Dutchman Ore

[roadrunner]

QUOTE:in here is rather like being the only blue eyed, 87 pound, white boy, in superior Arizona in the 1960'sUNQUOTE

Try now. Look at my avatar.
Plus I am only one of a few of these white boys that Do Not do drugs.
This town is way worse than when you where here. Because of the druggies and thieves.

Ok,back to topic. Shoudn't have thrown that in there.

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

there are reasons i never went back, you only mentioned a couple...

love those mountains though...

 

[cactusjumper]

I would suggest that everyone carefully reread those affidavits from Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn. Neither man, at this time, believes that there is such a thing as the Lost Dutchman Mine. On the other hand, both men were shown the ore and were able to view the documents as they stated.

"I was told by the individual who owns the assay report, jewelry and ore that this ore had been sent the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona , School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source." (Bob Corbin affidavit.)

If you read Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz....." pages 274 & 275, you will have a better understanding of the truth of this matter. None of that has any bearing on the character or truthfulness of the three people principally involved in the affidavits. All were only relaying what they saw or were told.

I'm not sure that anyone has done more for those two men, as it relates to the LDM, than what they have done for others.

Just one man's opinion,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is a post that has an important clue about the "Dutchman Ore" that has become "public":
_________________________________

Aurum
06-03-2007, 05:40 PM
Thomas,


The photo of Brownie is definitely Brownie in his later life, in his 60's possibly 70's. He undoubtedly rode to the cave or close enough to it so he could hike the rest of the way under his own power.


I assume when you say possibly Billy took the photo you are talking about Brownie's stepson, Bill Harwood. I know Bill was an outdoorsman but wasn't aware he and Brownie ever hiked the mountains or searched for the dutchman together.


Tex Barkley is a good possibility for taking the photo but I have some personal reservations that Tex and Brownie ever searched together also. I could be wrong on that account."
____________________________________________

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lgadbois]

Is it true that Charles Kenworthy took out $13.2 million in gold out of the mine on Bluff Springs Mountain in 1983? What did the ore look like? Did anyone see the ore that came out? Did he smelt the gold himself? Where was the gold sold?

What about the gold cache that was found by Rodgers Spring? Did that ore look like the ore that Waltz had?

 

[cactusjumper]

Igadbois,

There is no real evidence that would support any answers to your questions. The people who are suspected of working the Pit Mine will only say that the Silver Chief is known by everyone to only be a worked out silver mine. Their friends all say the same thing.

Personally, I don't believe Chuck Kenworthy found any ore in the Superstitions despite someone saying that a good friend of theirs saw a trunk-load of ore in Kenworthy's car.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

wouldn't that have to be a car load of ore in a truck..since most truck beds have more cubit feet than a car has interior space...?
where'd he sit in the car with a truck load of ore??

 

[cactusjumper]

wouldn't that have to be a car load of ore in a truck..since most truck beds have more cubit feet than a car has interior space...?
where'd he sit in the car with a truck load of ore??

Hi Don,

Hope all is well with you.

It was a trunk-load, not a truck-load.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I was being silly joe...

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

not enuf coffee...distractions...dsylexica...i thought it said truck.

 

[cactusjumper]

Have to admit, I let my emotions take control of some of my posts on this thread. At least the moderators didn't publically spank me.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Somero]

Aye me arse may be red but at least I got my say, course "Big Brother" is probably watching me now

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos and a special howdy to Springfield and Cactusjumper,
Looks like the conversation went somewhat downhill since my last visit here, sorry that this has occurred and hope that things can be again friendly. As to fighting, I have found that no amount of beating up an opponent will help change his mind, other than what he thinks of you. No profit in it.

Springfield wrote

I'll go you one better. My old shift boss from the Idarado Mine, Louie Girado, could identify the origins of dozens of samples of gold-bearing ore from numerous stopes in the mine from just looking at it. Why? Because he worked those stopes himself and was familiar with the idiosyncracies of the samples, which varied greatly. The idarado had 360 miles of tunnels and drifts in it. Your geologist friends may also recognize certain ores they were familiar with, sure, but I'd definitely bet against their ability to recognize picture rock from the 1000 level at the Idarado - unless, of course, they'd been there.

The point is, claiming 'the matchbox ore didn't come from any known mine' is patently absurd unless you had a sample from every known mine to compare it with. The deal-breaker is that our usable database of verified ore samples probably excludes 90% or more of historical possibilities, which makes proving a negative result ('it didn't come from xxx') impossible. <snip>

All well and good, we have gone round about this topic of being able to ID ore from a mine before, versus the variations within a single ore body or mine. I respecffully disagree that the ore from any mine will match the ore from any other mine to the degree that an expert geologist would be fooled. On the other hand, I could be fooled as I do not pretend to be an expert geologist nor an assayer with many years experience. I will include a few extracts, not my own words:

Each geologist and nongeologist is as unique as his fingerprints; likewise are the ore bodies for which he searches and sometimes finds

. <Surface Mining, pp 28>

Hmm my second attempt at an extract did not work, but the variations in ore are used in locating original sources for ancient artifacts as well for the unique characteristics in the gold and ore.

Every mineral deposit, like every fingerprint, is different from every other in some finite way.

USGS circular 960 pp 320

As to those who prefer to believe that there is and never was any Lost Dutchman, or that it was just highgraded ore stolen from ____ (fill in the blank, Vulture, Bulldog, etc) there are still enough factors remaining to leave such theories short. I will list some here for our skeptics to ponder:

*First, not only was there a real Jacob Waltz, but he was a real pioneer prospector and a highly successful one at that. He found or helped find and develop several quite rich gold mines in the Bradshaw mountains of Arizona, and had worked in other gold mines in Grass Valley in CA so was not just an old man pretending to be a prospector.

*Second, Waltz was seen selling off small amounts of gold in various places, and in a couple of cases rather large amounts - one example being two burro loads he sold at Tucson to Charlie Myers for $1600. <1882< Colonel Poston, George McClarty and Charles Brown saw the ore and tried to follow him back to the mine but lost him near Whitlow's ranch. When Julia Thomas got into financial trouble, Waltz was able to come up with something like $7000 in gold to help her save her business as they were friends. The candle box under his bed contained some forty four pounds of rich ore, and according to people with more expertise than I have, this gold ore does not match any known source. Match box or not, Waltz had a very good gold mine somewhere, and clearly not the mines he had sold previous to 1868 when he moved to a homestead in what is now Phoenix. When these stories of witnesses to Waltz selling rich ore were first published, the named witnesses were still living and could easily have controverted such claims, instead they too went in search of the ore, just as the carpenter named Frank in Florence did.

*Third, if Waltz were just making up stories to keep his friends/helpers helping him in his old age, why would he have pointed at the Superstition mountains and told them that the mine is up there? To get them killed? Not a very friendly thing to do. That he also made at least one attempt to take them to the mine in person also supports the factual existence of a mine rather than a fiction, for surely he could have found plenty of excuses not to ever even try to take them there.

*Fourth, certainly Waltz's friends were utterly convinced that he had a rich gold mine and that it was somewhere in or near the Superstition mountains; Julia and Reiney went in person to hunt for it, even though neither of them had the slightest experience in prospecting much less desert survival, Dick Holmes spent the remainder of his life in the quest and this quest was continued on by his son Brownie and his partner Clay Wurst. If anyone should have been convinced that it was all a pack of lies, it should have been those closest to Waltz and knew him best. Yet all of these people were convinced that he was telling the truth.

*Fifth, geologically the Superstitions may well not be the very best sort of place for a rich gold mine to hide, and yet it has enough evidence of hydrothermal activity to support that one or several such mines may well exist even within the official boundaries of the Wilderness Area. If we add in the adjoining areas to the north, west and east, there are dozens of very rich gold and silver mines in the very same geological settings as you find in the Wilderness Area, indicating that the possibility is very real and very good.

Now Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin have been brought in to bolster both that the mine is real and that they now believe it never existed, but we all are subject to change our views on anything as we get new information. It is only wise practice, just as stepping in a pile of fresh cow pie once is enough to let you know what it is like. Certainly the experience of over forty years of numerous people telling them the LDM never existed and trying to convince them has had some effect. I find it a little sad that they feel this way now, having spent so many years in the quest, as if they had wasted their lives on it, especially when there is certainly enough evidence to warrant a search for the lost mine. Waltz had rich gold ore, that came from somewhere, he indicated to his closest friends at the end of his life that mine was located in the Superstitions and a great deal of BS has been piled on top of the original facts since that 1891 deathbed scene. The fact that we have people deliberately blending in false information today and for the last several decades really, along with the excellent gold found at the so-called Pit mine which is not the mine of Waltz and cannot be, have helped to discourage these two famous and capable treasure hunters. It did not help that they were also betrayed by a person they considered a close friend, but I will bet you this - if both men were only to go back to the basics, the source materials ONLY and ignore everything added on since, they would not be so convinced that the mine never existed. As much as I do respect both Tom K and Bob C. I do not judge whether a lost mine exists based on their opinions.

Side thingie here but no one, not even the successful prospectors who mined a rich vein in the Pit mine, has ever brought out of the Superstitions the amount of gold which is supposed to be remaining in the Lost Dutchman mine. I know this will not be agreeable to the folks whom are convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM, but Waltz himself is supposed to have said there was enough gold remaining in his mine, showing, to make millionaires of twenty men, when the price of gold was some $20.67 per ounce. Phipps, the man who supposedly stole some gold from the mine, told several cowboys that mine was the 'richest gold mine on Earth" from what he had seen. Jacob Weiser, also on his deathbed, told Doc Walker that the mine was very rich. While the gold brought out by various persons in several claim of having found the mine is indeed impressive, it is nothing to fit the original. Waltz claimed there was a million ounces of gold showing in the mine when he left it - no one has brought out a million ounces from any mine in the Superstitions, period. Assuming the mine exists, and I am convinced that it does, most if not all of that million ounces left in sight when Waltz left it, remain in the mine.

I think I have prattled on enough for one post - my apologies if anything I said was offensive to anyone, no offense was intended. Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS oh dammitol but had to add this; those of us whom are convinced the LDM is real are so frequently accused of standing to profit from the legend itself, or from the profits of the tourist trade. Far from it - I certainly have not made a single cent from the legend, writing about it or any other form, and certainly not a cent from any tourist trade. On the other hand, there is a very real motive for our skeptics, among some of them that is, to convince everyone that the LDM mine never did exist for they want the Superstition mountains to be closed even to the search for the mine, for that area to be a place for hiking and photography and nothing else. So some of our disbelievers have a very real hidden agenda for their disbelief. Just something to consider for those whom are "on the fence".
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Have to admit, I let my emotions take control of some of my posts on this thread. At least the moderators didn't publically spank me.

Joe Ribaudo

Don't worry - we'll slap you around a little if you need it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Don't worry - we'll slap you around a little if you need it.

Keep in mind that I bruise easily........

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In a previous post, Oroblanco wrote this :

"Now Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin have been brought in to bolster both that the mine is real and that they now believe it never existed, but we all are subject to change our views on anything as we get new information. It is only wise practice, just as stepping in a pile of fresh cow pie once is enough to let you know what it is like. Certainly the experience of over forty years of numerous people telling them the LDM never existed and trying to convince them has had some effect. I find it a little sad that they feel this way now, having spent so many years in the quest, as if they had wasted their lives on it, especially when there is certainly enough evidence to warrant a search for the lost mine. Waltz had rich gold ore, that came from somewhere, he indicated to his closest friends at the end of his life that mine was located in the Superstitions and a great deal of BS has been piled on top of the original facts since that 1891 deathbed scene. The fact that we have people deliberately blending in false information today and for the last several decades really, along with the excellent gold found at the so-called Pit mine which is not the mine of Waltz and cannot be, have helped to discourage these two famous and capable treasure hunters. It did not help that they were also betrayed by a person they considered a close friend, but I will bet you this - if both men were only to go back to the basics, the source materials ONLY and ignore everything added on since, they would not be so convinced that the mine never existed. As much as I do respect both Tom K and Bob C. I do not judge whether a lost mine exists based on their opinions".



No one "brought in" Corbin and Kollenborn to bolster whether the mine existed or not. That those two men did themselves when they wrote and swore to the public affidavits. I can understand anyone changing their mind on something, but are we to believe now that they changed their minds that they saw the Dutchman ore, assay report, Dutchman jewelry with shipping papers and swore to it on affidavits they themselves wrote ?

I believe what I do about the LDM not because of books or affidavits or what I read on LDM forums, I believe what I do because of my own experience in those mountains, my own reading, my own research and my own relationships with past and present LDM seekers. I listen to what everyone tells me and has to say and respect them and their opinions whether I believe them or not. But my belief and LDM search is not pinned on anyone's affidavit or Dutchman book, LDM forum or some blowhard on a LDM forum telling everyone how much smarter and connected they are about the LDM than everyone else.

If I didn't believe in the LDM I wouldn't be looking for it, or wasting my time on an LDM forum arguing with people who do. And I sure wouldn't be whinning and blubbering like a 6 year old that Joseph Allen or some Dutchman author wrote a book and didn't give me the exact story. Everyone needs to think for themselves, get out in the mountains and spend a couple weeks by yourself in a camp looking for the clues you think are important.

Kollenborn and Corbin are big boys, they don't need a wet nurse to talk for them, I don't believe anything someone says that someone else said unless I hear it from their mouths directly, and neither should you.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Springfield]

.... When Julia Thomas got into financial trouble, Waltz was able to come up with something like $7000 in gold to help her save her business as they were friends. The candle box under his bed contained some forty four pounds of rich ore,

....Waltz himself is supposed to have said there was enough gold remaining in his mine, showing, to make millionaires of twenty men, when the price of gold was some $20.67 per ounce. Phipps, the man who supposedly stole some gold from the mine, told several cowboys that mine was the 'richest gold mine on Earth" from what he had seen.
... Oroblanco

You always present a strong case Oro, but I want to look a little deeper at a couple of the LDM's legendary clues.


"Gold Production - First Period - 10 Years, 1890-1899, In Million Dollars.

Years.	Africa.	United States.	Australia.	Others.	Total.
1890..........	9.8	32.8	29.8	40.6	113.1

..." [ Read more:Gold Production, 1890-1910 ]

If my math is correct, the USA total gold production in 1890 (contemporary with the Waltz legends) was 1,600,000 ounces. Waltz allegedly claimed that an equivalent of 2/3 of the total US 1890 production was 'showing' in his mine. This sounds seriously far-fetched to me and obviously casts doubt on his statement. Even if the 'matchbox ore' came from the LDM, a million ounces of it 'showing' must have covered an acre. A prudent observer might say either Waltz or whoever quoted him was being disinformative.

Additionally, if Waltz gave Julia $7,000 in gold to 'help her out', that would amount to about 340 troy oz. That would be $425,000 at today's gold value. Quite a favor. Also, if the ore was 25% gold by weight (doubtful but feasible), that would amount to 80 pounds of ore - twice what was supposedly in Waltz's box. This account too sounds far-fetched and IMO points out the danger on relying on all such hearsay, no matter what the source.

I think it's likely Waltz had some rich ore in his possession when he died. Nothing remarkable about that, per se. If he told folks that the ore came from the 'richest mine in the world' in the Superstitions, I'm sure some people believed him. Just because Holmes and others were believers doesn't guarantee that Waltz didn't mislead them. We can't know if Waltz was lying or telling the truth - it could have been either, even on his death bed.

As to where the ore actually came from ... we don't know. It may have been high graded, it may have been stolen, it may have been someone else's cache, and of course, it may have come from a mine in the Superstitions, or somewhere else in central Arizona. I think the decades of hoopla and embellishment have elevated this legend far beyond its source.

We can debate the issue indefinitely. My contention all along is simple: it's a good story but there isn't enough to it to warrant a serious commitment to go looking for it. Weekend adventures for the fun of it, sure; but years of searching?

 

[Springfield]

..... I don't believe anything someone says that someone else said unless I hear it from their mouths directly, and neither should you.

Matthew Roberts

I wholeheartedly support that view, especially when it comes to 'lost mines and buried treasure', but do you realize what you're saying?