Rebel - KGC
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LOL!
"Documented Proof: The 30 Million Dollar Beale Treasure Is a Hoax" by Tom Kenny
- Thread starter Old Bookaroo
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LOL!
ECS
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So far it appears that you will accept any vague and incidental reference any name that could be fitted into the French/Bonaparte connection to the Beale treasure.Absolutely. You always have to be very cautious and mindful that you don't fall victim to it.
The J. Bonaparte letter to Monroe, from Richmond, dated 1829, and in this letter at least one of the parties is confirming a major portion of our theory proposed, that the U.S. secretly utilized these individuals to get what they wanted and they knew each other and that they had history of association. This is all supported by existing records and documentation...
The above is just one example of "established evidence" to support the theory, or a portion of that theory... Most everything we have includes the type of provenance used in this example, some to date still does not but we're pretty certain it exist and we're still looking for it. It's just the difference in what we are willing to accept in support of the theory proposed. We desire records and documentation...
James Monroe was President 1817-1825,but was a friend of the Patterson family long before his term.
Dated Nov 6,1808 Elizabeth Patterson Bonaparte wrote Monroe a letter asking about the advisability of sending her son to live with her husband,Jerome Bonaparte,in France. Monroe responded to her letter,and also sent a missive to Jerome.
Now the J Bonaparte letter from Richmond to Monroe,4 years after his term as President was about WHAT? The history with Jerone appears to be custody and heir matter,not about the Beale treasure.Monroe died in 1831.
It seems that your claim of supporting provenance provides evidence for your French/Bonaparte connection theory.So far,all you have provided is a French tickle,and there's the rub.What,in J Bonaparte's 1829 provides the provenance that supports your theory? Are you forcing the evidence to fit the theory?
To quote Brad Andrews:"Believe me,this is a very easy thing to do".
Rebel - KGC
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O
Old Silver
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You can find good reasons for not believing the Beale story, but the use of the word, "stampede," is not one of them. Words are generally not used in print until they have been used in the vernacular.
Would an author COIN a word in his book? Possibly, but I don't think he would do so without an explanation of it's meaning. What would be the purpose in using a word that no one would understand?
So does anyone know where to find the quote from the book where "stampede" was "first used"? If the word is used with no explaining of it's meaning, then I think we can conclude that it wasn't the
first time it was used. First time written, yes, but almost certainly not the first time used.
Would an author COIN a word in his book? Possibly, but I don't think he would do so without an explanation of it's meaning. What would be the purpose in using a word that no one would understand?
So does anyone know where to find the quote from the book where "stampede" was "first used"? If the word is used with no explaining of it's meaning, then I think we can conclude that it wasn't the
first time it was used. First time written, yes, but almost certainly not the first time used.
my own 2 cents....
I agree with those who feel that the Cyphers are a hoax...interestingly at the end of the pamphlet there is a WARNING from the compiler who claims that he went from comparative affluence to penuary because of the time he had spent trying to solve the cyphers..and that was the reason he had made public the cyphers through his agent J.B. Ward...yet if Ward was not just the agent but the was the unnamed alleged heir to the Beale Papers who spent so many years trying to solve the cyphers ..that is a logic hole that calls into question the whole legend of the Beale Cyphers/treasure!!!!
I agree with those who feel that the Cyphers are a hoax...interestingly at the end of the pamphlet there is a WARNING from the compiler who claims that he went from comparative affluence to penuary because of the time he had spent trying to solve the cyphers..and that was the reason he had made public the cyphers through his agent J.B. Ward...yet if Ward was not just the agent but the was the unnamed alleged heir to the Beale Papers who spent so many years trying to solve the cyphers ..that is a logic hole that calls into question the whole legend of the Beale Cyphers/treasure!!!!
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I agree with those who feel that the Cyphers are a hoax...interestingly at the end of the pamphlet there is a WARNING from the compiler who claims that he went from comparative affluence to penuary because of the time he had spent trying to solve the cyphers..and that was the reason he had made public the cyphers through his agent J.B. Ward...yet if Ward was not just the agent but the was the unnamed alleged heir to the Beale Papers who spent so many years trying to solve the cyphers ..that is a logic hole that calls into question the whole legend of the Beale Cyphers/treasure!!!!
Cyphers/Ciphers a HOAX...? NAW... RUSE! Have you studied the life of J.B. Ward, AFTER 1885? He was interviewed by the HART Brothers (or ONE of 'em); read the HART PAPERS, story of two "Beale" Treasure hunters...
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The Enigmatist
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What do y'all make of this table and has anyone ever seen it before? From the material I've uncovered within the ciphers, I find some of the numbers listed here and the author to be potentially significant
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"BP" & "BT" - HOAX...?
The Enigmatist
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It was published in 1861- meaning produced almost immediately after secession. I find some of the measurements, particularly the ones in relation to distance from Lynchburg to be interesting indeed.
Yes, the Papers are a hoax for sure and easily demonstrable actually. Everything about them is Masonic- from start to finish- including the narrative. Even Cipher #2, which claims to be solved, isn't actually. It's message is another cipher.
Freemasonry defines itself as "a peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and expressed through symbols"- meaning quite literally that traditional narrative allegory can be expressed entirely through the use of numbers or designs. Think of it like "9/11". When an American hears those two numbers he can easily recall an entire visual picture complete with sounds etc- and all from just two numbers. This is what is meant by symbolic or Masonic allegory- and the TBPs are a perfect example of it.
What I'm having a hard time reconciling is who wrote them. I have a prime suspect but to connect him concretely will take some additional detective work. My suspect however is also not from Virginia- not even close actually...and that wouldn't seem to make sense given the specificity and minutiae of the relationships of the small community of Lynchburg-based individuals mentioned in the Papers....but almost all of it could have been gleaned from books and a few visits to the Courthouse. But that still seems highly unlikely.
We do know this- neither James B. Ward or his son, both of whom met with the Hart brothers, ever described the author, never said a word about him. They offered no opinion, speculation or insight as to their relationship to the author or the author's relationship to Morriss. Everything we know comes entirely from the Papers themselves- and Beale's name appears to have been harnessed solely for use in the Papers. A comment was made by one of the Harts that the topic of the Papers created long faces on Ward and in particular his son- as if the subject opened an old wound- something not spoken about due to embarrassment...like a long-kicked drinking habit.
My current belief is the Papers were mailed to Ward in 1884 and were accompanied by a false story which suggested a shared past in Lynchburg which was in fact entirely fabricated. I don't think the two ever knew each other but the author picked Ward as the agent not because of a connection to Morriss but due to the fact that the details of Ward and Morriss' life "worked" Masonically with the allegory contained in the paper. The question is though...how did these lives ever become known to the author?
Yes, the Papers are a hoax for sure and easily demonstrable actually. Everything about them is Masonic- from start to finish- including the narrative. Even Cipher #2, which claims to be solved, isn't actually. It's message is another cipher.
Freemasonry defines itself as "a peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and expressed through symbols"- meaning quite literally that traditional narrative allegory can be expressed entirely through the use of numbers or designs. Think of it like "9/11". When an American hears those two numbers he can easily recall an entire visual picture complete with sounds etc- and all from just two numbers. This is what is meant by symbolic or Masonic allegory- and the TBPs are a perfect example of it.
What I'm having a hard time reconciling is who wrote them. I have a prime suspect but to connect him concretely will take some additional detective work. My suspect however is also not from Virginia- not even close actually...and that wouldn't seem to make sense given the specificity and minutiae of the relationships of the small community of Lynchburg-based individuals mentioned in the Papers....but almost all of it could have been gleaned from books and a few visits to the Courthouse. But that still seems highly unlikely.
We do know this- neither James B. Ward or his son, both of whom met with the Hart brothers, ever described the author, never said a word about him. They offered no opinion, speculation or insight as to their relationship to the author or the author's relationship to Morriss. Everything we know comes entirely from the Papers themselves- and Beale's name appears to have been harnessed solely for use in the Papers. A comment was made by one of the Harts that the topic of the Papers created long faces on Ward and in particular his son- as if the subject opened an old wound- something not spoken about due to embarrassment...like a long-kicked drinking habit.
My current belief is the Papers were mailed to Ward in 1884 and were accompanied by a false story which suggested a shared past in Lynchburg which was in fact entirely fabricated. I don't think the two ever knew each other but the author picked Ward as the agent not because of a connection to Morriss but due to the fact that the details of Ward and Morriss' life "worked" Masonically with the allegory contained in the paper. The question is though...how did these lives ever become known to the author?
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ECS
Banned
"Everything we know comes entirely from the Papers themselves"...and we know that story came from several different unrelated sources to create a dime novel treasure story only marketed in Lynchburg ,Virginia.
The Enigmatist
Jr. Member
ECS- This is some of the conundrum for me. It appears most of it is historical material is fairly accurate when compared to the historical record- but there are odd issues that aren't necessarily incorrect but simply hard to believe. These also can't be confirmed. For example; why would Morriss let forty years pass, waiting until two years into the Civil War before finally gifting a young man with knowledge of the ciphers-knowing full well that the man might get called into military service at any time and never return? The author also state he told his entire family and one close family friend...yet no one ever attempted to look for treasure themselves once the secret became public knowledge.
But what alters the equation entirely however is what's inside the ciphers. Basically, what I've found is that the content of the three ciphers are entirely unrelated to the narrative. They can and do exist as separate entities- as if someone simply grafted a well-researched local history and pre-written ciphers together. The culprit was without question a Mason.
But what alters the equation entirely however is what's inside the ciphers. Basically, what I've found is that the content of the three ciphers are entirely unrelated to the narrative. They can and do exist as separate entities- as if someone simply grafted a well-researched local history and pre-written ciphers together. The culprit was without question a Mason.
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The Enigmatist
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What I find incredulous about the story is that this party of 30, heading into what was then Spain to Santa Fe, weren't just entering a foreign country but one which was also in the middle of a revolution- and yet the Papers make zero mention of it. They couldn't have picked a worse time to treasure hunt.
Rebel - KGC
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MAYBE, they were REALLY going to "join the Revolution"... (playing REVOLUTION by the Beatles).
Note the Benjamin Cooper expedition of 1822 was from MISSOURI TO NEW MEXICO not from Virginia to Colorado
New Mexico Office of the State Historian | events
New Mexico Office of the State Historian | events
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And...?
Eldo
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The only way I can see that the word Stampede was used earlier than "accepted" common use is found......
is when it is coined for a reason.....to have an original colloquial message (1700's colonists) that is passed down through ages without its meaning to be known...........
Perhaps what they "Herd" from the British about them "Impeding the Liberty of the Colonists with a Stamp" Tax caused a Stampede
IMPEDE + STAMPOr this signifies the Stamped E
The Letter E Stamped on a document somewhere, or on a rock marker....Perhaps a Horseshoe or Iron POT (Place of Treasure) Shaped Marker with the E Stamped on it....
as in JustinTime's photos that show these marks on the cave clearly,
And with all the other Civil War stashes being documented, its surprising that you guys cant recognize the confusion, and the origin of the Beale hustlers at play here with a cloaked mystery from the time of the revolutionary war......LOL
Youve been duped by Ben Franklin Himself........
The Day of the Dupes ring a bell yet....lol.....
below is an example of the cunning of these guys
Day of the Dupes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bedford Basin is the only other clue Im giving you as to the rest of the big picture on this one...........LOL
bigscoop
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Eldo, you seem to have an unrealistic fascination with the masons. From what I've observed you seem to think every treasure legend is attached to the masons. Don't you think this is obviously a little over obsessive?
Eldo
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What are you talking about.......? Do you constantly challenge any poster's sanity, or are you debating the facts in the case......? Why are you attacking my character in debate over your theory
The case you are making, is basically derived from the review of the history of people in the area, and their 'possible' involvement. You are thinking 1800's, I am thinking more late 1700's if the Mason's involved.
And if these other clues that JustinTime posted are legit, as we have seen actual pictures (yet you have none), I have a location based on mapped cyphers and actual locators, not from any deciphered directions in the C1 coded messages........
If the DOI is involved and a missing original is used to craft clues.....using a hooked X for a symbol.....that must mean it is a fisherman's trove, right........
Did you think it was the Russians?? Or was it the Ancient Aliens who planted these cyphers......?
Guess I should drop all my offers cause you called me a nutbag conspiracy theorist...... Guess because you think I'm insane, that I should just go hide my opinions, as you famous historians (who havent found the trove) tell us how its done.
You guys laid so many tangents on the table, and justified their authenticity via so many extrapolated historical references, that you created a 'historical mystique' surrounding the theory these men were KGC? or is this the lost Confederate Treasury? So many unanswered questions.
It seems to be, that your way of proving this is due to the same 'Pride' these KGC monopolists used to run things with in the area. No wonder ol Simpson came through and BURNED THE SOUTH TO THE GROUND !
you are merely throwing out hints and clues, why dont we just stop all the argument now and put all the evidence on the table, like you pressed JustinTime to reveal.
The case you are making, is basically derived from the review of the history of people in the area, and their 'possible' involvement. You are thinking 1800's, I am thinking more late 1700's if the Mason's involved.
And if these other clues that JustinTime posted are legit, as we have seen actual pictures (yet you have none), I have a location based on mapped cyphers and actual locators, not from any deciphered directions in the C1 coded messages........
If the DOI is involved and a missing original is used to craft clues.....using a hooked X for a symbol.....that must mean it is a fisherman's trove, right........
Did you think it was the Russians??
Or was it the Ancient Aliens who planted these cyphers......? Guess I should drop all my offers cause you called me a nutbag conspiracy theorist......
Guess because you think I'm insane, that I should just go hide my opinions, as you famous historians (who havent found the trove) tell us how its done.You guys laid so many tangents on the table, and justified their authenticity via so many extrapolated historical references, that you created a 'historical mystique' surrounding the theory these men were KGC? or is this the lost Confederate Treasury?
So many unanswered questions.It seems to be, that your way of proving this is due to the same 'Pride' these KGC monopolists used to run things with in the area. No wonder ol Simpson came through and BURNED THE SOUTH TO THE GROUND !
you are merely throwing out hints and clues, why dont we just stop all the argument now and put all the evidence on the table, like you pressed JustinTime to reveal.
Eldo
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I agree with those who feel that the Cyphers are a hoax...interestingly at the end of the pamphlet there is a WARNING from the compiler who claims that he went from comparative affluence to penuary because of the time he had spent trying to solve the cyphers..and that was the reason he had made public the cyphers through his agent J.B. Ward...yet if Ward was not just the agent but the was the unnamed alleged heir to the Beale Papers who spent so many years trying to solve the cyphers ..that is a logic hole that calls into question the whole legend of the Beale Cyphers/treasure!!!!
This is an offer to join the Masons, in their revolution........if you can separate from your normal work, or afford any money, etc, it will be repaid in full, etc etc etc,
All encrypted from another piece they distributed to fellow Masons......an invitation, an appeal they made before they crafted the DOI, to organize the meeting.
bigscoop
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Nope. I simply asked why you seem to think every big treasure legend is connected to the masons? Seems you always end up going there. Was just curious as to why? And you're right, I've never posted a bunch of questionable pictures and claimed them to be critical clues to superior organization's master plan for world order. But I have posted and referenced actual documents and actual pictures......my bad.
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