6 operations on my back and 2 on my neck, the most recent one on my neck about 1 year ago. I settled the workers comp. case with my employer, I am now collecting Social Security Disability for the rest of my life, plus a structured settlement from the workers comp case...basically I get 1 check a month from the SSD and a check every 2 weeks from the structured settlement. I have to see a pain management doc. every month and I am on some pretty heavy duty pain meds. I got my SSD approved about 7 months from the time I filed for it, got approved first shot and didn't have to file an appeal or anything.
I still get out and detect, I have some days where I feel pretty decent, and other days where I'm pretty much in agony, my Doc. said that detecting was pretty good exercise and that I should keep doing things like that, walking, swimming, whatever I can do to get some exercise and not just become a couch potato. I've always wanted to learn how to SCUBA dive and he also gave me approval for that...just no roller coasters or bungi jumping...lol Sometimes I'll do something and feel pretty decent doing it, but then the next day or two I suffer for it and I'm in agony.
It all depends on what your body can handle as everyone is different and everyones body reacts differently to situations like that...

 

[Silver Surfer]

Last week when I went to my doctor (one of several), he told me "you HAVE to gain weight, you HAVE to eat more"...
I replied back to him... "Doc, how about I hit you square in the balls, then hand you a sandwich and tell you to eat it... You think you could"...
He then smiled and said "I get your point"...
Believe me when I say that I would much rather get fixed, get back to work making $70k a year, and only MD on my days off.... That would be the BEST thing, but after almost two years and 11 doctors, two surgeries and probably a third, I am starting to have my doubts.

 

[bigbcbear]

If you have that many back surgeries metal detecting in water would be a benefit to you getting better . I think your doctor would agree . Like bending kneeling and the old saying fat floats , so there would be hardly any weight on your spine when in water , and by moving in water it will strength your muscles . So I can't see any down side to you metal detecting . and this if from a person that is on a disability.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Well got a very shocking call yesterday.... Social Security called... My case "approved"... I am still not knowing what to think, first, because "no one gets it their first try", and also because I really dont want to be "disabled"... I just want to get back to work and start making good money again..
Anyway, from the time I filed until hearing from them, was only 3 months... I hope to get the info packet this week so I can at least make heads or tails of this.

 

[Burning Metal]

Well got a very shocking call yesterday.... Social Security called... My case "approved"... I am still not knowing what to think, first, because "no one gets it their first try", and also because I really dont want to be "disabled"... I just want to get back to work and start making good money again..
Anyway, from the time I filed until hearing from them, was only 3 months... I hope to get the info packet this week so I can at least make heads or tails of this.

Congrats on the quick approval, I thought mine was quick and it took 7 months! Being disabled is not fun at all, gets VERY boring sometimes, but getting through the whole social security process in a timely manner really helps your peace of mind...

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Silver-Surfer

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!

The answer to your question is whatever the judge says. The judge can bring it back to the day you became disabled if he/she chooses (most of them have been that I have been party to). Understand that 5 months is not countable - but again - the judge can decide that you get paid for that, too.

When you get your letter, it will tell you what date they are counting it back to. Then, they will send another letter which will tell you how much, and, so you know, if they back-date it, you will get 2 separate checks - your current due, and then, after that, the back check. If you have a lawyer,
they will also send a paper for you to ok that he gets his pay out of your check. (your back check). This is in case you changed lawyers or your lawyer didn't show up or do anything and you want to appeal. You don't want to appeal - it will hold up your checks. (when you appeal, they consider it appealing everything, so, you don't want to do that).

I'm so happy to hear things went so well. Someone did something right. (probably your doctor). It is obvious that your disability fits one or more of their "automatic" type of claims. (they have a list of specific ailments that are considered "fitting into the disability profile - their "list of impairments). If you care, I've included a link to the site. A lot of doctors know what fits and what doesn't.

http://www.ssa.gov/disability/professionals/bluebook/AdultListings.htm

Again, congrats, and you will have to let us know how far back the judge decided (well, you don't HAVE to, but, I'd be interested in knowing).

Beth

 

[Silver Surfer]

Still have to get the papers... But just to clarify, I had no lawyer since it was my first filing... Also, my MD seemed to be clueless... He said all he got was a record request... Not sure about my heart Doctor.. Maybe as you said, I "fit" into their system...
The lady on the phone said they were back-dating to the day I left work, then subtracting 5 months.. Another surprise to me was she said since my son was under 18 at the time, he also qualifies for benefits as long as he is in school...
Again, still trying to wrap my head around all of this.. I would have bet the farm that if I wanted the disability, I would have had to fight, and wait over 2 yrs to know one way or another... Oh well... But thank you for all your help and information... I hope to get the papers soon, so I can really see what they say...
I sure wish the news from the doctors could be so precise... Seems they just keep running me around, this doctor countering that doctor, that doctor thinking he has the answer over that one, etc.... I am about fed up with the medical system and all the tests, pokes, xrays, meds, etc....
If only I could go back to the way I was a couple years ago... But I guess wishing for that does no good...