Hal Croves
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I can see this with Kino because of the timing but, the entire order?
Father C. Polzer and the Tumlinson Stones
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I can see this with Kino because of the timing but, the entire order?
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Hal, in general, yes, but mostly in North America. South America was another matter/
Hal Croves
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wrmickel1
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Hi Joe
By the way you choose to start your rebuttal.
Kind a say's it all. Even if that's true! So you probably have a few books about it and kind a believe it is true yourself.
No Joe I have no books and my only sources are a few natives that I have worked with Pima Apache and I'm thinking
a Odium, not real sure that's right but he had a lot of tells, and the others had a few. Now the real question is why do they even got those tales if It's not True.
Wrmickel1
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First - I am not aware that father Polzer actually published any article or book about the Peralta stones. I believe he was approached for his expert opinion on them, not that he sought them out so he could write about them.
That said, and while Polzer's reputation as a historian is stellar, really IMHO his statements must be taken with a grain of salt. He was after all a Jesuit, and all Jesuits are literally sworn to defend their Order even from a bad reputation. They take these oaths very seriously, even if most people don't think of vows and oaths anything like that. That he was a Jesuit does not make his opinion(s) automatically invalid, it only means that you should keep that in mind when weighing out opinions stated etc. He was and remains a respected historian, mainly any doubts would only be where some historical fact or evidence which might cast a shadow on the Jesuits and really there is nothing about the Peralta Stones which screams "Jesuit". You would expect to see at the very least an "I H S" if they were supposedly Jesuit map stones.
Last point and I will close this, but it still surprises me that so many people view the Peralta stones as if the world were black and white. We do not know that all of the stones were created by Tumlinson for instance, he may have only carved one or two, or as he admitted, altered one or more to protect his interests. Even the experts have said that the carving and inscription were done by at least two different hands, so if Tumlinson was one, who or whom was the other? NOT taking the position that all of the Peralta stones are the genuine article, for they are real stones and are real maps, just think that people may be too quick to make assumptions, lumping all together as if they were practically identical. Heck one is not even the same kind of stone, that ought to be a clue that a closer look and an OPEN MIND are in order. To put it another way, suppose you found four different US paper notes (money) in four different denominations. An expert looks at one and says it is a fake, do you automatically assume that all of the bills must then be fakes?
I must fall into the Groaners class here as this topic has lost much interest for me, please do continue and feel free to ignore everything I just posted. Good luck and good hunting amigos, please do continue.
That said, and while Polzer's reputation as a historian is stellar, really IMHO his statements must be taken with a grain of salt. He was after all a Jesuit, and all Jesuits are literally sworn to defend their Order even from a bad reputation. They take these oaths very seriously, even if most people don't think of vows and oaths anything like that. That he was a Jesuit does not make his opinion(s) automatically invalid, it only means that you should keep that in mind when weighing out opinions stated etc. He was and remains a respected historian, mainly any doubts would only be where some historical fact or evidence which might cast a shadow on the Jesuits and really there is nothing about the Peralta Stones which screams "Jesuit". You would expect to see at the very least an "I H S" if they were supposedly Jesuit map stones.
Last point and I will close this, but it still surprises me that so many people view the Peralta stones as if the world were black and white. We do not know that all of the stones were created by Tumlinson for instance, he may have only carved one or two, or as he admitted, altered one or more to protect his interests. Even the experts have said that the carving and inscription were done by at least two different hands, so if Tumlinson was one, who or whom was the other? NOT taking the position that all of the Peralta stones are the genuine article, for they are real stones and are real maps, just think that people may be too quick to make assumptions, lumping all together as if they were practically identical. Heck one is not even the same kind of stone, that ought to be a clue that a closer look and an OPEN MIND are in order. To put it another way, suppose you found four different US paper notes (money) in four different denominations. An expert looks at one and says it is a fake, do you automatically assume that all of the bills must then be fakes?
I must fall into the Groaners class here as this topic has lost much interest for me, please do continue and feel free to ignore everything I just posted. Good luck and good hunting amigos, please do continue.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
WRM,
To be clear, I don't believe in the popular stories of Jesuit treasure or mines. That does not mean the Native stories are without merit. Their view of the world and the things that happened around them was molded by superstition, religion and myth. The efforts of the Shamans/Medicine men to discredit the new religions and priests who were being forced into their world, included lies and half truths. From those things, uprisings were born.
The Native Americans of today are not the same as the old ones. Many of the youth have no idea of their true history, much like our own young people. You should not turn up your nose at the many fine works that have been written about that history, with the help of those old ones. I have dozens of such books by folks who spent decades with the people. There is a tremendous amount to be learned, for those who are truly interested.
As one who worked on the archaeology history of the Battle of the Little Big Horn, you should have an appreciation of the history that can be dug up and recorded for us all.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe I do respect your opinions, yet on this particular one, there are times when it baffles me that you would continue to hold to the line as father Polzer proposed, namely that there were no Jesuit mines and/or treasures. Especially so since you do not need to BELIEVE in them, not when you can literally STAND in some of them, like the Salero mine:
<USGS photo dating to 1909>
You can put your hands on the smelter slag built right into the walls of the Franciscan missions of San Xavier del Bac and Tumacacori, which by the fact they are used as building materials, should indicate the slag predates the arrival of the Franciscans and just what missionaries were occupying Arizona prior to them but the Jesuits? We have a Jesuit padre that wrote in a private letter to his brother in Europe complaining that he could not "work the silver mines" as he would like, due to the hostile enemy Indians, we have father Kino's own letter to Rome in which he complained that his shipment of some 800 ounces of silver bullion had somehow vanished. I just don't know what it takes to show you that our modern historians including Polzer have it wrong. It is hardly the only such example in which our modern historians are doctoring the truth about history, to serve their own agendas as you know only too well.
Not trying to embarrass you over this either, nor re-litigate the topic; I thought you had posted in another thread that you were willing to allow that at least SOME mining had apparently been done by the good Jesuit padres, yet not long after that post we are right back to square one and you don't believe they ever had any mines or treasures. I would suggest to re-read that long and contentious thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you have the free time some several nights and nothing else to do. Alternatively, I might ask what has convinced you that all of our previous discussion (and evidence) was wrong, and that father Polzer had it right after all?
The Little Bighorn is another case where the official history has changed over time, but some persons with private agendas <basically modern revisionist historians> have been playing loose with the facts to present a fictitious history. Look at how the Apaches are talked about today, as if they were nothing to be concerned about, yet if you read the letters and news articles of that day, they were among the most feared enemies on the frontier, and not only for their predatory raids and ambushes but in some cases even stand-up fights against the Army, worthy of our Civil War, as happened at the battle of Apache Pass as just one example of several. The modern revisionists are busily re-painting our past, and sadly, none too accurately. I am all for the 'warts and all' approach, but also to grant credit where due, and blame where due. There is a reason why so many of the lost mine and treasure tales can be traced to Indians whom had been the mission Indians under the Jesuit padres, and where there is smoke, you know the story!
Please do continue amigos, no offense intended to anyone especially my amigo Joe, for our friend Cactusjumper is a most learned historian in his own right.
<USGS photo dating to 1909>You can put your hands on the smelter slag built right into the walls of the Franciscan missions of San Xavier del Bac and Tumacacori, which by the fact they are used as building materials, should indicate the slag predates the arrival of the Franciscans and just what missionaries were occupying Arizona prior to them but the Jesuits? We have a Jesuit padre that wrote in a private letter to his brother in Europe complaining that he could not "work the silver mines" as he would like, due to the hostile enemy Indians, we have father Kino's own letter to Rome in which he complained that his shipment of some 800 ounces of silver bullion had somehow vanished. I just don't know what it takes to show you that our modern historians including Polzer have it wrong. It is hardly the only such example in which our modern historians are doctoring the truth about history, to serve their own agendas as you know only too well.
Not trying to embarrass you over this either, nor re-litigate the topic; I thought you had posted in another thread that you were willing to allow that at least SOME mining had apparently been done by the good Jesuit padres, yet not long after that post we are right back to square one and you don't believe they ever had any mines or treasures. I would suggest to re-read that long and contentious thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you have the free time some several nights and nothing else to do. Alternatively, I might ask what has convinced you that all of our previous discussion (and evidence) was wrong, and that father Polzer had it right after all?
The Little Bighorn is another case where the official history has changed over time, but some persons with private agendas <basically modern revisionist historians> have been playing loose with the facts to present a fictitious history. Look at how the Apaches are talked about today, as if they were nothing to be concerned about, yet if you read the letters and news articles of that day, they were among the most feared enemies on the frontier, and not only for their predatory raids and ambushes but in some cases even stand-up fights against the Army, worthy of our Civil War, as happened at the battle of Apache Pass as just one example of several. The modern revisionists are busily re-painting our past, and sadly, none too accurately. I am all for the 'warts and all' approach, but also to grant credit where due, and blame where due. There is a reason why so many of the lost mine and treasure tales can be traced to Indians whom had been the mission Indians under the Jesuit padres, and where there is smoke, you know the story!
Please do continue amigos, no offense intended to anyone especially my amigo Joe, for our friend Cactusjumper is a most learned historian in his own right.
Last edited:
Hal Croves
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Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Reavis's group of course ORO 
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Joe I do respect your opinions, yet on this particular one, there are times when it baffles me that you would continue to hold to the line as father Polzer proposed, namely that there were no Jesuit mines and/or treasures. Especially so since you do not need to BELIEVE in them, not when you can literally STAND in some of them, like the Salero mine:
View attachment 1368774 <USGS photo dating to 1909>
You can put your hands on the smelter slag built right into the walls of the Franciscan missions of San Xavier del Bac and Tumacacori, which by the fact they are used as building materials, should indicate the slag predates the arrival of the Franciscans and just what missionaries were occupying Arizona prior to them but the Jesuits? We have a Jesuit padre that wrote in a private letter to his brother in Europe complaining that he could not "work the silver mines" as he would like, due to the hostile enemy Indians, we have father Kino's own letter to Rome in which he complained that his shipment of some 800 ounces of silver bullion had somehow vanished. I just don't know what it takes to show you that our modern historians including Polzer have it wrong. It is hardly the only such example in which our modern historians are doctoring the truth about history, to serve their own agendas as you know only too well.
Not trying to embarrass you over this either, nor re-litigate the topic; I thought you had posted in another thread that you were willing to allow that at least SOME mining had apparently been done by the good Jesuit padres, yet not long after that post we are right back to square one and you don't believe they ever had any mines or treasures. I would suggest to re-read that long and contentious thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you have the free time some several nights and nothing else to do. Alternatively, I might ask what has convinced you that all of our previous discussion (and evidence) was wrong, and that father Polzer had it right after all?
The Little Bighorn is another case where the official history has changed over time, but some persons with private agendas <basically modern revisionist historians> have been playing loose with the facts to present a fictitious history. Look at how the Apaches are talked about today, as if they were nothing to be concerned about, yet if you read the letters and news articles of that day, they were among the most feared enemies on the frontier, and not only for their predatory raids and ambushes but in some cases even stand-up fights against the Army, worthy of our Civil War, as happened at the battle of Apache Pass as just one example of several. The modern revisionists are busily re-painting our past, and sadly, none too accurately. I am all for the 'warts and all' approach, but also to grant credit where due, and blame where due. There is a reason why so many of the lost mine and treasure tales can be traced to Indians whom had been the mission Indians under the Jesuit padres, and where there is smoke, you know the story!
Please do continue amigos, no offense intended to anyone especially my amigo Joe, for our friend Cactusjumper is a most learned historian in his own right.
Roy,
What I wrote was, "To be clear, I don't believe in the popular stories of Jesuit treasure or mines." On the other hand, I do believe, as I have stated before, the Jesuits did own or control some mines in Mexico. They did not find these mines but had them willed to the order. If you believe this equates to an opposing opinion...."you don't believe they ever had any mines or treasures", I would say our differences in this topic may lie in semantics.
As you say, we've gone over all the "evidence" you have just repeated. I thought I presented reasonable rebuttals in the past, but perhaps they were illogical. Many people who's opinions I respect believe as you do. That being said, I believe there's room for debate on both sides.
Hope you and Beth make it to the Rendezvous this year. Carolyn and I, along with Dr. Glover, will be there for the day on Saturday.
Take care,
Joe
Real of Tayopa
Bronze Member
Oro, Joe, Tayopa was a fine example of a Jesuit owned mine, and also of a lost mine due to the Apache raids, in a country that was not their territory. The Apache was a viscous raider, who lived by the fruits of his excursions, however there is plenty of evidence that he could live peacefully with his neighbor. One factor that has been underplayed was his penchant for torture, men ,women,or kiddies, it made no difference, although sometimes he adopted a male as an Apache, eliminating to a point the attrition rate on males\.
for over 400 yars he raided into Mexico, the thinly scattered Mexican population was no match for his vicious tactics,, It is no wonder that Mexico placed a bounty on his head. Many of the problems with massacres of Apache could be laid directly to his past actions The Apaches own actions led to his downfall.
Joe, Roy, Beth, neither Bert, nor I, willl be at the rond - we're gettin too damn old. I am 93 now. "Cest La Vie"
you can safely get that steak out of the freezer, if ya haaven't already scarfed it.
for over 400 yars he raided into Mexico, the thinly scattered Mexican population was no match for his vicious tactics,, It is no wonder that Mexico placed a bounty on his head. Many of the problems with massacres of Apache could be laid directly to his past actions The Apaches own actions led to his downfall.
Joe, Roy, Beth, neither Bert, nor I, willl be at the rond - we're gettin too damn old. I am 93 now. "Cest La Vie"
you can safely get that steak out of the freezer, if ya haaven't already scarfed it.
Last edited:
wrmickel1
Bronze Member
Joe, You did not believe my first hand account of what took place a the bighorn, You chose to put your weight in the official written version, it's wrong. Not one word was wrote till all invoked approved! The Gov, Natives and Custer's family. So once again I will say the natives where out gunned till they change the tide of the battle. And for Polzer everything I dug up and a lot goes against all he said.
If Polzer new he sure did'nt tell it like it is!
Wrmickel1
Hal Croves
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This letter, written just after the expulsion, if accurate, paints an entirely different picture of the Jesuits and their success on the frontier.
San Xavier del Bac.
July 29, 1768.
TO CAPTAIN JUAN BAUTISTA DE ANZA.
I arrived at this mission on June 30, having enjoyed the hospitality of your home en route. The graciousness of your wife and family reflects your own good manners and education.
There is nothing new here. The Pimas await my command to go campaigning against the Apaches. These are primitive people, showing no sign of knowing Christian teachings - even in their own language.
The Tucson Pimas have made it known that they want no father but myself, since I have assured them that my purpose in being there is not that they work for me. They have already made me a tiny brush hut in among their own. I have visited them three times and have promised that I will live there a week or two during August, since they are just as much my children as the people here at San Xavier. They are quite pleased at this.
My two soldier escorts are doing very well here. They give the best of example to the Pimas and are very faithful in calling the people to Christian instruction.
As for myself, I am very happy here. I was warned of the hardships that awaited me, but so far these have consisted of but a few flies and mosquitoes. I am told that the Jesuit fathers found it very difficult to subsist here, even with their cattle, horses, and fields. Armed only with my royal stipend, which they had as well, I have not found it so.
I pray to God that he bring you as soon as possible to spend a little time with me at this last outpost. One of page the rooms here is known as "the captain's room." Though it reflects the poverty of Saint Francis of Assisi, founder of our Franciscan order, I hope you will not spurn it. Also, I trust you will send me news of the progress of your campaign. I am anxious to know which captains and troops are arriving there at Pitic.
FRAY FRANCISCO GARCES
Translated from the original in Spanish Manuscripts, volume2, number 2 in the Newberry Library, Chicago, IL
San Xavier del Bac.
July 29, 1768.
TO CAPTAIN JUAN BAUTISTA DE ANZA.
I arrived at this mission on June 30, having enjoyed the hospitality of your home en route. The graciousness of your wife and family reflects your own good manners and education.
There is nothing new here. The Pimas await my command to go campaigning against the Apaches. These are primitive people, showing no sign of knowing Christian teachings - even in their own language.
The Tucson Pimas have made it known that they want no father but myself, since I have assured them that my purpose in being there is not that they work for me. They have already made me a tiny brush hut in among their own. I have visited them three times and have promised that I will live there a week or two during August, since they are just as much my children as the people here at San Xavier. They are quite pleased at this.
My two soldier escorts are doing very well here. They give the best of example to the Pimas and are very faithful in calling the people to Christian instruction.
As for myself, I am very happy here. I was warned of the hardships that awaited me, but so far these have consisted of but a few flies and mosquitoes. I am told that the Jesuit fathers found it very difficult to subsist here, even with their cattle, horses, and fields. Armed only with my royal stipend, which they had as well, I have not found it so.
I pray to God that he bring you as soon as possible to spend a little time with me at this last outpost. One of page the rooms here is known as "the captain's room." Though it reflects the poverty of Saint Francis of Assisi, founder of our Franciscan order, I hope you will not spurn it. Also, I trust you will send me news of the progress of your campaign. I am anxious to know which captains and troops are arriving there at Pitic.
FRAY FRANCISCO GARCES
Translated from the original in Spanish Manuscripts, volume2, number 2 in the Newberry Library, Chicago, IL
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hal,
Every priest was an individual, with his own abilities and faults. Some were successful and some failed miserably. Many of the Jesuits had Father Kino to prop them and their missions up. He did that by being one of the best at making his "mother mission" a provider for others.
Take care,
Joe
Oroblanco
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Hi Joe;
Yes I must have misunderstood your post, to mean "ever" when you did not mean that. I also see that all of what was posted in support of the Jesuits having had mines, including 'secret' ones they would claim belonged to the mission or their Indians, and any precious metals they produced as well as profits from farming/ranching, is just "evidence" in quotes for you. I am sure you can find any number of modern historians whom will agree and support your position.
We are planning and hoping to attend, but as with all things, one never knows until the day arrives, as happened before. I look forward to the day Beth is all done with the post office and this kind of uncertainty won't be an issue any longer, and that you will still be able to go to the rendezvous by that time. But anyway we are looking forward to seeing you, and also our other friends including those we have not yet met.
Real de Tayopa, aka la Tropical Tramp wrote
Well that steak will get freezer-burned if we wait too long, and we are sorry to hear that you will not be able to make it. I am a bit doubtful that any age number would ever stop you, however, once you set your mind on something so will keep fingers crossed that your schedule and all other issues will align so that you might just make it after all.
I would respectfully disagree but only in part, that being that Tayopa is rather a unique example rather than a common type. The mines listed by Nentvig with the various missions are apparently being viewed as the properties of the missions, and/or the Indians with the Jesuits acting as manager/caretakers "For" them. With Tayopa we have a rather different situation in that a royal Real of mines was set up, despite there being no owners other than the mission, which is not the case in any other mission with mines that I am aware of, with the possible exception of Cienega and in that case I am not 100% certain that a Real of Mines was actually established there for collection of royal tribute. Also we might note that the Indian workers of this mission were actually housed right at the mission and so close to the mines that they could literally walk to work daily, another point of variance when compared to other missions with mines. Other missions were set up AT Indian villages, and sometimes villages were moved to the missions, but not placing them in close proximity to the mines as we find with Tayopa. Perhaps because it is of such an early date, starting at least by 1604, and ended well before the expulsion of 1767 due to the relentless attacks, this explains the differences in how things were arranged and handled by officialdom?
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Hi Joe;
Yes I must have misunderstood your post, to mean "ever" when you did not mean that. I also see that all of what was posted in support of the Jesuits having had mines, including 'secret' ones they would claim belonged to the mission or their Indians, and any precious metals they produced as well as profits from farming/ranching, is just "evidence" in quotes for you. I am sure you can find any number of modern historians whom will agree and support your position.
We are planning and hoping to attend, but as with all things, one never knows until the day arrives, as happened before. I look forward to the day Beth is all done with the post office and this kind of uncertainty won't be an issue any longer, and that you will still be able to go to the rendezvous by that time. But anyway we are looking forward to seeing you, and also our other friends including those we have not yet met.
Real de Tayopa, aka la Tropical Tramp wrote
Well that steak will get freezer-burned if we wait too long, and we are sorry to hear that you will not be able to make it. I am a bit doubtful that any age number would ever stop you, however, once you set your mind on something so will keep fingers crossed that your schedule and all other issues will align so that you might just make it after all.
I would respectfully disagree but only in part, that being that Tayopa is rather a unique example rather than a common type. The mines listed by Nentvig with the various missions are apparently being viewed as the properties of the missions, and/or the Indians with the Jesuits acting as manager/caretakers "For" them. With Tayopa we have a rather different situation in that a royal Real of mines was set up, despite there being no owners other than the mission, which is not the case in any other mission with mines that I am aware of, with the possible exception of Cienega and in that case I am not 100% certain that a Real of Mines was actually established there for collection of royal tribute. Also we might note that the Indian workers of this mission were actually housed right at the mission and so close to the mines that they could literally walk to work daily, another point of variance when compared to other missions with mines. Other missions were set up AT Indian villages, and sometimes villages were moved to the missions, but not placing them in close proximity to the mines as we find with Tayopa. Perhaps because it is of such an early date, starting at least by 1604, and ended well before the expulsion of 1767 due to the relentless attacks, this explains the differences in how things were arranged and handled by officialdom?
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Roy,
I am a fan of the Jesuit treasure/mine stories. After all, for many years I was a believer. I have read most of the stories and even did a little searching. I don't have Nentvig's here at the store, but I don't think I made the same connection as you have, which I highlighted above. I will pull out his book when I get home and review the notations of mines.
If you make it to the Rendezvous, I hope you will set aside a little time to visit us in Lake Havasu. Believe you could find some interesting Little Big Horn books to keep you busy.
Take care,
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Wrmickel1,
It's true, I had my doubts about your claims of working on the archaeological dig at the battlefield. We get many claims of first hand experience here on any number of stories discussed. I take previous posts into account when deciding who to trust and who to have doubts about. When I have doubts, I ask questions.
I do believe the account written by Mr. Fox. We have only your word that "it's wrong." I think it's only common sense to look for some evidence to back up your claim. Is there some documentation to sway me towards your conclusions? I'm more than willing to spend the time looking into it. Where should I begin that search?
Thank you,
Joe Ribaudo
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