Do you think we can change the laws? MEETING UPDATE>>>

[nc-joe]

I have attached the email I sent to my County Commision today. Do you think I will get a favorable response?


Dear Mr. Carruth:

I am a metal detecting hobbyist who lives in Cabarrus
County. I was researching areas in which I can pursue
my hobby, and since local parks are usually areas of
interest for metal detecting I decided to review the
Cabarrus Parks and Recreation Code of Ordinances and
was very disturbed to find Sec. 50-3 (3). Park
preservation. If I am reading this correctly, it
appears metal detecting is not allowed in County
Parks. Upon further review of the wording, it would
appear my child can not "play in the sand" since
digging in the sand is not permitted. It also appears
the Code of Ordinances was revised in 2005, which
would be during your chairmanship. If my
interpretation is correct, what steps would be
necessary to change either remove, or amend this
Ordinance? The section referenced reads:

"Sec. 50-3. Park preservation.
It shall be unlawful for any person to:
...

(3) Dig, pick or remove any soil, rock, sand,
stones, trees, shrubs, plants, wood or other
materials, or make any excavation by tool, equipment,
blasting or any other means whatsoever."

Of course, complete access to "public" parks is my
desired outcome, but even if there were limited areas,
times or parks available, would enhance the Parks
experience for many hobbyists with in our community.

As a metal detecting hobbyist, we have a core code of
ethics designed to maintain the beauty of our parks,
communities and country. An incorporation of these
codes of ethics/conducts into an amendment to the
listed code would most certainly be welcomed. The
code of ethics are:
I will respect private property and obtain proper
permission to search the property

I will fill all excavations. (back fill any holes and
put the sod cap back on top) (a limit to a size of
hole can be determined, ie: 6" round by 6" deep)

I will appreciate and protect our heritage of natural
resources, wildlife and private property.

I will use thoughtfulness, consideration, and courtesy
at all times.

I will build fires in designated or safe places only.
(this is already addressed in the current codes)

I will leave gates as found.

I will remove and properly dispose of any trash that I
find. (this will help clean up littered areas for
everyone benefit)

I will NOT litter.

I will NOT destroy property, buildings, or what is
left of ghost towns and/or deserted structures.

I will NOT tamper with signs, structural facilities or
equipment (this is already addressed in the current
code)

Please feel free to contact me for any more
information you need, or if there is anything I can do
to help change the current code, if my interpretation
is correct.

I look forward to your response.

Thank you for your time and service to our community.

 

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[spez401]

Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

treasurejack... I'll say it. The legal system has become completely distorted and special interest groups rule everything!

It's not REALLY that bad, but you are right, special interest groups do get their agendas pushed through. Usually because they are the only side that is zealously representing ANYTHING to the people who are making the decisions. That and the fact the big lobbys can throw literally TONS of money at an issue....

And as for "holding my hand over my eyes" while touting support, that I don't do. If I do support something, I have no problems going the extra mile to do so. But the other part of my job (and my personality) is to play devil's advocate and bring up the points that others a) haven't or don't want to consider, and b) think aren't valid points. I also have a responsibility to my clients to give them an honest evaluation of their claim/action/outcome. When people come to me and say... "I want to do... whatever", I give them an honest estimation of their likelihood for success. Too often people come to me with a rose colored view and won't even consider failure. I tell them point blank... what I call the "no shitter" conversation... here is your likelihood of success/failure, problems etc. I don't hold anything back. Then, if they decide to go forward, they already know if they are likely to win/lose, and what types of problems are likely to arise.

I do that for a few reasons. First, I don't want to get sued for malpractice when someone comes back and says, "But he promised I'd win". Second, I want to make sure clients have a complete understanding of what they are undertaking, depending on the case/situation. And finally, It goes against my grain to blow smoke up someone's backside and make it seem like its an easy process. I do this with all my clients, regardless of the issue, and it just tends to overflow into the rest of my life. I'm the guy my friends go to when they want an honest opinion. I overheard my friend Kevin at a party tell someone "Go ask Steve. He'll tell you exactly what he thinks. But don't get pissed if it isn't what you want to hear"

I think what nc-jow is doing is GREAT. He has gotten a lot of success, and looks like he's going to be getting some more. I can't wait to hear what happens at the meeting. Good luck joe.

steve

 

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[TreasureTales]

Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

NC-Joe, you are so right in your approach to show what the commissioners, general population, and others have to GAIN from allowing detecting in the parks. A win-win solution is always more likely to be accepted than a one-side-takes-all approach. I wish you much success in your endeavors. In fact, whatever happens tonight, I think your attitude, perseverance, and your desire to work with the system are to be highly commended. Good luck!!

 

[Born2Dtect]

Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

NC-Joe,

This is a great story. Any law can be changed if you can show it is wrong , misguided or out dated. You did a good job with your campaign. I always think that whoever makes the laws are biased by misinformation or just concluding that all detectorist behave the same (leave big unfilled holes). I really don,t mind being restricted in order to get to detect. I think permits and even signing in and out with the parks would not be too big a price to pay.

Ed D.

 

[treasurejack]

Re: Do you think we can change the laws? (I already got a hopeful repsonse!)

Spez401,
Straight up, I thought about what I had said in my last post off and on all day today at work, and it bothered me. It didn't bother me that I had voiced my opinion, but rather it bothered me in the way I had done it. I wrote that reply late last night and I don't have access to a computer through the day, but when I got home I pulled up that thread and I reread my post and after reading it over I thought to myself, "Brad, you were an Atypical as#!" I don't even know you and you're probably a really nice guy, in fact, I'm certain you are. So please, after throwing the stones that I no doubt deserve, please accept my sincerest apologies. I assure you, that type of post was very out of charactor for me.

 

[spez401]

treasurejack
please don't worry about anything you said. nothing was out of line, even remotely, and either way, i have a very thick skin. I wasn't disagreeing with you or getting pissed, i was just clarifying what i wrote earlier.

no apologies necessary
steve

 

[nc-joe]

Well, I just got home from the Parks and Rec Commission meeting......

Good news, bad news.....

First the bad news. They did not put the final issue to a vote, but agreed to defer it until they speak with the County Land Manager and the County Attorney (regarding liability if someone steps on a hole). They defered it until next month, and/or April if the need to extra time to discuss with the above mentioned people.

Their biggest concern, not everyone will be experienced enough to properly back fill holes, if the back fill them at all. Second, not allowing MDing with in 20 feet of any ball field in order to limit the liability exposure. Third, limiting the size of the hole width.

I was very happy to see they took their time to do some home work. They check with other area counties, cities, state and the Fed policy on MDing to see what other municipalities are doing. They were somewhat suprised at the different rules for different areas. For example, one county permitted MDing everywhere on county land EXCEPT beaches. Another county allowed MDing ONLY on beaches. Some had not restrictions, some has NO MDing at all.

They were all impressed with my presentation and facts and photos of proper recovery. If I had to guage, I feel I have the full support of 6 out 7 Parks Commissioners and 2 of the five Recreation Commissioners. Of the 4 I don't feel I have the full support of I think 3 are truly undecided and 1 had no interest. Of the ones that I feel I had full support, I think 3 are going to rally the others to jump on board.

Based on the overall conversation and question and answer session after my presentation, it would say it they will most likely open the parks for MDing for a 2-6 month trial period, and may be limited to members of a MDing club to determine the overall effects and consideration for open to the public. At worst, I am sure we will get the green light to MD any potential park site to verify there is no Historic Significance to the land before it is transformed into park. (This would be very cool, virgin ground).

I was first on the agenda, so I stayed for the entire meeting. (I also had an veteran member of the MDing club I belong to come with me.) He brought 2 books he has compiled of awards, letters of appriciation, new paper article about him and MDing, items he loaned and/or donated to museum and historical societies and much, much more.

After the meeting, I went around and again thanked each individual memeber for their time and the opportunity. This led into my counterpart putting his books on the table for the members to flip through, as other told me stories of how either their dad's used to metal detect back in the 60's and 70's, or how they, as kids, used to dream of having and MD (but were too expensive then) I suggested to this member it is never too late to start, to others telling me about their coin collections and how they used to look for gold in the local streams. I think this brought the kid out in many of them.

For certain, they will be contacting me again for additonal information. I also feel, that they will have a trial period of 6 months. I think they will issue a permit to MD, which states you have read and will abide by the code of ethics, and will have a map of areas which will be off limits, such as ball fields and the 20 foot perimeter of ball fields and the old cemetary in the newest park. Unknown if they will attach a fee for the permit.

Any change to the current code is 100% better than no change at all. I will do my best to be an ambassedor of the hobby and hopefully we will succeed in getting the changes made. And then, hopefully open the parks to everyone.

If you have a code in your area that prevents MDing and want my help. Please PM me and I will get you my contact info. Even though this is still a learning event for me, I may be able to assist on what to prepare for.

I eagerly await their follow up.

 

[TreasureTales]

Excellent work nc-joe. Seems like there was much more positive than negative at the meeting. GREAT.

One thing (I may have mentioned this already, if so please forgive me) that our local club did so that we could detect the parks was we became a part of the Parks & Recreation Dept. It was great because we had a liaison with the Dept. in case there were any problems AND we were covered under their Liability Insurance so we then had an easier time getting permission to hunt in the parks of other counties. You might want to suggest this if you run into some resistance because having our club be part of the Parks & Rec Dept really changed the way we were viewed by the citizens and the officials. Our club is advertised in the quarterly Parks & Rec catalog that is mailed to each household and anyone can join the club providing they pay the membership fee and are at least 12 years old (that's a Park & Rec's rule). Basically, our club didn't change but we gained many benefits and our reputatoin radically improved in the eyes of the officials.

Permits, even free ones, bother me because they usually lead to a fee structure at some point in time. Sure, a permit is better than no hunting at all, but it sets a bad precedent, IMO. I would try to steer clear of a permit process if at all possible.

All-in-all you have earned loads of respect from all of us in this endeavor. Thank you!!!

 

[nc-joe]

we became a part of the Parks & Recreation Dept. It was great because we had a liaison with the Dept. in case there were any problems AND we were covered under their Liability Insurance so we then had an easier time getting permission to hunt in the parks of other counties.

Dang, why didn't I think of that! :P

Excellent advise. I will run it past the MD club and see what they think.

 

[TheSleeper]

nc-joe i commend you for the effort you have done to re open the parks in your area to our hobby.

 

[Bavaria Mike]

You might suggest a permit to detect the parks. Hope you get it through city hall. HH, Mike

 

[George (MN)]

You could call the county sheriff & ask if you would/could be fined for detecting in county parks. What they say is what you should go by, the people w/parks dept reading out of some rules book don't have arresting power. If the sheriffs dept said you might/could be fined if you left a big hole that could cause injury & you don't do that, you might consider that permission to detect. HH, George (MN)

 

[nc-joe]

Well, all I can say at this point is, "I tried". I am still conviced this the right way to handle it. After a few months of review by the special committee and the risk manager, the County has decided to follow suite with the State rather than other local communities and no change the current code. (actually this is slightly different from the State. the State does not allow MDing on State property, but the County does not allow digging or excavation of any kind), but nevertheless, can't do it.

I will try again at a later date. I will need to do more research, get new members elected to the Commish etc, etc.

Guess I'll have to get all the clubs in NC together and attack this from the State legislature and work our way down, rather than starting local and working our way up.

Is there anyone out there that would be willing to head up a grass roots campaign in NC to change the State law? I would be more than willing to put alot of time and effort into this, I just can not commit enough time to spearhead it.

I recently joined the FMDAC, maybe we can get their help, too.

www.fmdac.org

I'm sure I can get the 35 members of the Metal Detecting Assoc of the Carolina's on board, and probably the CRABS, but we will need a whole lot more support, including dealers, relic hunters, historical society members, etc.

PM me if you live in NC and are interested in getting this going.

 

[TreasureTales]

Valiant effort, Joe. You are to be commended for trying to do things the right way. FMDAC is OK, but you might have more luck with local dealers and even manufacturers - money talks and businesses will walk if they can't sell their products because of the local/state laws. Good luck to you! And thanks for the update.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I've been in this since the mid 1970s. At that time, it never even occured to us that you needed to ask, to detect public parks and schools (they're public, right?).

To this day, I still go to some of those same parks and schools 30 yrs later, and have never inquired of the rules, because, quite simply, no one's ever said anything. I suppose if I were to go to city hall, county offices, school district offices, etc... and mention "digging", they'd probably say "absolutely not!". No matter how you phrase it, their image will be geeks with shovels opening a pandoras box of lawsuits, etc... The easy answer is no. Why should they care? But on the other hand, if you just go, you are probably going to be ignored (unless you were leaving a mess). Occasionally I run into a singular park or situation, where I might be ushered on, so I just make mental note to avoid just that one place. I'd be afraid that if I started getting political, that I would only bring un-wanted attention to myself and all my friends, who were previously pretty much ignored, un-seen, etc.....

Take noise laws for instance: There are decibal limits set in municipal code, so that if the police get a back-pack blower, or party music complaint, they can document that it was above such & such decibals, thus you were breaking the law. But if there were no complaint, then there would be no violation. Ie.: if no ones bothered, then you no one measures your decibals, and it's a mute point. I'm very familiar with this since I own a street sweeper business, and we've had to handle noise complaints for our late-night shopping center cleaning trucks and blowers. I wonder if some of these "digging" laws are not very similar to noise laws: I mean, does anyone really care, unless you actually left them uncovered, or were a nuisance in some way, that brought about enforcement? And to carry the analogy further: If I went to city hall and asked "can I run my blower above the allowed decibals tonight with my backpack blower?" They would say "no you can't" But we just learn, in our business, where to work at such & such hours, to avoid problems. Ie.: we'll do centers close to residentials first, and the lots in commercial neighborhoods later on in the night. Does that mean that there was no decibal rule for the commercial neighborhood at 2am? No, the law was still there, it was just that there was no one around to be bothered.