Dutchman Ore

[sgtfda]

Matt that would only prove Dick Holmes had rich ore in his possession. Not where he obtained it.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Matt that would only prove Dick Holmes had rich ore in his possession. Not where he obtained it.

Frank,

It's not a good idea to question Mr. Roberts "facts". He knows a lot.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

For those of you who think I am unfairly attacking Kraig, you don't know the whole story. I can see where it looks like I'm a lone nut out here. Keep in mind that I have always praised Kraig on his historical knowledge and understanding of the Apache lifestyle. It's when he gets into undocumented stories and alleged pioneer manuscripts that we part company.

Kraig knows what I, and many others know, so he won't speak to me or try to deny what I say. I write nothing that is not backed up by confirmed documentation.

You may take that to the bank.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

all I know is I should have brought hip boots...


thank you mr Roberts....many things forgotten

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Matt that would only prove Dick Holmes had rich ore in his possession. Not where he obtained it.

SGt

But,Dick Holmes sent his only son out into those mountains looking for something. In my opinion, that means that Dick believed Waltz' story. I doubt he found some gold and tried to pass it off as Dutchman Ore. Why would he do that? He sold the gold basically for what it was worth at the time. Of course NOW it's worth more to someone that believes its Dutchman Ore, but during his time he didn't try to make more money off of it by claiming it was from the Dutchman.

Just my opinion.

Thanks
Travis

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

so dirty dutch is arum? and he didn't even say hello...

I was kinda hoping he was chuck olsen...oh well...

 

[Springfield]

Matt that would only prove Dick Holmes had rich ore in his possession. Not where he obtained it.

You're thinkin' like a cop - that's good when you're looking for facts.

The mine that produced the 'matchbox ore' is impossible to value without seeing it. That $110/000/ton (5300 tr oz/ton @$20.67/tr oz) figure is misleading because we don't know how much mined ore was concentrated to yield this assay. Good cobbled rock for sure, however.

For comparison purposes: placer gold, at 22kt and @$20.67/tr oz), would assay at about $550,000/ton (27,000 tr oz/ton).

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

so dirty dutch is arum? and he didn't even say hello...

I was kinda hoping he was chuck olsen...oh well...

No, Dirty Dutchman is me. Travis Crow. I have never, and will never use another name on these forums. I don't hide.

I believe that post was saying that Kraig Roberts was Arum. Not me.

Thanks
Travis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matt that would only prove Dick Holmes had rich ore in his possession. Not where he obtained it.

sgtfda,

Yes that's true, but to assume that you would have to ignore the fact the only place Dick and Brownie Holmes ever said the gold came from was under Waltz's bed.
And ignore Julia's claim that Holmes stole it fom under Waltz's bed.
And even if none of them ever said where it came from, no one could prove it DIDN'T come from under Waltz's bed.

If you DON'T believe in the Holmes account, then yes, that ore could have came from anywhere.

That is why I stated if you believe or disbelieve the Holmes account, you will have a whole different perspective. I was specific in saying, for those who DO believe in the Dick Holmes Waltz deathbed account.

Matthew K. Roberts

 

[sgtfda]

Yes you did say that Matt. I was thinking out loud. I look at these things as I would a court case. The defense attorney would ask that question.

 

[cactusjumper]

sgtfda,

Yes that's true, but to assume that you would have to ignore the fact the only place Dick and Brownie Holmes ever said the gold came from was under Waltz's bed.
And ignore Julia's claim that Holmes stole it fom under Waltz's bed.
And even if none of them ever said where it came from, no one could prove it DIDN'T come from under Waltz's bed.

If you DON'T believe in the Holmes account, then yes, that ore could have came from anywhere.

That is why I stated if you believe or disbelieve the Holmes account, you will have a whole different perspective. I was specific in saying, for those who DO believe in the Dick Holmes Waltz deathbed account.

Matthew K. Roberts

Kraig,

Perhaps you should ask Bob and Tom how those affidavits came about and what they think about LDM ore, and if what is said to be from Waltz's mine, in their minds, is true or false. They are both good friends of yours, so they will tell you how they feel.....I'm sure.

It would not be a bad idea for the others on this site to do the same thing. Both men are straight shooters.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Somero]

I think I'll just be the undecided Juror. A lot of circumstantial evidence based on hearsay, either way makes a good case.

Perhaps when I can hold the Wholly Frying Pan in my hands I'll lean towards believing the Dick Holmes account.

 

[cactusjumper]

I think I'll just be the undecided Juror. A lot of circumstantial evidence based on hearsay, either way makes a good case.

Perhaps when I can hold the Wholly Frying Pan in my hands I'll lean towards believing the Dick Holmes account.

Eric,

That was more than clever.....

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I think I'll just be the undecided Juror. A lot of circumstantial evidence based on hearsay, either way makes a good case.

Perhaps when I can hold the Wholly Frying Pan in my hands I'll lean towards believing the Dick Holmes account.

Somero,

You are right, many do not believe in the Dick Holmes Waltz deathbed account and that is understandable. Those who don't are absolutely entitled to that opinion. Do I believe in every word of the account ? No I don't. I think some things were interprative and/or may have been added by Charles Kennison as Kennison's version differs from Brownie Holmes own given version.

Those who do believe in the Holmes account have a weight of evidence to draw from in the basic core of the account. It is in the fringe, non basic parts where skepticism comes in. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is surely one way to go, but most often, not the smartest.
Once again, these are just my own opinions based upon my experiences.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hello,

I believe Dick Holmes received the "directions" and the box of Ore from Jacob Waltz while Waltz was on his deathbed. I do not believe the "murder" version in the Manuscript.

I believe Waltz willingly gave the ore to Holmes, but his intention was for Holmes to SHARE it with Julia and find the mine together. For whatever reason, Holmes decided to keep his info to himself. (my opinion)

Both sets of directions are "incomplete" without each other. It doesn't take much research to figure this out.

Thanks
Travis

 

[sgtfda]

Travis perhaps he was angry because Julia was selling tickets to see him die. His revenge was to give the box to Holmes.

 

[cactusjumper]

Travis perhaps he was angry because Julia was selling tickets to see him die. His revenge was to give the box to Holmes.

Frank,

I really doubt that Julia ever sold any tickets to see Waltz die. There was very little interest in Waltz, while he was alive. You are repeating Robert Joseph Allen's story which is, primarily, in many people's opinions, a work of fiction.

He is, I believe, the first one to bring Frank Alkire (page 138) into the story in his paperback book. That story has been repeated by a number of authors. After Kraig posted the story on Peter's old site, I asked if anyone had seen the story in Frank's own hand. Kraig, of course, had and told me where he had found it. He also mentioned that he often had Frank's children visit him on his ranch? and they had many conversations.

I purchased Alkire's manuscript from the Historical Society in Tucson and found no mention of Waltz, his death, Julia, Dick Holmes or any of the other players often mentioned in the Waltz death story. I also purchased most of the rest of Alkire's writings, which they had there.

Most of the stories surrounding Jacob Waltz, in my opinion, are pure fiction. Through research, we determined that Frank Alkire was nowhere near Waltz around the time of his death. If you read the man's papers, you will understand that such a claimed major event as Waltz's death, would have been a story he could not resist writing about.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

never let facts interfere with a good story.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello,

I believe Dick Holmes received the "directions" and the box of Ore from Jacob Waltz while Waltz was on his deathbed. I do not believe the "murder" version in the Manuscript.

I believe Waltz willingly gave the ore to Holmes, but his intention was for Holmes to SHARE it with Julia and find the mine together. For whatever reason, Holmes decided to keep his info to himself. (my opinion)

Both sets of directions are "incomplete" without each other. It doesn't take much research to figure this out.

Thanks
Travis

Travis,

Yes I also believe Waltz gave the ore to Holmes, as Holmes and Gideon Roberts were present, Julia was absent, and Waltz knew he only had a short time left. Whether Waltz said it or implied it, I also believe he meant for Julia to share in that ore. Maybe Waltz never said it in so many words thinking Holmes must know that, and Holmes took it that Waltz meant the ore for him (Holmes). Maybe Holmes thought he would use the ore to fund a search for the mine and share the profits from the mine with Julia. We don't know what everyone's intentions were. Often words and actions do not accurately convey our intentions or what we mean. Interpretations 122 years after the fact pale in comparison.

sgtfda,

I don't believe Julia ever actually "sold tickets" while Waltz was dying. It would have been logical however for Julia to take donations from friends, neighbors and interested townspeople to help pay for a funeral for Waltz. That is what I think she did, accept donations for a burial and somehow it got interpreted as "selling tickets". It was a Saturday night and Saturday nights were when everyone was in town, shopping, dining, gambling, drinking and living it up. The town was probably packed with people and word spreads fast in a small community, word of Waltz's impending demise probably brought a host of friends and curious to Julia's door. Julia may have seen the opportunity to have waltz's friends and neighbors pay for his burial.

Robert Allen was not the first, or only Dutchman author / newspaper man to have used Frank Alkire and the Julia selling tickets account. No one was there that night so we cannot say what exactly happened. Robert Allen's book and an article in the Sunday supplement to the Arizona Republican told that story in detail, first in the 1930's and again in the early 1960's. All of Alkire's children, relatives and friends were alive, present and active in Phoenix, including Frank Alkire himself during those times, and none of them, none of them, not one, ever refuted a single word of the accounts. I was not present so I can only guess at what transpired and form my opinion. Everyone is free to do the same.

Matthew Roberts

 

[cactusjumper]

Travis,

Yes I also believe Waltz gave the ore to Holmes, as Holmes and Gideon Roberts were present, Julia was absent, and Waltz knew he only had a short time left. Whether Waltz said it or implied it, I also believe he meant for Julia to share in that ore. Maybe Waltz never said it in so many words thinking Holmes must know that, and Holmes took it that Waltz meant the ore for him (Holmes). Maybe Holmes thought he would use the ore to fund a search for the mine and share the profits from the mine with Julia. We don't know what everyone's intentions were. Often words and actions do not accurately convey our intentions or what we mean. Interpretations 122 years after the fact pale in comparison.

sgtfda,

I don't believe Julia ever actually "sold tickets" while Waltz was dying. It would have been logical however for Julia to take donations from friends, neighbors and interested townspeople to help pay for a funeral for Waltz. That is what I think she did, accept donations for a burial and somehow it got interpreted as "selling tickets". It was a Saturday night and Saturday nights were when everyone was in town, shopping, dining, gambling, drinking and living it up. The town was probably packed with people and word spreads fast in a small community, word of Waltz's impending demise probably brought a host of friends and curious to Julia's door. Julia may have seen the opportunity to have waltz's friends and neighbors pay for his burial.

Robert Allen was not the first, or only Dutchman author / newspaper man to have used Frank Alkire and the Julia selling tickets account. No one was there that night so we cannot say what exactly happened. Robert Allen's book and an article in the Sunday supplement to the Arizona Republican told that story in detail, first in the 1930's and again in the early 1960's. All of Alkire's children, relatives and friends were alive, present and active in Phoenix, including Frank Alkire himself during those times, and none of them, none of them, not one, ever refuted a single word of the accounts. I was not present so I can only guess at what transpired and form my opinion. Everyone is free to do the same.

Matthew Roberts

For anyone interested in the Frank Alkire story, you can find a good deal of factual information here:

Lost Dutchman Gold Mine - Arizona Superstition Mountain Wilderness - Gold Mining ? View topic - THE FRANK ALKIRE STORY......?

Joe Ribaudo