Egyptian Democratic Coalition Responds to Obama

[Bum Luck]

LOL.... Yeah, right....

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Oh, Ockham's Razor used against logic! Cool!! New slant there!

Although.. the administration being devoid of truth wouldn't let you know anyway.

Well, at least we're shaving the responses quite a bit thinner ............



It is tough to get around, isn't it guys?

No one rewards their enemies.

Well, at not least in the world of diplomacy anyway.

 

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[packerbacker]

If you are dealing with a religious fanatic, no matter which side they are on, diplomacy will NEVER come into play except to be used as a tool to gain ground to further one's cause. If they feel their "god" wants them to do something there isn't any way they will be convinced it would be better to compromise on any issue. Kinda like us and our guns. ( for you anti-gun types, I don't mean to include you in the "us" statement )

 

[packerbacker]

btw cris, if you find the pro-Obama thread, feel free to add this to it.
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[Treasure_Hunter]

Well, at least we're shaving the responses quite a bit thinner ............

View attachment 852199

It is tough to get around, isn't it guys?

No one rewards their enemies.

Well, at not least in the world of diplomacy anyway.

There is nothing to get around, Muslim Brotherhood is our enemy.... this adminstration has threaten to with hold aid if the military did not release morsi and negogate with the MB... That is supporting the MB....




It’s hard to fathom how or why our administration ever thought the Muslim Brotherhood saw democracy as other than a means to an end — and a particularly repellent one at that — in the first place.

It’s not as if the MB is subtle. They have proclaimed who they are since their founding by Hasan al Banna in 1928 and have not wavered in any significant way since in their global jihadist goals. They have also been unstinting in their massive misogyny, homophobia and rigid support of Shariah law über alles (quite literally über alles, since the Brotherhood were — virtually the last still unrepentant — allies of Hitler in WWII).
You know, liberal stuff.

Democracy, as their kissing cousin Turkey’s Erdogan so blithely explained, is “like a streetcar. When you come to your stop, you get off.” Or, as one of the Brotherhood’s own internal documents put it in that oh-so-distant year of 2007, they (the MB) are dedicated to “eliminating and destroying Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house.”

That’s from the Muslim Brotherhood’s “General Strategic Goal” for North America. The “miserable house” of Western civilization of course includes all the tenets of classical liberalism and most of those laterally paid lip service by today’s soi-disant “liberals” (rights of women, rights of homosexuals, freedom of expression, ad tedium, ad hypocrisia).

And yet those same liberals — not to mention the increasingly addle-brained John McCain who seemingly can’t tell an al-Qaeda operative from Paul Revere — are suddenly pounding Saharan sand in outrage at the extreme treatment of the Brotherhood at the hands of the mean Egyptian military.
Give me the proverbial break!

The only hope for democracy in Egypt — and it’s a mighty slim one, maybe the size of a third of an M&M crushed under a camel — is the military. At least they’re not insane.
Nevertheless, the president of the United States is not amused. We read our government is secretly “reviewing” our support of Egypt. They are urging the Egyptian military to negotiate with the Brotherhood, the same religious fanatics who evidently just told 24 Egyptian policemen to lie face down in the Sinai desert and summarily executed them, the same madmen who are running all over Egypt burning down Christian churches.

What is the explanation for this absolutely self-destructive, even idiotic, policy on our part?

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/08/19/obamas-strange-love-affair/

White House More Pro-Islamist On Egypt Than The Saudis​

Mideast: The new military government in Egypt that just deposed Islamist rule there isn't Islamic enough for the Obama administration. But Saudi Arabia, whose constitution is the Koran, is backing it.

You might have thought the misguided human rights-based foreign policy practiced by Jimmy Carter was consigned to the historical ash heap during that fateful hour in January 1980 in which Ronald Reagan took the presidential oath and 52 U.S. hostages held 444 days left Iranian air space.
Unfortunately, it is back in full action in the Obama Era.

Instead of considering the dangers an Islamist regime in Cairo would pose to America, President Obama is more concerned about the Egyptian military violating human rights in ridding its country of Muslim Brotherhood rule. Suspicions arose Tuesday that the Obama administration actually will suspend the massive aid the U.S. gives to Egypt.
Granted, the land of the pharaohs now is suffering its bloodiest internal disorder in modern history, but the Saudi royal family, for its part, understands that the successor regime to that of Mohammed Morsi will be preferable to the fanatical rule of Islamism.

Saudi Arabia on Monday pledged to recompense Egypt for any Western aid it would lose because of the many hundreds killed in its quelling of demonstrations. The Saudis will contribute the lion's share of $12 billion promised by Persian Gulf countries since the July 3 coup.

Even as European governments mull cutting back Egyptian aid, Reuters reported that "on Monday many diplomats expressed concerns that withholding funds would likely hurt the Egyptian population more than the government."

They too seem to realize the importance of a stable, pro-Western Egypt — the most populous of Arab countries — to counter Islamofascist, soon-to-be-nuclear Iran, an Afghanistan that might fall back under the Taliban's rule, and an already atomic and unpredictable Pakistan.

As a candidate, then-Sen. Barack Obama wrote in Foreign Affairs magazine in 2007: "In no area is our leadership more important and more urgently needed than the Islamic world."

And in a speech the next year, he said: "It is time to once again make American diplomacy a tool to succeed, not just a means of containing failure."
But the carnage in Egypt is a direct result of a lack of American leadership over the past 4-1/2 years, and today Obama is finding it impossible to use the tools of U.S. diplomacy to contain his own glaring foreign policy failures.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-edito...lures-leaves-obama-in-diplomatic-quandary.htm


[h=1]As Egyptian Churches Are Put To the Torch, Obama’s Reputation Goes Up in Flames[/h]By YOUSSEF IBRAHIM, Special to the Sun | August 18, 2013

As church after church is put to the torch in Egypt by members of the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies, one of the things that is going up in flames is the reputation of President Obama.

In the past 48 hours alone, some 57 Egyptian churches have been burned to the ground in the Nile valley. It will not be lost on the Egyptians that Mr. Obama has spent the crisis playing golf at Martha’s Vineyard.

Scores of Christians are being consumed in this conflagration, some burned beyond recognition defending their churches, even as Mr. Obama’s much-despised envoy in Egypt, Ambassador Patterson, still tries to effect a reconciliation between the the Muslim Brotherhood conducting this devastation and the Egyptians who revolted against the Brotherhood’s rule.

Mr. Obama came out against a pastoral background to urge the Egyptian military and government to take it easy on his favored Islamists and to hint at even more sanctions if they do not. As Mr. Obama retreated back to the beach, his aides warned of a cutoff of the $1.5 billion a year that American has been providing, though such aid is now being overwhelmed with a package of $12 billion that began flowing from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates only last month.

In Arab culture, such language and mannerism, including the wagging of fingers, will be seen as insulting, which at least partly explains the rush by the oil-rich countries to help the revolutionary government in Cairo. Yet America’s problem is larger than finger pointing. The Obama administration is allying itself against those fighting for a secular Arab world, a fight that is now arising across the Arab world. It may be that two decades ago the radical religious ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood won some adherents. But Arabs have long since rejected that siren. America seems to have trouble catching up.

Enters Egypt, by far the largest and most influential nation. It is a cultural and intellectual soft power, never comfortable with what the Muslim Brotherhood sought to impose under President Morsi. Egypt’s 14 million Christians, descendants of the pharaohs peacefully nestled for centuries among a vast Muslim population found themselves singled out, yet again. It happened many times over the past 14 centuries ever since Muslims invaded Egypt and forcibly converted most of the population, except for those stubborn Coptic Christians who took the pain, but kept their faith.

Coptic is the Pharoes’ name for “Egyptian,“ a little appreciated echo of the fact that all of Egypt was once a Coptic, Christian nation — for a full seven centuries until the Islamic invasion in the seventh century of the common era. It has kept many of those beliefs, assembled mostly around co-existence and absorption as invaders came and went.

Romans, Macedonians, Persians, Christians, Muslims, Ottomans, French and Brits, all traversed the Valley of the Nile, but the essence of Egypt remained deeply Egyptian long after they left. This is the context in which the battle with the Muslim Brotherhood has erupted.They are basically waging a war against the essense of Egypt shared by the majority of the country's 86 million citizens, both Muslims and Christians. The Brotherhood’s loss, which took a year, was predictable.

When in 2009 President Obama came to Cairo for his first major speech on foreign affairs, he simply made his remarks and walked away, thinking his “Islamist friendship message,“ coupled with his charisma, would be enough. He ignored the Christian Arabs, who have been the bridge between Western and Arab cultures since the 17th century — translators of the greatest works of arts, literature, civilization, theater, and cinema. They, as did Jews living in the Arab world, made an outsized contribution to whatever success has been made toward modernity.

The eviction of the Christians from the Arab world, as the eviction of the Jews before them, is a loss not only for the West but mostly for Arab Muslims. More importantly, it is a crime against humanity. Where is President Obama? Will his silence make him a partner in this crime?



http://www.nysun.com/foreign/as-egyptian-churches-are-put-to-the-torch-obamas/88378/



​

 

[Ammonhotep]

First, suspension of aid to the military is is legally requisite if the administration defines the military's actions as a "coup." You'll notice how the Obama administration has bent over backward to NOT call Egypt's situation a coup. But when you have the military forcibly and lethally silencing the group that "democratically" won the presidential elections, then you can hardly call it anything but a coup. The breech of the Camp David Accords then requires cessation of aid. The fact that the elections were finagled means nothing when the military all-but-forces the US to stop the aid supporting their bloody actions. Talk about supporting terrorism!

So, I would ask a question that is also pertinent to US society; which is more important: to silence an extremist group in society, or to silence free speech in a society? Oddly, it seems the political right elements in this thread are promoting the silencing of free speech (when they disagree with that speech). It doesn't work that way. You either have it, or you don't. If you don't, you're either a Fascist on the Right, or a Socialist on the Left. Both are extremist. Both promote violence toward the other.

The MB gained political advantage beyond their constituency because they were better organized than any other group. Is that not a truly American democracy? (Ha! The irony!) Sure they needed to be taken down a notch, as do so many US political elements (right and left), but they do not need to be obliterated from the face of the earth. They need to be included in and taught about true democracy. They need to be brought to the table.

Oh, wait ... I know what you'll say next: But the MB are dangerous!! Other than the violence that was recently provoked by the military, where is the recent evidence of MB violence? I'll help you. It was the 1997 mass-killings in Luxor. That's approaching 20 years ago. Yes, there have been other violent conflicts, but by individuals. The burning of churches and general Muslim-Christian clashes have been going on in Egypt since the 7th century, and you'll find they're often linked to family feuds (often a la Romeo and Juliet).

You can't lay that on Obama, now can you?

Actually, it seems some people could lay anything on Obama since they require neither proof nor logic.

And FYI, I didn't vote for Obama (how's that for a shocker), I just detest the untruth.

 

[Ammonhotep]

P.S., I love the irony that those in this forum who used to claim that Obama was supporting the MB through US aid are now claiming that Obama is supporting the MB through cessation of aid. That's both fascinating and indicative of a propagandist motivation.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

So In the 48 hours that some 57 Egyptian churches have been burned to the ground in the Nile valley is normal, the execution of 20 some odd police is normal.

What if a political group here burnt 57 churches and executed 20 some odd police men, raped tortured and murdered citizens because they were a different faith, you think that party would still have a place in our government...

You can defend the Muslim Brotherhood all you want, that does not change the fact they are America's enemy and their goal is the destruction of our society....

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[Ammonhotep]

You can defend the Muslim Brotherhood all you want, that does not change the fact they are America's enemy and their goal is the destruction of our society....

I have not defended the actions of evil people. I have defended FREE SPEECH.

I'd suggest this is a direct result of provocation on the part of the Egyptian military with a strong influence of propaganda. The MB were protesting peacefully for over a month when the military started a war. In my opinion they should have used water cannons, not bulldozers and firearms.

Either way, it's a long-proven sociological fact that if a group is denied a public voice they will seek alternate means of expression. A medium-sized bully (MB), after tasting his own blood thanks to a bigger bully (the Egyptian military), is seeking to feel powerful by exerting itself on a weaker group (the Copts).

It's not complicated to understand.

You'll note that this is exactly what I predicted would happen if the MB were not brought into public dialogue. I stated it more than once.

And perhaps this is another thread, but America has created the Jihadist backlash just as the Egyptian military created the MB backlash. Don't believe me? Read Benjamin Barber's book "Jihad vs McWorld." It reads like a post-9/11 commentary, but it was written in 1995 and accurately predicted the Jihadism we see in the world today.

 

[Dave44]

Ammo. Do you know what is wrong with this statement? "If you don't, you're either a Fascist on the Right, or a Socialist on the Left. Both are extremist. Both promote violence toward the other."

What is Your definition of right and left? Looks as if you only understand the socialist version. Go look up the Capitalist version and get back to us.
Fascists, Communists and Socialists are all on the left, to varying degrees.

 

[Ammonhotep]

Fascists, Communists and Socialists are all on the left, to varying degrees.

Actually, it sounds like you need read up on fascism. Your error is reminiscent of the early days of the Obama administration when everyone was calling him a socialist and a communist in the same breath! Ridiculous!

 

[Dave44]

Ahhh , You are one of those. I will allow you more time to study if you want. Want to post your findings on Fascism, Socialism and Communism?

Do any of these allow complete individual freedom?
Are any of these forms of government actually for the people by the people,, No.
They are, however, By the party elite, to rule the ignorant masses. There is no real liberty in any of the 3, How do you equate liberty and freedom with any of those three? You may study Egyptian history but you have not studied ours.

John Adams-"

• First Address to Congress (23 November 1797)

While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world; while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of justice and moderation, while it is practising iniquity and extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming pictures of candour, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken, and so solemnly repeated on that venerable ground, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government.

 

[Ammonhotep]

Dave,

You seem to think that democracy is "right" and all forms of oligarchy are left. Interesting ... erroneous, but interesting.

Personally, I am a moderate. I vote right (traditional) or left (progressive), depending on which I think will do the least damage at the time. :-)

 

[Dave44]

I don't know about a democracy, I don't live in one, yet. So that is where you err?

Actually, I think you may be right! Democracy = Mob rule = left. Good job defining your misguided stance though.

 

[Ammonhotep]

I don't know about a democracy, I don't live in one, yet. So that is where you err?

Actually, I think you may be right! Democracy = Mob rule = left. Good job defining your misguided stance though.

Well, the US is a republic. I presume that's what you're alluding to. It seems you've now defined anarchy, fascism, socialism, and communism all in the "left" category. You're really starting to intrigue me. Anything else you'd like to toss in there?

How about this, for conversation's sake: just give us your personal definition of "left" and "right." It'll help us understand each other better.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Topic is not left or right, it is the response the Egyptian people gave about MB......

Stay on topic..

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[Ammonhotep]

Dang. I didn't even get my response. I invite Dave to PM me his thoughts.

Ok, TH ... waiting for your response on #88, then.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Dang. I didn't even get my response. I invite Dave to PM me his thoughts.

Ok, TH ... waiting for your response on #88, then.

I was against giving any military aid to Egypt as long as MB were in power, you don't give aid to an enemy that has stated their aim is our destruction.

Obama ushered out Mubarak from office choosing to not support him at all and telling him he needed to step down.

When Musri and MB took power O was giddy with excitement, when military threw Musri out and arrested him after 10s of millions of citizens protested against MB he threaten to with hold aid if they didn't release Musri and restore MB to power, then when that failed he demanded MB be included in political process...



There is no confusion on my end.....

Since

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[Ammonhotep]

I was against giving any military aid to Egypt as long as MB were in power, you don't give aid to an enemy that has stated their aim is our destruction.

Just to repeat, I'm not pro-MB. Once again, though, the money was going to the Egyptian military. To understand how that money didn't affect the MB, you should continue to study the Egyptian strong state and its internal balkanization.

In addition, if we broke the Camp David Accords agreement with Egypt, that would not only impact our relationship with Israel, but also Egypt's relationship with Israel. That funding is part of a three-party agreement. I'll refrain from opining on that mess, but it's easy to see how things could further deteriorate in the region.

When Musri and MB took power O was giddy with excitement,

I'd love to see a video of said giddiness ... well, any source at all, really.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Just to repeat, I'm not pro-MB. Once again, though, the money was going to the Egyptian military. To understand how that money didn't affect the MB, you should continue to study the Egyptian strong state and its internal balkanization.

In addition, if we broke the Camp David Accords agreement with Egypt, that would not only impact our relationship with Israel, but also Egypt's relationship with Israel. That funding is part of a three-party agreement. I'll refrain from opining on that mess, but it's easy to see how things could further deteriorate in the region.



I'd love to see a video of said giddiness ... well, any source at all, really.

Egypt may yet relent and include MB in their political process in some shape down the road, but if MB is in power Egypt it can not be an ally of America because MB is certainly an enemy and always will be.....

The Egyptian people will not accept a military dictatorship for long either, if democratic elections are not held in a reasonable time I believe we will see them in the streets by the 10s of millions again.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Ammonhotep]

Well, I suspect this is a good place to stop. I've come about as close as I can to agreeing with you: the MB as a ruling party is untenable both for the US and Egypt. And yes, the SCAF ruling won't last long, either. The rest we'll just have to see, won't we?