DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[dog the treasure hunter]

Why couldnt gold just be laying on top of the ground,easy pickings for the first group to come tru, thats interested in collecting the gold,no mining at all,just get the surface stuff? if it was easy pickings for the first 49ers in cali. why couldnt it happen in other states? maybe the ancients got most of the surface stuff? it wouldnt take to long to get a cave full if you where the first at a virgin site.

 

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[Rawhide]

mdog

The heart symbols are used to mark Spanish treasures and the circle for the caves/mines . These symbols are carved close to the spot . If the heart has not cracks or thunderbolts is a symbol for wealth , but if has , is a warning for a deadly trap which protect the cave/mine .
The first symbol says how the cave is in direction which has the circle from the mine .
The second says how the cave /mine is above the heart but has a deadly trap ( your heart will be broken if you don't pay attention to the other signs ) .
The third says how the cave/mine is behind the heart .
If the heart has cracks or thunderbolts is better to stay away if you don't know to read the next marks out and inside the cave/mine .

I have seen more than the three types of hearts he has explained her. The fox one is new but have seen something close. I dont have pictures of much of the caballos. I fish there as I cant climb like I would like.Hearts I have seen are usually maps but not always. I have some exploring to do after his explanation.

 

[Springfield]

... Even if one treasure hunter is relaying what he believes to be good information, does not make it anything other than a pile of BS in and of itself...

... If Phoenician, and this stuff is Ophir related, it was KNOWN that there was such a deposit. ...

... I believe very little of any public information on this stuff, and would not believe, certainly not automatically, MOST private information on it either ...

WHY WAS THERE STILL GOLD THERE IN THE 30's? ...

... Care to expand upon snakes, skeletons, and murders (or booby-trap)? ...
own areas of the two; namely not much north of you and into the REAL gold bearing areas of the West where History tells us the Spanish did not settle.

... All of this Spanish crap and the King's Fifth ...

... What's your theory on where Willie got information and from whom?

Well, you've brought up a boatload of stuff here, all of which probably fits into the North American Unified Treasure Theory - whatever that theory turns out to be, if anyone ever figures it out. This post will touch only on the twentieth century. There's much to be discussed about prior times too.

First ... and foremost: why are we even talking about these things? Because we've heard stories. Caves of gold bars. Lucky deer hunters. A treasure map is found. A secret document is revealed. Indian attack kills all witnesses of gold deposit or pack train full of loot. Lost Spanish mines. Hidden Jesuit mines. Secret French mining operations. Iron doors in the mountains. Mysterious carvings. Crazed prospector loses a rich ledge of gold. These tales grab your attention. The first thing you might ask is, "If I was ever in possession of true knowledge about any of these types of things, what is the chance that the information would ever, ever, ever be given to a stranger or end up in the public domain?" Think about it - think about it hard.

For some reason yet to be fully explained, there have been intentional and methodical releases of stories all over the American West, clustered in three general time frames - the 1890's more or less, the 1930's more or less, and around 1980. It's easy to trace the 1890's and 1930's information blitzes. Pick your favorite legend, known or not so well known, and research the details of the story and the time at which it appeared in print. The 1890's bunch generally focused on 'fabulous lost mines innocently lost by the finder' and was revealed through newspapers for the most part. In the 1930's came reports of large caches from the distant past, with secret information revealed to some lucky schmo. These accounts appeared in newspapers again, but to a lesser degree as 'treasure writers' surfaced in magazines and books. You'll find that there is overlapping in story type and actual dates, but the legends likely center around one or more of the scenarios listed in the preceding paragraph. The schmo of course finds the clues he is directed to, but is never able to solve the puzzle, no matter how long he tries. The legacy is a well-known legend and many guys like us willing to pick up the torch and keep looking. [Note: not all treasure legends fit this bill, but the big ones almost exclusively do. There have been plenty of post-hole banks recovered, some outlaw loot found, etc. Most modest recoveries are never publicized.]

I know a few things about the 1980's because I was one of the lucky dupes who received secret information in 1980 about a lost location ('Jerry's lost cave of gold from the 1930's'), knew another lucky dupe who received secret information ca 1978 about another lost location ('the richest gold mine in the world, found by Marcos de Niza'), and more to the point of this thread, a third acquaintance whose uncle found 'Willie's cave in the Caballos' in the 1960's (revealed to him in the 1980's). Information about the first two is available elsewhere. Below is the Caballo story. These are all terrific treasure stories, lapped up by avid pilgrims, but there's an underlying mystery in not only these three instances, but all 'true treasure revelations': who is methodically revealing these tales, and why?

Copy of an email sent by me to a Noss family member ca 2000 (slightly edited for this post):

" ... One of my oldest friends (and a search partner) was a manager at _____ ____ in _____, NM in the early 1980’s and worked with a young metallurgist graduate from east Texas who told him about his mysterious uncle, the black sheep of his family, who revealed a story to the nephew about his own experiences in New Mexico.

The uncle was a prospector/searcher who had been hanging out in T or C for several months in the 1960's. He was exploring in the area around that mine at the end of the dirt road that leads up the mountain from the dam at Caballo Lake (Bat Cave Canyon). I can't remember the mine's name, but I do know the claims were still being kept up in the 1980's because I checked on it myself at the courthouse in T or C as a favor to the nephew. I think the Fingados were involved, also that one-armed private eye from El Paso. A bunch of folks had claims up there - all in the same vicinity. It’s south and below that big open cave you can see from I-25.

The uncle was working a rim rock area and stopped to rest. He noticed a snake hole where he was sitting. He poked it with a rock hammer and the hole started to collapse. He dug out a crawl space into a cave/drift that had been backfilled. Inside he counted about 1200 bars of crude-smelted gold bars (as far as he could see in the darkness), a bunch of skeletons, a big nest of rattlesnakes, and "the smell of death". He tossed out some bars (don't know how many). As he was getting ready to cover up the hole again, two guys came up on him and surprised him. He was armed, so were they. He killed them both and shoved their bodies into the hole, covered it back up and immediately went back to his truck and began driving south. He thought he was being followed, but figured he eluded his chasers in El Paso.

He returned to his home territory in Texas where he bought a big house, closed the shades and stayed drunk for 20 years. None of his family knew where he got his money – they thought maybe he'd robbed a bank or something. The nephew was the only one in the family that the uncle would ever talk to and in the 1980's, when the nephew was in his 20's and was taking a job in New Mexico, the uncle told him the story. He told the kid he would never go back to New Mexico but if the nephew was interested, he'd help him find the cave.
The uncle directed the nephew to drive up the dirt road to the mine and told him to get some photographs of the area. He told him to be sure to take some shots around an old sheave block that was bolted into the side of the hill - it was his landmark.

The nephew went up there with my friend to get the pictures and some guys who were apparently patrolling the road threatened them. The uncle told him ahead of time that they might be hassled - he claimed that the mountain was always being watched through a telescope from a bar in Arrey, I believe. The kid returned to Texas with the photos and the uncle put a pin through one of them and told him that was the spot.

Neither my friend nor I was shown the photo, but the nephew said the pinpoint would never be found unless you knew exactly where to dig - it was well hidden and camouflaged. The nephew was afraid to go up there because of things his uncle told him and also because of the guys who threatened him the day he took the pictures. He took the pictures about 15-18 years ago. I don't know if the uncle is still alive or not. The nephew left the area shortly after all this happened and the last I heard he was working for some big mining company in South America.

If that sheave block is still there, you'll be reasonably close to the hot spot (at least according to the uncle's story). Who knows, maybe the uncle was full of baloney. However, I know that the nephew believed him. I've never been up that road where the kid got his pictures, but I've always been curious about it. To the best of my knowledge, the nephew never showed the picture with the pinhole to anyone or went back up there before he left the country. Bat Cave Canyon is still quite active with mine claimants and treasure hunters."

You asked a very good question earlier - how did Willie get his information? "Why, he happened to find a map" (lucky guy) may float some boats, but not mine. I certainly haven't researched Willie to any great extent, but I'm sure he was a fine fellow and apparently a sincere witness when interviewed as an old man prior to his death. But, back in the thirties, I have to wonder if Willie wasn't an Organization man, playing his part in the game. He seems to have an awfully lot in common with my deceased pal Jerry.

 

[gollum]

WOW

While responding to Springy and Nobody, I just had a revelation. Its not ready for print yet, but its something I had not thought of before.

Its going to take some working out, but at first glance, it seems entirely reasonable.

To be continued..............................

 

[gollum]

Springy,

Willie's Story is that he and Buster Ward were camping in an old abandoned adobe house. They were tearing out whatever wood was left in the house for a fire. When Willie yanked out a window sill, he found the map in a hidey hole underneath. Why would someone leave that behind when moving? Quien Sabe? People die suddenly, and when their things are removed from the home, maybe the family didn't know about the hidey hole. I can't speak as to that, but I can imagine many reaons.

Best - Mike

 

[Not Peralta]

Gollum, check out the maps that I put on post 72. notice the cabin. np

 

[Springfield]

Springy,

Willie's Story is that he and Buster Ward were camping in an old abandoned adobe house. They were tearing out whatever wood was left in the house for a fire. When Willie yanked out a window sill, he found the map in a hidey hole underneath. Why would someone leave that behind when moving? Quien Sabe? People die suddenly, and when their things are removed from the home, maybe the family didn't know about the hidey hole. I can't speak as to that, but I can imagine many reaons.

Best - Mike

Mike, is this Willie's map, or is it strictly a Noss thing?

 

[UncleMatt]

Perhaps a possible way to verify the story above about bat cave canyon is to research if 2 men disappeared without a trace around that time...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi nut er Not peralta. One of the little things that appeared in the story that interests me even if it possibly isn't true, was the statement, supposly by doc N to her, was that he had to pry the bars apart, and that they didn't look like Gold bars.

The interesting thing - along with your snake map - is that if the bars had came from Sorora and the Tayopa zone, he apparently had no way of knowing that they were Dore' bars,and if from NW Mexico, as such were heavily loaded withr copper and iiron minerals. Such bars will superficially leach out with time, and stick together. and certainly not look like Gold Bars. interesting.

Bars that originated from Mexico city were first refined, then cast into the nice yellow bars. while the outlying mines, as well as the unregistered ones, didn't have the facilities to do this, but only cast Dore' bars.

The connection is looking better all of the time

Hw many more lil maps or goodies do you have Not Peralta ?

 

[Springfield]

Perhaps a possible way to verify the story above about bat cave canyon is to research if 2 men disappeared without a trace around that time...

Yeah, the two dudes were described as 'cowboys'. A good snoop would need to start looking for police reports with the Sierra County Sheriff's Office in T or C and the New Mexico State Police records, probably in T or C and Santa Fe, for the decade of the 1960's - if available. Might also read all the local papers for the '60's, if available. Guys like this may also have been flying completely under the radar too.

 

[Springfield]

If you just came up with that part I bolded, congratulations, for that is a good 'un. ...

Yes, thanks - it came to me like a fly at the State Fair. If you can fulfill its promise, I assign all rights of usage to you.

 

[UncleMatt]

Get out of my head Springfield. If you did indeed uncover evidence of missing persons meeting that description through those research channels, that would be quite intriguing.

 

[Springfield]

Get out of my head Springfield. If you did indeed uncover evidence of missing persons meeting that description through those research channels, that would be quite intriguing.

Yeah, but if you struck out with the SO and the SP, you'd have to read every newspaper for ten years - nothing I'd want to tackle. What if those cowboys were from El Paso? Or somewhere else? Ha ha. Assuming you did find the report you were looking for, how would it benefit you? You might get more names to look at, but after 50 years, they'd likely be dead. If I was interested in the Caballos, I'd have thought about it in '82 when I heard the story.

 

[Not Peralta]

that's correct .np

 

[Not Peralta]

REAL. just got through making ,just woke up, when I am refreshed my memory is really good, if theres anything you want to know about the area around caballo's just ask I will
try and answer, you are correct about the dore' bars ,I am very familiar with them, when your in that area that's how you can tell the real treasure hunters from the bogus ones, almost everything
that has been found in small quantities is dore' bars all sizes and most found by accident . and none were found at vp, and none of the bars that I ever saw had any markings at all, and they were very rough looking, I never did believe the story about were the maps were found, I had talked to many old Spanish and apache families that for over two hundred years had been running livestock in the same area as vp
they all had a lot of different stories,there were a few that had older members of there family actually use vp back in the late 1890's up to 1920's and there was never anything in vp, the people that I
talked to said they were all through vp and if something had been there they would have found it, they thought it was a joke that people were claiming that there was a lot of gold in there. np ps. one of the things that was talked about was poncho villa being in the area a lot. and no one knew why he was there so much.

 

[UncleMatt]

I have another angle to research this story: generate a view shed from that bar in town and see what areas of the mountains can be seen from it. I will have this done and see what it shows. Anyone know the address or GPS of that bar in Arrey, NM where people were supposedly monitoring the site through a telescope from?

 

[Not Peralta]

UncleMatt, it was the spanish diner, not the bar, and they have the best Spanish food you will find any where, its a small treasure in its self. I use to eat there all the time, sometimes two meals a day for months, the people are very nice.np

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good after noon N Paralta; As you know, I am not actively looking for any bars in that area, but evidence that there were were / are some in the area, which lends credence to my theory on the transportation of them from Sonora to Matamoros. So far things are clicking along nicely.

I may have to dump the entire' theory, but it appears more feasible than a straight series of missions. Also a final depository would have to be created, since waiting for mule trains would take tooo long.

The theory of a final depository is weak, since that would require a continuous presence in the area, too much exposure.

The idea of a string of small missions strung out for some 1500 miles - !/2 of the distance - is very unpalatable compared to the Caballos as the intermediate point.

One must remember that these travel times and conditions were perfectly acceptable and normal in those days.

Any other data that would show this would be thoroughly appreciated , might even buy you a cuppa if we ever meet, but don't insist on a refill - times are hard and I have learned to be frugal---- a cheapskate if you wish

 

[Springfield]

I have another angle to research this story: generate a view shed from that bar in town and see what areas of the mountains can be seen from it. I will have this done and see what it shows. Anyone know the address or GPS of that bar in Arrey, NM where people were supposedly monitoring the site through a telescope from?

Well, here's Google Earth's stab at it - from the Caballo Tavern in Arrey.


Street view towards Caballos


GE Arrey towards Bat Cave Canyon


GE Bat Cave Canyon

 

[Springfield]

By the way, just to cloud the issue a tad bit more, Willie's Cave is believed by some to be a mile or so north of Bat Cave Canyon.