Extremely Rare pale gold Tremissis Dorestad (Madelinus) 680-700 a.d.(New Photos)

[woody50]

Found this tiny pale gold coin in bad condition with a bunch of other stuff on what I think was a virgin field, so many finds in a short time.

Other finds was a old thimble (beehive, cast); a neat little toy (tin); a hanger; nice little silver buckle with a heart on it; a hanger; pair other silver coins and a bunch of copper/bronze coins. Everything in not so good condition, I had to find that stuff years ago. (found yesterday in Holland).

There was also on the field a deep well (bricks)! Never seen anything like that in a field. Dangerous for the night hawkers for sure. No house close by, and did not see any relics that would show that a house or building was removed, everything was clean. Deep well too, just in the soil, they plow right over it! Photos see below.

About the well, it is very good that we are always looking at the ground is it not Just imagine if you did not look at that moment!

I received an determination today from a curator:
"This is pale gold tremissis or silver denarius of the Dorestad moneyer Madelinus, or an imitation of the type produced in Frisia or the Meuse region."

My only question about this determination is that Dorestad was located IN Frisia. Made and imitated in the same place. Could be.
A second determination was made and agrees with Martin's findings.
The same coin is shown here: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1852533
(Thanks to CRU for searching and finding it!)

Was back on the field today, the farmer was starting to seed it. Did not find much, coins and one silver.... (I guess I am too good of a detectorist, I did not leave anything for the next searcher (which happened to be me!).

 

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[CRUSADER]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Great thimble , as far as the coin goes , Byzantine according to my books, a Merovingian coin (tremisses), moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD, maybe
The link below has a gold version, I haven't found an exact copy in silver yet. Nice finds mate
http://www.icollector.com/MEDIEVAL-...-Tremissis-moneyer-Madelinus-AV-1-25_i8745210
hammered

Thanks Hammered, you appear to be correct, good searching! Like I mentioned to Cru, I looked last night and it does appear to be gold plated in the past. I don't know if they did create this coin in silver, could be of course. Then just take one of those, gold plate it and you have a gold coin. Made an comparison between the two coins, pretty darn close.

These used to be worth an old Saxon Shilling & by covering silver with gold, it would increase its value by at least 10. So I'm hoping its an contemporary counterfiet This might turn into a banner find, can't wait for the ID

 

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[Silver Searcher]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Great thimble , as far as the coin goes , Byzantine according to my books, a Merovingian coin (tremisses), moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD, maybe
The link below has a gold version, I haven't found an exact copy in silver yet. Nice finds mate

http://www.icollector.com/MEDIEVAL-...-Tremissis-moneyer-Madelinus-AV-1-25_i8745210


hammered

Yes Ian they were of Silver, In England a small number of coins continued to be brought in from Gaul and elsewhere on the Continent.
c. 550–c. 680: the ‘gold’ phase of currency, which began with an increase in the rate of importation of continental gold, principally in the form of tremisses. From around 620 English gold coins of similar format were produced, often known as thrymsas. By the middle of the 7th century the quantity of gold in these coins was falling quickly, such that by the 670s they were more or less completely silver. But as this is, like you say a Tremisses, it's unlikely it would be made of Silver, unless it's a Contemporary Copy
This looks to me to be a cast copy, the edges look wrong, as doe's the cross..it seems very flat as if made from a impression. But I would have loved to have found it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_dynasty

SS

 

[steelheadwill]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Beautiful thimble and Madelinus

 

[woody50]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Great thimble , as far as the coin goes , Byzantine according to my books, a Merovingian coin (tremisses), moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD, maybe
The link below has a gold version, I haven't found an exact copy in silver yet. Nice finds mate

http://www.icollector.com/MEDIEVAL-...-Tremissis-moneyer-Madelinus-AV-1-25_i8745210


hammered

Yes Ian they were of Silver, In England a small number of coins continued to be brought in from Gaul and elsewhere on the Continent.
c. 550–c. 680: the ‘gold’ phase of currency, which began with an increase in the rate of importation of continental gold, principally in the form of tremisses. From around 620 English gold coins of similar format were produced, often known as thrymsas. By the middle of the 7th century the quantity of gold in these coins was falling quickly, such that by the 670s they were more or less completely silver. But as this is, like you say a Tremisses, it's unlikely it would be made of Silver, unless it's a Contemporary Copy
This looks to me to be a cast copy, the edges look wrong, as doe's the cross..it seems very flat as if made from a impression. But I would have loved to have found it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_dynasty
SS

Like you say SS, seeing them side by side mine sure seems crude. Could be a fake. Discovered in an ancient trading place. But like you say, it was great to find it in anycase! Waiting on Martin for a determination. BTW the locked message at the start of 'Today's finds' by PBK does not apply here. I am open to suggestions, any. To me also it looks quite different when compared to a gold one, but will wait and see. I was happy to see the coin after quite a few years here in not finding one. Found one years ago in Friesland (other part of Holland).

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Great thimble , as far as the coin goes , Byzantine according to my books, a Merovingian coin (tremisses), moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD, maybe
The link below has a gold version, I haven't found an exact copy in silver yet. Nice finds mate

http://www.icollector.com/MEDIEVAL-...-Tremissis-moneyer-Madelinus-AV-1-25_i8745210


hammered

Yes Ian they were of Silver, In England a small number of coins continued to be brought in from Gaul and elsewhere on the Continent.
c. 550–c. 680: the ‘gold’ phase of currency, which began with an increase in the rate of importation of continental gold, principally in the form of tremisses. From around 620 English gold coins of similar format were produced, often known as thrymsas. By the middle of the 7th century the quantity of gold in these coins was falling quickly, such that by the 670s they were more or less completely silver. But as this is, like you say a Tremisses, it's unlikely it would be made of Silver, unless it's a Contemporary Copy
This looks to me to be a cast copy, the edges look wrong, as doe's the cross..it seems very flat as if made from a impression. But I would have loved to have found it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_dynasty
SS

Like you say SS, seeing them side by side mine sure seems crude. Could be a fake. Discovered in an ancient trading place. But like you say, it was great to find it in anycase! Waiting on Martin for a determination. BTW the locked message at the start of 'Today's finds' by PBK does not apply here. I am open to suggestions, any. To me also it looks quite different when compared to a gold one, but will wait and see. I was happy to see the coin after quite a few years here in not finding one. Found one years ago in Friesland (other part of Holland).

Even if it is a forgery, it still makes it a wonderfull find, and to some a bit more interesting, who knows perhaps it was just crudely made, and the Gold dip just worn away, I will vote Banner on this find either way, because it is so rare..

SS

 

[woody50]

Re: Tiny silver coin

Great thimble , as far as the coin goes , Byzantine according to my books, a Merovingian coin (tremisses), moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD, maybe
The link below has a gold version, I haven't found an exact copy in silver yet. Nice finds mate

http://www.icollector.com/MEDIEVAL-...-Tremissis-moneyer-Madelinus-AV-1-25_i8745210


hammered

Yes Ian they were of Silver, In England a small number of coins continued to be brought in from Gaul and elsewhere on the Continent.
c. 550–c. 680: the ‘gold’ phase of currency, which began with an increase in the rate of importation of continental gold, principally in the form of tremisses. From around 620 English gold coins of similar format were produced, often known as thrymsas. By the middle of the 7th century the quantity of gold in these coins was falling quickly, such that by the 670s they were more or less completely silver. But as this is, like you say a Tremisses, it's unlikely it would be made of Silver, unless it's a Contemporary Copy
This looks to me to be a cast copy, the edges look wrong, as doe's the cross..it seems very flat as if made from a impression. But I would have loved to have found it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merovingian_dynasty
SS

Like you say SS, seeing them side by side mine sure seems crude. Could be a fake. Discovered in an ancient trading place. But like you say, it was great to find it in anycase! Waiting on Martin for a determination. BTW the locked message at the start of 'Today's finds' by PBK does not apply here. I am open to suggestions, any. To me also it looks quite different when compared to a gold one, but will wait and see. I was happy to see the coin after quite a few years here in not finding one. Found one years ago in Friesland (other part of Holland).

Even if it is a forgery, it still makes it a wonderfull find, and to some a bit more interesting, who knows perhaps it was just crudely made, and the Gold dip just worn away, I will vote Banner on this find either way, because it is so rare..

SS

Well I do agree with you, rare. You almost never find such a coin anymore, or ever. Thanks

 

[woody50]

Re: Tiny silver coin 15mm, 1.09g, possible Madelinus, 680-700 AD ------UPDATE-----

UPDATE.

There are three new photos at the start of this topic.

I received an determination today from a medieval coin curator.


"This is pale gold tremissis or silver denarius of the Dorestad moneyer Madelinus, or an imitation of the type produced in Frisia or the Meuse region."

Since we are in the Frisia area I do think that is correct. So we know what it is in any case!

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Tiny silver coin 15mm, 1.09g, possible Madelinus, 680-700 AD ------UPDATE-----

UPDATE.

There are three new photos at the start of this topic.

I received an determination today;


"This is pale gold tremissis or silver denarius of the Dorestad moneyer Madelinus, or an imiitation of the type produced in Frisia or the Meuse region."

Since we are in the Frisia area I do think that is correct. So we know what it is in any case!

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1852533
Similar sold quite well & rare as well

I'm voting

 

[woody50]

Re: Tiny silver coin 15mm, 1.09g, possible Madelinus, 680-700 AD ------UPDATE-----

UPDATE.

There are three new photos at the start of this topic.
I received an determination today from a coin curator......
"This is pale gold tremissis or silver denarius of the Dorestad moneyer Madelinus, or an imiitation of the type produced in Frisia or the Meuse region."
Since we are in the Frisia area I do think that is correct. So we know what it is in any case!

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1852533
Similar sold quite well & rare as well

I'm voting

Thanks a lot for your help and searching for me, wonderful work Cru! I am glad we know exactly what it is. Sure did want to find another yesterday, but found nothing that old. Raising the silver coins found from yesterday from one to three. Still have to try to get them clean, man that is tough stuff that covers all the finds. Still don't know what it is, but its hard and tough.

Cru, did you see the well on the field? The farmer planted grass yesterday in the field, today its raining cats and dogs. Just seeded it in time. Just think about your tractor if you forget the well is there! I would have removed the well by now. Will get on of the bricks when the grass has grown a bit in the following months, to see if it is old. If so I will try to get permission to remove it and see what it contains. Water wells here mostly don't have much ceramic in them, but some do. Funny place for a well, I do not see any bricks or stuff which could have been left over from a house or something like that. And the bricks or well is very well made (did not get a photo of that). Wierd.

 

[maipenrai]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Well, you did very well, and finding that well; what can I say, except, well, that was great!

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Well, you did very well, and finding that well; what can I say, except, well, that was great!

Scary if the grass or weeds are high and you are walking around, or driving a tractor. I could ruin the front end of the tractor very easy. Never saw something like that! Am going to investigate it further in a few months.

 

[maipenrai]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

What did the owner of the land say about the well? Did he dig it himself, or was it from before? might be interesting to have a look at the bottom some day, although its probably filled with a lot of dirt from plowing.

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

What did the owner of the land say about the well? Did he dig it himself, or was it from before? might be interesting to have a look at the bottom some day, although its probably filled with a lot of dirt from plowing.

Did not (yet) ask him, he was so busy with seeding, going on vacation (Caribbean) pretty soon and he wanted to get everything done. I agree, it will be full of dirt that is for sure, but when I look carefully I think its not so long ago that the top was broken off the well, it has (or had) a domed roof, so maybe it would not be so bad. The water is very clear.

I think I should not call it a well, but more a cistern (which is a reservoir, tank, or container for storing or holding water or other liquid), but I don't know how it was used in the middle of a field.
Will try to ask... If it was a cistern it would not contain anything valuable I'm pretty sure.

I do have the tools to do some testing in the cistern, only the mud might get in the way. Use the tools to search in the old canals in the villages, but have not done that for some time now.

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Cru, I am beginning to wonder about this coin. Like I mentioned the crude on all the finds is special, I have never came across such a 'patina' (but in the bad sense), and still have not found anything that would remove it. I will be trying electrolysis on some of the bad finds to see if that works.

What I am wondering about, I just looked at the coin in the daylight (well its pretty cloudy too) and I am not seeing pure silver, it has what the curator says 'pale gold' color. I just don't know what he means about pale gold (gold with silver?).

There does not really appear to be a silver oxide patina on it, and I was wondering about that because when it came out of the ground the one side had sort of rubbed off parts which could not have really happened in the field, they were clean, no patina and no oxide. The more and more I think about it the 'pale gold' idea does not sound bad.

But how to continue......any suggestions?

(Oh yea, just looked again in the microscope and it does look 'a slight yellow silver color'...)

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Another example: http://numismatics.org/collection/1957.93.1
OR: If unable to access, go to American Numismatic Society; keyword: 1957.93.1
Don.....

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Cru, I am beginning to wonder about this coin. Like I mentioned the crude on all the finds is special, I have never came across such a 'patina' (but in the bad sense), and still have not found anything that would remove it. I will be trying electrolysis on some of the bad finds to see if that works.

What I am wondering about, I just looked at the coin in the daylight (well its pretty cloudy too) and I am not seeing pure silver, it has what the curator says 'pale gold' color. I just don't know what he means about pale gold (gold with silver?).

There does not really appear to be a silver oxide patina on it, and I was wondering about that because when it came out of the ground the one side had sort of rubbed off parts which could not have really happened in the field, they were clean, no patina and no oxide. The more and more I think about it the 'pale gold' idea does not sound bad.

But how to continue......any suggestions?

(Oh yea, just looked again in the microscope and it does look 'a slight yellow silver color'...)

I know, next to nothing on these, plus I've no heard that expression before. However, I know of gold & silver mixes for other coins, so could be possible

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Cru, I am beginning to wonder about this coin. Like I mentioned the crude on all the finds is special, I have never came across such a 'patina' (but in the bad sense), and still have not found anything that would remove it. I will be trying electrolysis on some of the bad finds to see if that works.

What I am wondering about, I just looked at the coin in the daylight (well its pretty cloudy too) and I am not seeing pure silver, it has what the curator says 'pale gold' color. I just don't know what he means about pale gold (gold with silver?).

There does not really appear to be a silver oxide patina on it, and I was wondering about that because when it came out of the ground the one side had sort of rubbed off parts which could not have really happened in the field, they were clean, no patina and no oxide. The more and more I think about it the 'pale gold' idea does not sound bad.

But how to continue......any suggestions?

(Oh yea, just looked again in the microscope and it does look 'a slight yellow silver color'...)

I know, next to nothing on these, plus I've no heard that expression before. However, I know of gold & silver mixes for other coins, so could be possible

Well I myself never heard about pale gold either but it does exist, just like a number of other gold colors.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_gold

So pale gold is usually a mix between silver, copper and gold, but could the mixing of other metals also.

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

Another example: http://numismatics.org/collection/1957.93.1
OR: If unable to access, go to American Numismatic Society; keyword: 1957.93.1
Don.....

Hello Mackaydon! Yes it sure does look like that one; thanks for finding it.
Seeing the text on that page:

Geographical Locations:
Region: Netherlands
Locality: Dorestad
Mint: Dorestad

And since it was found in The Netherlands, that must be it!

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

To any of you interested in history, google Dorestad, The Netherlands. In the early middle ages it was the largest settlement in NorthWest Europe (Frisia). A great story about a old world city with a roman fortress that does not exist anymore. It was 3 kilometers long, and the capital of The Netherlands, Germany and Friesland at that time, and was also the center of northwest european trading. I never knew it had existed, and had even not heard about all the many failed Viking raids. In 850 it became the Viking Kingdom of Dorestad which lasted until 885. After that it shrunk!

 

[woody50]

Re: Rare Silver Tremissis Dorestad, moneyer Madelinus, 680-700 AD (Determined!)

I will show the gold color scale here for reference, I think that the link I gave previously is pretty good to know about gold colors and how they are made.