Ely's description of where Ruth's body was found - an experiment...

[Garry]

Paul,

I don’t know whether you’re going to continue with the rest of the story involving the Newcomer photo but the Greg Davis involvement is one of my favorite LDM research stories. For me, Greg’s research project was brilliant. I think we can probably stand within a few feet of the actual skull discovery site due to his work.

I believe Greg took photos from the exact spot that Newcomer stood in 1931. I’m remiss, in not having the identity of his colleague or the exact date of Greg’s pictures at my fingertips.

I hope you continue with the details or if you haven’t studied the details in depth yet, maybe Greg can chime in. It’s something to be proud of.

Garry

 

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[Cubfan64]

Paul,

I don’t know whether you’re going to continue with the rest of the story involving the Newcomer photo but the Greg Davis involvement is one of my favorite LDM research stories. For me, Greg’s research project was brilliant. I think we can probably stand within a few feet of the actual skull discovery site due to his work.

I believe Greg took photos from the exact spot that Newcomer stood in 1931. I’m remiss, in not having the identity of his colleague or the exact date of Greg’s pictures at my fingertips.

I hope you continue with the details or if you haven’t studied the details in depth yet, maybe Greg can chime in. It’s something to be proud of.

Garry

Garry - now I'm curious and interested!! I don't think I've ever heard the whole story about the Newcomer (sorry I misspelled it earlier) photo and how Greg discovered the exact location.

Greg - if you have the time, would you be willing to share how that all happened?

 

[markmar]

Here I marked on a GE topo map and a GE image the place where the Ruth's skull was found in regards with the Newcomer's photo with the Squaw Canyon in the backround ( red dot ) , and about half mile away , the only side canyon at that distance and 100 feet above the canyon floor , the place where the Ruth's body supposedly was found ( blue dot ) .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

markmar,

You are within 20-30 feet or so of both the red dot (Ruth's skull) and blue dot (Ruth's remains).

When Sheriff MacFadden went out in January of 1932 to view the site where Ruth's skeleton/remains were recovered he built a monument of rocks on the spot. (your blue dot)

Today that monument of rocks is gone but a rock at the site is etched with the words, Ruth found here.

Neither the skull site nor the remains site are hard to find.

Best,

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

[Joe - you stated the following in an earlier post - can you clarify as I don't recall anything like that ever being discussed...]

"I have always believed that someone was being protected by a powerful presence of the time. The fact that that same person's family member was being taken advantage of by Ruth's son, created something of a vendetta against the Ruth family."

I believe I have told you the story, as it was told to me. My source has told me, any number of times, that I could pass along most of the information he told me, but it was not to be publically posted. I have not been released from that agreement yet, so it will remain private.....pretty much. I believe most of the old timers and locals know the story, but you don't hear it bandied about.

My memory is really fading fast these days, so I try to hold these private stories close to my vest. You would have been one of the few people I would trust with the story.

Take care and keep the fire going,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I will add this.......I believe the two people who were being protected were, Bill Barkley and, by association, Brownie Holmes. I don't believe Ruth's body was originally found anywhere near Needle Canyon or Black Top. If only, say, two people originally knew where Ruth's remains were, once they were moved, the truth was buried forever. There did not need to be a huge conspiracy, such as Matthew has surmised.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan64,

The reason I mentioned the saddle area directly east of Tim’s saddle and on the east side of West Boulder Canyon as a “hot area” is:

From that saddle you have a beautiful view of Weavers Needle as “some people say,” looks like the view Adolph Ruth was looking for.

Also there were old mining claims on the ridge with that saddle and at one time there were large claim markers with rock piled and stacked 6 feet high or more. Not only in that ridgetop saddle but also to the ridge directly south and the saddles on that ridge overlooking West Boulder Canyon. Old newspaper accounts tell of prospecting/mining efforts in that area by the same men who discovered the Mammoth mine at goldfield. There is little left of the mining on those ridge saddles today save for a few shallow holes. All of the old 6-foot high rock pile markers are gone today. I don’t know who destroyed them but I strongly suspect the Forest Service.

Matthew

Matthew,

Years ago, I told of the two monuments my brother and I found up on that ridge. The first one had a site hole built into it that pointed directly to the second monument which was hidden behind a small hill. I posted a picture of a saddle with Weaver's Needle framed in it, and asked if anyone knew where that saddle was. You and I exchanged a few posts about it, and sometime later you eventually identified the correct saddle. At a guess, I believe Greg pointed you in the right direction as you did not know where it was at first.

Over many posts about those monuments, you never once mentioned the highlighted portion of your quote above. For the life of me, I can't figure out why you didn't mention those monuments. Can you explain?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

[Joe - you stated the following in an earlier post - can you clarify as I don't recall anything like that ever being discussed...]

"I have always believed that someone was being protected by a powerful presence of the time. The fact that that same person's family member was being taken advantage of by Ruth's son, created something of a vendetta against the Ruth family."

I believe I have told you the story, as it was told to me. My source has told me, any number of times, that I could pass along most of the information he told me, but it was not to be publically posted. I have not been released from that agreement yet, so it will remain private.....pretty much. I believe most of the old timers and locals know the story, but you don't hear it bandied about.

My memory is really fading fast these days, so I try to hold these private stories close to my vest. You would have been one of the few people I would trust with the story.

Take care and keep the fire going,

Joe

Joe - if you told me the story, I must have forgotten it because none of it rings any bells. I received some information the other day that I think explains what you were talking about, but it's not anything I remembered.

Did you get a chance to look at post #49 in this thread? Can you clarify whether what you found was magnetite or a manganese ore? On one of the other forums years ago you stated it was manganese and found it interesting because you believe Adolph may have been looking for manganese which in the mid 1930's Erwin Ruth got involved with.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe - if you told me the story, I must have forgotten it because none of it rings any bells. I received some information the other day that I think explains what you were talking about, but it's not anything I remembered.

Did you get a chance to look at post #49 in this thread? Can you clarify whether what you found was magnetite or a manganese ore? On one of the other forums years ago you stated it was manganese and found it interesting because you believe Adolph may have been looking for manganese which in the mid 1930's Erwin Ruth got involved with.

Paul,

As you may remember, I don't really know $#!t about rocks. I don't remember what my friend, specifically, named the rocks, but I remember looking it up at the time and finding it was often associated with gold. I couldn't tell you the difference between the two. I don't know, for a fact, what Ruth was looking for. It may just be another coincidence that that outcropping was found in the center of a triangle and just below the heart formation. At this point in my life, I will have to leave it to others to make some kind of connection. The Dell Monte Claim, up in the saddle just may have something to do with it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

deducer,

You are on the right trail.
There are those who will say the account Walter Gassler gave of Tex Barkley finding Ruth on Peters Mesa and moving his body is not true. That either Tex or Walter lied, or both.

But consider this. When Tex told this story to Walter he not only implicated himself, he implicated the man who helped him move Ruth's body (Tom Dickens).
And consider that Tom Dickens was alive and well and available to Gassler when Tex told the story to Walter.
Had the story not been true, Barkley might have implicated himself, but surely not another person who was still alive.

Best,

Matthew

Matthew

If Tex moved the body , then there could be another twist of the Ruth's death .
Let's look on what happened from the day one of Ruth's quest in that summer :

- June 13 , 1931 Purnell and Keenan leaded Ruth at his camp at Williw Spring in West Boulder Canyon
- After few days , Purnell and Keenan , on a sheduled visit to Ruth's camp , realized how Ruth is missed few days from his camp , maybe one or two days after his arriving .
- Purnell and Keenan went to Cal Morse ranch and told the bad news .
- Cal Morse called the Maricopa sheriff , maybe because believed ( could Ruth told him what he would do ) Ruth followed the conyons floor ( to avoid a tedious hike ) from West Boulder Canyon into Needle Canyon .
- Also Cal Morse contacted Ruth family for the bad news .
- Ruth family gave a recompense for those who would find Ruth in any condition , so there could been more parties which would search for Ruth . In one of these parties was Tex with other ranchers and the Maricopa sheriff's right hand .
- Ruth's skull was found in December 11 ,1931 , at the north side and close to the junction of Dutcman's trail with Bull Pass trail .
- Ruth's remains were found in January 8 , 1932 , in a Black Top Mesa south eastern side arroyo , close to the Needle Canyon .

Now , i will use the logic to write my opinion . And the questions which arise are :

- When found the time Tex and Tom to go alone in the mountains and to find so quicly the Ruth's body ?
- How they took the risk to move the body ( which should have started a decomposition ) to an area about 2 miles afar on very frequent traveled trails ? There could been people who would been looking for Ruth .
- Why they didn't leave the body on the trail to be easy find , and left it more than 100 feet afar from the trail in a brushy place ? Was this an act to perform a more decomposition of Ruth's body which would result the lost of evidence of body's moving to another place ?

After these questions , some conclusions arise too :

- If Tex told the truth to Gassler , then is more possible Tex or Tom to have killed Ruth before Ruth's missing was announced ,because after the announcment all the eyes would been on all who played a role in Ruth's saga .
- The motivation how they moved the body to keep the cows grazing area afar from treasure hunters , is a cheap one IMO . They could hide/bury the body in a crevace and nobody would find Ruth forever . But if they were so humanists and wanted Ruth's body to be found even in another place , this would stand up if Tex would moved the body and after that he would claimed Ruth's body finding in the last place . So he could take the reward and the fame . Why did they keep the Ruth's body location secret ? Maybe because was too soon to claim it , in the time frame when all believed/knew Ruth was still alive and searching ?

Have a good Sunday

 

[wrmickel1]

Marius

Its kinda irrelevant where Ruth was found, unless your trying to prove the body was moved.
What is important is Every treasure hunter headed to basically one place after Waltz Died. That is where the ledgen was
placed early on. Then comes the Stone Maps and Travis finding them in the south of the range, Even Herman change his
location as to where Him Julia and his brother camped. Herman's first accounts to where they camped is mostly spot on.
There were quite a few claimed staked shortly after Waltz died all though the goldfield area and east of there with in a mile. All the early Treasure hunters went there including Ruth. After that east and the south started being played into the
Ledgen and still is. Goldfield to the Salt, The Salt to Willow Springs was the Target Area. Was Waltz's Target Area. Herman
and Julia stay a little to the east of willow springs.

Ruth chose willow because he was mostly likely told to go there by the Gonzales which the map was to that area.
Mostly likely a SOJ mine.

babymick1

 

[markmar]

Mick

I am not trying to prove how the Ruth's body was moved , but I wrote my opinion and my conclusions on IF Tex would moved the Ruth's body . Another thing which make think how the body was moved , is how the skull was found very afar from the body . This seems to me like someone cut Ruth's head to hide the murder evidence which was the bullet holes . Also , Ruth's false denture was found with his remains and not with the skull . Was this another attempt to remove from the skull the connection with Ruth ?

I believe the legend of Waltz mine covers the whole Superstitions Mountains and the surrounding areas . And yes , one of Gonzales map was for the LDMs , but another was for a different mine which we have heard about in more than one story .

 

[Cubfan64]

Here's a problem I have with all the "who killed Ruth" stuff...

Many of us have been in the Superstition Mountains and are well aware of how rough and remote much of the area is. There weren't hikers out there every weekend like there are now, and while there were likely other explorers, prospectors, etc... out there around the time Ruth went in, it wasn't a great time "heatwise" to be in the mountains so I don't think there were many.

So for what reason would a killer leave a body out in the open somewhere it could be found? Putting myself in the position of the killer I would certainly do whatever it took to hide any evidence of foul play as I wouldn't want anyone looking into a possible murder. Bury the body, burn it, dump it into a crevice, or any number of things. The only thing that gives me pause is that the skull was described as being "green" when it was found - perhaps if someone did really kill him they did bury him somewhere and animals dug up the carcass.

It would be nice to go back in time and find out what really happened to him.

 

[Bavarian Joe]

Here's a problem I have with all the "who killed Ruth" stuff...

Many of us have been in the Superstition Mountains and are well aware of how rough and remote much of the area is. There weren't hikers out there every weekend like there are now, and while there were likely other explorers, prospectors, etc... out there around the time Ruth went in, it wasn't a great time "heatwise" to be in the mountains so I don't think there were many.

So for what reason would a killer leave a body out in the open somewhere it could be found? Putting myself in the position of the killer I would certainly do whatever it took to hide any evidence of foul play as I wouldn't want anyone looking into a possible murder. Bury the body, burn it, dump it into a crevice, or any number of things. The only thing that gives me pause is that the skull was described as being "green" when it was found - perhaps if someone did really kill him they did bury him somewhere and animals dug up the carcass.

It would be nice to go back in time and find out what really happened to him.

Perhaps the body was left out in the open to send a message? Nothing quite says "stay away" like finding a fellow enthusiast's corpse with a bullet in his head.

 

[wrmickel1]

Mick

I am not trying to prove how the Ruth's body was moved , but I wrote my opinion and my conclusions on IF Tex would moved the Ruth's body . Another thing which make think how the body was moved , is how the skull was found very afar from the body . This seems to me like someone cut Ruth's head to hide the murder evidence which was the bullet holes . Also , Ruth's false denture was found with his remains and not with the skull . Was this another attempt to remove from the skull the connection with Ruth ?

I believe the legend of Waltz mine covers the whole Superstitions Mountains and the surrounding areas . And yes , one of Gonzales map was for the LDMs , but another was for a different mine which we have heard about in more than one story .

The autopsy report said Died of natural causes I'll believe that, weather the body moved who knows

 

[wrmickel1]

Mick

I am not trying to prove how the Ruth's body was moved , but I wrote my opinion and my conclusions on IF Tex would moved the Ruth's body . Another thing which make think how the body was moved , is how the skull was found very afar from the body . This seems to me like someone cut Ruth's head to hide the murder evidence which was the bullet holes . Also , Ruth's false denture was found with his remains and not with the skull . Was this another attempt to remove from the skull the connection with Ruth ?

I believe the legend of Waltz mine covers the whole Superstitions Mountains and the surrounding areas . And yes , one of Gonzales map was for the LDMs , but another was for a different mine which we have heard about in more than one story .

Maruis

The autopsy would have proven his head to be hacked off. And as far as dentures they were carried in a pocket till eating time back then, They had no Polly grip or other adhesive to keep them in. So it was common up to about the 60's to have them in there case.

Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

I don't believe it covers the whole Superstition Range, It funneled every gold seeker after waltz's passing into a 2mile by 2 mile Box. Now does the SOJ mining interest cover the whole range. Absolutely

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Markmar

If and when you go there you'll find mine after mine in there, The earliest one will be carved in as a Arch, SOJ
Mexican ones Timbered or just rat holed
later ones Chisel marks left front to back.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Here's a problem I have with all the "who killed Ruth" stuff...

Many of us have been in the Superstition Mountains and are well aware of how rough and remote much of the area is. There weren't hikers out there every weekend like there are now, and while there were likely other explorers, prospectors, etc... out there around the time Ruth went in, it wasn't a great time "heatwise" to be in the mountains so I don't think there were many.

So for what reason would a killer leave a body out in the open somewhere it could be found? Putting myself in the position of the killer I would certainly do whatever it took to hide any evidence of foul play as I wouldn't want anyone looking into a possible murder. Bury the body, burn it, dump it into a crevice, or any number of things. The only thing that gives me pause is that the skull was described as being "green" when it was found - perhaps if someone did really kill him they did bury him somewhere and animals dug up the carcass.

It would be nice to go back in time and find out what really happened to him.

back then if someone died in the supers they didn't really care why or how....the only reason there was any investigation at all is because ruth had family that raised a big stink....the authorities probably didn't care if they found the killers.....they just had to put on a show to pacify the ruth's....they had other matters in town to take care of...if ruth had no family to ask questions they would have just tossed him into a hole..covered him up and called it good..back then they didn't have a million government agencies to investigate things like this..it was just the local law and they had better things to do than trying to figure out who killed an old treasure hunter

 

[Cubfan64]

back then if someone died in the supers they didn't really care why or how....the only reason there was any investigation at all is because ruth had family that raised a big stink....the authorities probably didn't care if they found the killers.....they just had to put on a show to pacify the ruth's....they had other matters in town to take care of...if ruth had no family to ask questions they would have just tossed him into a hole..covered him up and called it good..back then they didn't have a million government agencies to investigate things like this..it was just the local law and they had better things to do than trying to figure out who killed an old treasure hunter

Dave - that's a great point and I can't argue it. Heck, we heard rumors of possible odd circumstances around the deaths of Jesse Capan as well as the guys found by Rick Gwynn and I get the feeling the authorities really didn't want to dig too deeply into any possible foul play stories and those were recent. I can't help but agree that back then there were more important things to deal with than a "crazy prospector" dying in the mountains unless there was a witness to the murder or something. You're right that the Ruth thing wouldn't have made news except for who he and his family were. I doubt we'll ever really know what happened to him, who may have been involved or where it actually happened. Who knows, maybe he had plans to meet someone else out there who would take him around to some places and ended up having a heart attack or something.

Oh well - it'll always be an interesting intellectual discussion.