Fines...Tickets?

[bettendorfJoe]

I have never detected anywhere that I didn't either have permission or knew by reading ordinances that I could detect, so I have not been subject to a ticket or fine.


What was your fine/ticket for? And...how much was it?

Just curious....

Joe

 

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[Keppy]

I have been in this for over 40 years never knew if i needed permission or not at places i hunt....... But then the only private property i hunted was mine my family & friend's.....I never did ask to hunt any ones yard or land for i have had ones knock on my door.. And ask to hunt my land i never told them i detected i just turned them away i want no one digging on my place and i do not want to dig up some else's yard/land......... ... And i never read any ordinances or asked any official about there rules for detecting ........ AND i never got a fine or ticket ...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Un-believable that Keppy never got "fines or tickets", seeing-as-how he's detected for 40 yrs, and never looked up laws, rules, regulations, etc.... Because the way I read some skittish posts, is that "arrest and tickets are imminent" everywhere. Doh! But seriously now, he's just using common sense of avoiding obvious historic sensitive monuments

I'm as brazen as they come, and have NEVER faced a "ticket or fine" either. I suspect that if you ever did hear of someone getting a ticket or fine for md'ing, it would fall under one of the following categories:

a) someone who was night-sneaking obvious off-limits spots.

b) someone who couldn't take a warning, or was somehow being obnoxious, etc....

c) in the event there *might* be some examples of someone who was at an innocuous place, and still, for some reason, had the book thrown at him, I would say: That is an exception. A fluke. Like no different than how you'll occasionally read a story of some motorist who got "roughed up" by an over-zealous cop for nothing but a tail light out. We would look at that as exceptions, not norms. It wouldn't stop us from driving. Or thinking we need to seek permission to drive, blah blah. So too is it for md'ing:

 

[cudamark]

Almost 45 years of metal detecting now and no tickets or fines. I hunt just about everywhere I can legally. Private property with permission, parks, schools, beaches, mining areas, etc, after I've looked up the rules myself. I learned early on that asking public officials about detecting on public land is a waste of time. They don't know the rules anymore than anyone else. Sure, I've had some "scrams" and threats made to me based on their mood, feelings, or false assumptions they may have, but, if you're polite and compliant, they aren't going to go to the trouble of prosecuting you based on that. I've never seen proof that anyone else has gotten one either, under the same circumstances.

 

[BigWaveDave]

I got a speeding ticket on my way home from tectin...does that count?

 

[cudamark]

'fraid not.....you violate the law at your own risk!

 

[BigWaveDave]

Wifey doesn't know yet...don't tell her.

 

[Keppy]

Wifey doesn't know yet...don't tell her.

She will find out ..they always do.

 

[TheHunterGT]

What was your fine/ticket for? And...how much was it?
Joe

Never had one thankfully...so $0.

Many vets around here will scoff at asking public officials...and that I agree with 100%.

Why anybody would ask a public official such as a desk clerk or paper pusher is beyond me. Asking some secretary who gets paid to type letterheads and sign-ups for youth soccer league all day is the LAST person you want to go to. No mayors and elected type officials either....they do not remember 95% of the crap they put their signature on.

If you feel the need to inquire about the law....inquire to the people who enforce said law....the police officers and sheriffs. They will almost always have an answer without the need to ask somebody else for verification. Do not ask for "permission" to metal detect X area.....just ask if there are any laws regarding metal detecting in X city or X county and leave it at that.

(Drumroll)...Your best bet is to look up said laws yourself. Almost all laws are readily available online...city..county...state...federal. It's all there with some good searching....."in most cases". If a law has just been passed...you might not find it online right away. Smaller towns and counties may not update online resources as often...a pitfall to be aware of.



Where I disagree is when somebody says "I have never asked in X amount of years".....then they go on to profess why asking is so bad for the metal detecting community. Infallible logic. If you have never asked permission...why even talk about how terrible it is for everybody else? What are you basing this on? All the "what-if" scenarios?

I am guessing as many people have been thrown into jail for detecting....as there are people who inquired about the law and suddenly had a new law drawn up.

I "personally" do not subscribe to the theory that inquiring about laws will cause a domino effect of rejection and put in place sudden laws against detecting...as it has not been my life experience and is a pretty silly scenario to dream up anyways. We all have different experiences in life...and we all treat those lessons differently depending on the outcome.

Since I live in a smaller town of about 5000 people.....I do not trust the local website for up to date info. I placed a simple 3 minute call to my local police and sheriff offices. Both of them were VERY polite and told me to have a great time.....as no laws exist near me. The sheriff even gave me 2 spots to take a look at, both being homesteads from early 1900's on county land. No new magic laws popped up the next day.

Bottom line about ANY law is to be 100% sure and cover your ass. You better buy the whole Morton salt factory for all the grains of salt you need with internet advice. Including mine.

As many traffic cops have quoted to many pissed of drivers....."Ignorance of the law is not an excuse"

As many a smart person have said..."Cover your ass"

(For the record...I am not implying or singling out anybody. I am talking on a general basis from what I have read from MANY vets and newbs on this site....I love everybody!)

 

[cudamark]

Seems to me that the first step in making a law is that the subject gets brought up. I just as soon the subject of metal detecting is NEVER on anyone's desk, mind, or agenda.......ever. It only leads to restrictions or outright bans, as many big cities have found out.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

Seems to me that the first step in making a law is that the subject gets brought up. I just as soon the subject of metal detecting is NEVER on anyone's desk, mind, or agenda.......ever. It only leads to restrictions or outright bans, as many big cities have found out.

Mark, you are a wise man indeed. Love your inputs

You're right to trace back further in the evolution. Most all md'rs don't do that. Instead they focus on the "go-to" answers given : "Holes" or "cultural heritage" or "harvesting/removing", etc... But you're right: NONE OF THOSE THINGS might have even crossed their mind, if not put on their plate, in the first place.

So we need to take several steps further back in the process. And ask ourselves: "What put it up for their need-to-approve, in the first place ?"

Sure: sometimes it can just be because they drove past, saw you or I. And wondered "gee what's that guy doing?". But on the other hand, a lot of it is well-intentioned md'rs making themselves giant red-target bullseyes, asking silly questions.

 

[cudamark]

That's their job, to make, regulate, and/or interpret laws. I'd just as soon have their mind on something else when they get bored and decide to exercise their power.

 

[TheHunterGT]

Seems to me that the first step in making a law is that the subject gets brought up. I just as soon the subject of metal detecting is NEVER on anyone's desk, mind, or agenda.......ever. It only leads to restrictions or outright bans, as many big cities have found out.

Perhaps if it was brought up at the next town hall meeting. What md'er is honestly doing that? Please point them to me because I will line up right behind you and Tom to slap the crap out of them. I get what you are saying...but I can't agree that just inquiring to a cop or sheriff about whether a law exists or not will get a ball rolling in any way shape or form. It is a yes or no question that they will answer and not give a second thought about it.

"Excuse me officer....are there laws in place about metal detecting inside city limits?" ......Yes?...Ok thanks!.....No? Ok thanks! Seems pretty simple. I just cannot see him hanging up and saying "Son of a *****....I gotta call the mayor now!!!"

Laws get put into place because some fool decides to dig next to the Lincoln Memorial at 12 noon on Veterans Day....not because he calls to ask if it there was a law against it. Actions create laws...and the questions that follow those actions create laws. Metal detecting questions alone don't create new metal detecting laws.

You're right to trace back further in the evolution. Most all md'rs don't do that. Instead they focus on the "go-to" answers given : "Holes" or "cultural heritage" or "harvesting/removing", etc... But you're right: NONE OF THOSE THINGS might have even crossed their mind, if not put on their plate, in the first place.

So we need to take several steps further back in the process. And ask ourselves: "What put it up for their need-to-approve, in the first place ?"

Sure: sometimes it can just be because they drove past, saw you or I. And wondered "gee what's that guy doing?". But on the other hand, a lot of it is well-intentioned md'rs making themselves giant red-target bullseyes, asking silly questions.

Are people calling the National Institute of Archaeology and asking about metal detecting laws? That is the only place I would imagine phrases like that being tossed around. I can assure you no officer or sheriff I have ever had contact with uses wording like that to answer a yes or no question about whether a law is in place or not.

This is not about going back in time and fixing something in the DeLorean that has already been done. There are metal detecting laws in place because idiots went and dug where they were not supposed to. Common sense failures by those individuals put those laws in place. No metal detecting law was put in place because a citizen called and asked if it was legal or not. I will assume not a single one anyways....

It's like one big conspiracy theory that these new laws are going to be written because some citizen calls and asks a simple yes/no question. It's just not how it works in law making land. Metal detecting laws get placed because somebody digs in a face slapping obvious bad area.

You swayed me on the "permission" thing a few weeks back Tom...but the rest I just can't wrap my head around.

 

[lookindown]

Perhaps if it was brought up at the next town hall meeting. What md'er is honestly doing that? Please point them to me because I will line up right behind you and Tom to slap the crap out of them. I get what you are saying...but I can't agree that just inquiring to a cop or sheriff about whether a law exists or not will get a ball rolling in any way shape or form. It is a yes or no question that they will answer and not give a second thought about it.

"Excuse me officer....are there laws in place about metal detecting inside city limits?" ......Yes?...Ok thanks!.....No? Ok thanks! Seems pretty simple. I just cannot see him hanging up and saying "Son of a *****....I gotta call the mayor now!!!"

Laws get put into place because some fool decides to dig next to the Lincoln Memorial at 12 noon on Veterans Day....not because he calls to ask if it there was a law against it. Actions create laws...and the questions that follow those actions create laws. Metal detecting questions alone don't create new metal detecting laws.



Are people calling the National Institute of Archaeology and asking about metal detecting laws? That is the only place I would imagine phrases like that being tossed around. I can assure you no officer or sheriff I have ever had contact with uses wording like that to answer a yes or no question about whether a law is in place or not.

This is not about going back in time and fixing something in the DeLorean that has already been done. There are metal detecting laws in place because idiots went and dug where they were not supposed to. Common sense failures by those individuals put those laws in place. No metal detecting law was put in place because a citizen called and asked if it was legal or not. I will assume not a single one anyways....

It's like one big conspiracy theory that these new laws are going to be written because some citizen calls and asks a simple yes/no question. It's just not how it works in law making land. Metal detecting laws get placed because somebody digs in a face slapping obvious bad area.

You swayed me on the "permission" thing a few weeks back Tom...but the rest I just can't wrap my head around.

You think the average cop can give you a yes or no answer to the legalities on metal detecting?...no wonder you think there is no harm in asking...even though you could find no law against metal detecting in your city you still felt compelled to ask...what other activities do you ask the cops in your town if its legal to do or not?

 

[cudamark]

The police don't always know the law either (heck, even lawyers and judges don't, that's why they have law libraries). To illustrate this, there is a local park my buddies and I like to hunt. Old park, old coins. There is also a condo complex that wraps around 3 sides of this park. It's a public park but there are people living in those condos that think it's THEIR park. About every other time you try to detect this park, the police are called to investigate. Most of the time the officer watches us and can see we aren't doing any harm and just tells us to be safe and good luck. Sometimes they tell you to leave and come back some other time when the complainer isn't around. We've had other officers that wanted to join us! Once the police showed up and told us "you can't detect here". We've researched park ordinances and can't find anything forbidding it so....Why?, we ask politely. After almost 1/2 and hour of them talking back and forth on their radio to headquarters, they finally admitted that there wasn't anything specific about metal detecting but they had asked around headquarters and city hall and came up with "you're being a public nuisance, and if you don't leave, we'll prohibit detecting altogether". So now we hunt the place at off hours and avoid those issues for the most part. I can almost guarantee you that if we keep getting the cops called on us, they'll make a rule about detecting, and it won't be in our favor.....and it probably will effect more than this one park too! Better to keep out of sight and out of mind by not bringing the subject up to anyone in the decision making loop.

 

[lookindown]

Ive been detecting for five years and have had plenty of cops slow down or stop to see what I was doing...when they see what Im doing, they drive away...I don't worry about detecting, I just do it...Im just metal detecting for gods sake.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... You swayed me on the "permission" thing a few weeks back Tom...but the rest I just can't wrap my head around.

Ah shucks, you mean you only got "half converted" ? haha Nah, all your questions are good ones, and a challenge to a topic is always good to make one think

Perhaps if it was brought up at the next town hall meeting. What md'er is honestly doing that?....

No, that's not exactly the mental image of the concept (although I suppose that too could happen). the image of "pressing question" is where someone asks a city official (cop, park dept, city hall front desk, or ... whomever, via email, or in person, or calling, etc....). And then you can get a "no" (maybe) where it had never ever been a problem before. Ok hunter, you tell me: Does that "no" constitute a "rule" or "law" now ? Or put it this way: Does that "no" mean you can't detect? OF COURSE IT DOES (why else would you have asked, if you didn't need a yes or no answer?). Naturally you can debate them, and try to persuade them differently, I suppose.

So while that "no" might not make it to an actual printed rule at a city council meeting, yet .... it might as well be the same as a rule like that. Because a) it now precludes you , if you intend to keep-in-the-following of their answer, and b) guess what will happen when that same cop or city clerk sees ANOTHER md'r out in the field ? He'll remember the earlier inquiry, and subconscsiously think "aha, there's one of THEM" and start booting others. I've seen that happen before Hunter, and several places. Ie.: never a problem in the past UNTIL someone goes and asks.

..... It is a yes or no question that they will answer and not give a second thought about it...... .

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. A cop, for example, might say "you need to ask the park's dept that question". So you call the park's dept. The clerk says "hhmmm, I dunno, let me as the department supervisor", etc..... So as much as you think it's a cut & dried yes or no, based on actual rule/law (rather than whim and feeling), it's not that simple.

........ Are people calling the National Institute of Archaeology and asking about metal detecting laws? That is the only place I would imagine phrases like that being tossed around..... .

1) perhaps they're not so silly as to "call a purist archie with this pressing question". Sure. But if there ever is a case where "cultural heritage" concerns were the "go to" reason for a law or rule, then.... pray-tell ... where do you think such buzz-words come from ? ARCHIE CONCERNS. So at SOME POINT (whether or not it was the md'r himself waltzing here there direct to the archie or not), it *could* end up on their desk, as one of the various departments to "sign off" on a question or issue. And we all know what they will say.

2) who said it was just archie concerns? The much bigger issue/reason for no's, at city and county level ho-hum parks, is rarely EVER archies concerns, to begin with. It's almost always damage, alter , dig, and deface type turf concerns. A few times it could be "harvest, collect, take" issues. So really then, the issue of archies is pretty much relegated to state and fed. level stuff.

.... There are metal detecting laws in place because idiots went and dug where they were not supposed to. ....

Woah, slow down here. Did you see the contradiction in what you just wrote ? Think about it hunter. If they "just dug where they weren't supposed to", then am I to infer from that that there was a law saying "no metal detecting"? Otherwise, how is it that "they weren't supposed to" ? And if there was, then .... why write more laws, for something that was already forbidden ?

Now if by that you meant that perhaps a specific law wasn't in place , but later one that MADE it specific, yes I can understand that. And to that I would say that if persons went in asking ahead of time "Can I metal detect", it doesn't solve that in any way. Because, think of it hunter: If it were true that some place *might* get their panties in a wad , because they think you'll harm the grass, then .... guess what their answer would have been, had you asked ahead of time ? It would have been "no". So what has been gained by asking ? If the place were "not supposed to" as your premise has it, then ... well gee, you're "not supposed to". Adding a specific law will have made it no more of a "no", than it already was.

 

[TheHunterGT]

You think the average cop can give you a yes or no answer to the legalities on metal detecting?...no wonder you think there is no harm in asking...even though you could find no law against metal detecting in your city you still felt compelled to ask...what other activities do you ask the cops in your town if its legal to do or not?

Both the sheriff and PD answered me immediately without hesitation. I will assume they are of the "average" sort. The Sheriff even gave me 2 spots to check out. So yes...it is "no wonder" I felt there was no harm in asking. I don't live a life of paranoia over a simple rejection. I got something positive out of it - proving to "me" that I have nothing to fear in my area.

My other activities do not involve digging holes in the ground in what some idiot could consider "defacing public property" or whatever wording they want call it. You all admit there is a stigma and stereotype already placed above md'ers heads by the stories of "strange stares" and "piss off" requests you vets share. Yet you scoff at the idea of a new player covering their butt and being sure. It boggles my mind.

The police don't always know the law either (heck, even lawyers and judges don't, that's why they have law libraries). To illustrate this, there is a local park my buddies and I like to hunt. Old park, old coins. There is also a condo complex that wraps around 3 sides of this park. It's a public park but there are people living in those condos that think it's THEIR park. About every other time you try to detect this park, the police are called to investigate. Most of the time the officer watches us and can see we aren't doing any harm and just tells us to be safe and good luck. Sometimes they tell you to leave and come back some other time when the complainer isn't around. We've had other officers that wanted to join us! Once the police showed up and told us "you can't detect here". We've researched park ordinances and can't find anything forbidding it so....Why?, we ask politely. After almost 1/2 and hour of them talking back and forth on their radio to headquarters, they finally admitted that there wasn't anything specific about metal detecting but they had asked around headquarters and city hall and came up with "you're being a public nuisance, and if you don't leave, we'll prohibit detecting altogether". So now we hunt the place at off hours and avoid those issues for the most part. I can almost guarantee you that if we keep getting the cops called on us, they'll make a rule about detecting, and it won't be in our favor.....and it probably will effect more than this one park too! Better to keep out of sight and out of mind by not bringing the subject up to anyone in the decision making loop.

Nobody knows 100% of everything. No denying that. However, I think somebody who does a certain job for a living has a higher general knowledge than most would give credit for. I see your point Cudamark. I too agree that it would benefit everybody if it just stayed off their minds 100%. But that is seemingly impossible as your story (and many others) notes.

You were told to move along with there being no law...no questions asked. Just some paranoid type who thought you were up to no good. The very stigma and stereotype many other have noted here at TN. Is it a silly stereotype md'ers are up to no good? Absolutely. But there it is.

I'd like to play a silly scenario here. Anybody tackle these questions here please.

1. "What if" there was a law and you were violating it without realizing it? Let us say that you tried to look it up and found nothing...as the city had not updated their website yet. Would you expect the police to do you a solid and ask you to move along....or should they say too bad so sad, here is your ticket for digging?

2. If it is the latter and you got a ticket or fine or whatever....would it change your mind on inquiring? Would your advice towards other change a bit?

That is where I am suspicious. The invisible law that is going to bite me in the ass and some "I'm having a bad day cop" chooses me as his perk up. Who is to say that a law is not already in place due to those "stares" and "you can't be here" protests? If there were no laws anywhere about md'ing we would not be having this conversation in the first place. Being compliant to the law would mean understanding the laws in place.

How can somebody seriously take advice to "just do it....you will be alright" after stories like that? You guys are like Vietnam vets talking about guts spilling and bullets flying by....then shrugging and saying "no big deal". Terrible analogy but you get my drift.

Tom....I'll tackle that in the morning lol. Interesting and something for me to ponder as always.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Both the sheriff and PD answered me immediately without hesitation......So yes...it is "no wonder" I felt there was no harm in asking........

What if they'd told you "no", and you later found out that a) there was no rule truly specifically saying that and b) you found out that others routinely detect there, ad-nauseum, and never had any issues or problems, and routinly find $20 gold pieces. Ok, would you have something to "fear" or be "paranoid" of after that ?

.....My other activities do not involve digging holes in the ground in what some idiot could consider "defacing public property" or whatever wording they want call it. You all admit there is a stigma and stereotype already placed above md'ers heads by the stories of "strange stares" and "piss off" requests you vets share. .......

Correct. we "dig holes" and yes it has a "connotation" and "draws stares from lookie lous". And you think that going down to city hall or police station "solves that" ? No, it doesn't. Your best bet is to avoid "Joe lookie-lou busy body" and go at such-a-time as not-to-offend him/her. Just like nose-picking: timing is sometimes everything, in the act of discretion so-as-not to offend sensitive souls.

........ "What if" there was a law and you were violating it without realizing it? Let us say that you tried to look it up and found nothing...as the city had not updated their website yet. Would you expect the police to do you a solid and ask you to move along....or should they say too bad so sad, here is your ticket for digging? .....

Hunter, do you have an example of such a thing happening ? A law that was "on the books" but ... for some reason .... didn't happen to be where anyone "doing due diligence" couldn't find on their own ? Hence they were fined and ticketed ? If you have an example, I would love to hear it.

.......... If it is the latter and you got a ticket or fine or whatever....would it change your mind on inquiring? Would your advice towards other change a bit? .....

On the off-chance that someone got a "ticket or fine" for detecting a place where the rule couldn't-have-been-looked up, I would say .... No. It still wouldn't "change my mind". For 2 reasons:

1) that I would look at such things as exceptions and flukes, not norms.
2) that I would still consider the ALTERNATIVE RISK of getting whimsical arbitrary "no's" to be a greater risk. Mind you: it's not just the "no" they gave "just you", but the mentality of now.... it's subconsciously something they're thinking about as a "no" activity, from then on out.

..... Who is to say that a law is not already in place due to those "stares" and "you can't be here" protests?....

Then if that's the case, then those "in place laws" can be looked up.

 

[TheHunterGT]

What if they'd told you "no", and you later found out that a) there was no rule truly specifically saying that and b) you found out that others routinely detect there, ad-nauseum, and never had any issues or problems, and routinly find $20 gold pieces. Ok, would you have something to "fear" or be "paranoid" of after that ?

But they did not tell me no. They told me yes. No "what if" scenario needed here. If I did get a "no" and found out there were no laws...I would go detect and record my activity like I always do. Written law trumps an incorrect officers answer anyday.

Correct. we "dig holes" and yes it has a "connotation" and "draws stares from lookie lous". And you think that going down to city hall or police station "solves that" ? No, it doesn't. Your best bet is to avoid "Joe lookie-lou busy body" and go at such-a-time as not-to-offend him/her. Just like nose-picking: timing is sometimes everything, in the act of discretion so-as-not to offend sensitive souls.

Lookingdown asked me a sarcastic question with little substance other than to make me seem inferior....I answered it at face value. He did not mention anything about solving the issue at hand. Do I think it solves anything....no.....but it is not my intent to "solve" anything when I ask a question. I am looking for an answer...not solving the md'ers of the worlds problems. To reply to your remark...no, I will not bow down to somebody because they don't like me or what I am doing. They can piss right off. If no law states I cannot be there....there I shall be. Stare and confront me all you like. As long as I am allowed...so be it. If it boils down to it....I will be there for my "city hall" meeting to explain why metal detecting is a harmless activity if it comes to that.

Hunter, do you have an example of such a thing happening ? A law that was "on the books" but ... for some reason .... didn't happen to be where anyone "doing due diligence" couldn't find on their own ? Hence they were fined and ticketed ? If you have an example, I would love to hear it.

Do you have an example for all your "what ifs"? I'll take links now since it seems my credibility is our new topic. I don't think it is fair that you skirted my "what if" question yet place multiple "what ifs" in many of your responses to me. Where are all your examples? Show me all the laws that popped up because all somebody did was ask about a law in place.

On the off-chance that someone got a "ticket or fine" for detecting a place where the rule couldn't-have-been-looked up, I would say .... No. It still wouldn't "change my mind". For 2 reasons:

1) that I would look at such things as exceptions and flukes, not norms.
2) that I would still consider the ALTERNATIVE RISK of getting whimsical arbitrary "no's" to be a greater risk. Mind you: it's not just the "no" they gave "just you", but the mentality of now.... it's subconsciously something they're thinking about as a "no" activity, from then on out.

Well I look at new laws being suddenly drawn up over a simple question as flukes. I see no concrete proof of that ever happening other than some "what if" story. Show me links of laws written due to questioning alone and I will never make another post about this subject.....ever. Whimsical and arbitray no's interest me very little. If they tell me no I will ask for the statute so I can read it myself. Whimsical and "yes" answers do interest me as I can take a name and number for reference. Cop approaches me I can easily say "Hold up...I called to make sure and was told by X that it was ok. Call your supervisor please". Do I want to go there? No...but if need be I will stand up to bullies. Cops or not.

Then if that's the case, then those "in place laws" can be looked up.

As others have said in the other thread....some smaller or behind the times cities do not update their laws regularly online. If you go to a "desk" to ask to look up laws you can spend HOURS flipping through the laws looking for what you seek. I simply will not waste my time doing that when I can call and ask. I don't have the fear or belief that some new law will roll into effect due to all the whispers that will occur.

The "what ifs" and scenarios make for great banter....but show little to prove that new laws get placed for such a simple inquiry. They are simply "it could happen so you better not".....well no thanks to that.

You say that you would not change your mind if you were ticketed. Well that is bonkers logic for me. It's like taking marriage longevity advice from a 5 time divorcee. Can't do it.

"It was a fluke...go ahead and keep doing it like this" Hell naw bro.