Fines...Tickets?

[bettendorfJoe]

I have never detected anywhere that I didn't either have permission or knew by reading ordinances that I could detect, so I have not been subject to a ticket or fine.


What was your fine/ticket for? And...how much was it?

Just curious....

Joe

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

Then why send out the memo, if it were already restricted then? Clearly this memo was a B.O.L. type letter sent out. (or perhaps a "determination" letter, eh?) Why ? If the rank & file were ALREADY "diligent to usher people on" d/t previously existing cultural heritage stuff, then ... NO NEED TO SEND THE MEMO OUT. So it stands to reason this memo only served to handicap us. Not "allow" us. And going back to the introductory section, what precipitated all that Nugs ?



Ah, then weren't you and I BETTER OFF before that reminder ?

Like I said the memo could be benefitting us by restricting the Rangers.

I'm going with the version where Rangers were booting detectorists that had a right to be there, who then called the main office and complained about those Rangers. The solution was to inform those Rangers BY MEMO, that metal detecting is indeed permitted and where.

Totally a win for us, and keeping those Rangers in check...

Without the memo... without the name of the organization where it originated we can come to ANY conclusion from the fragments of info you offered.

You are grasping at straws just like last time... perhaps that's why you won't produce anything other than an opinion.

This grew old a long time ago I just wanted to poke the holes in your story nobody else had. It's an endless battle just like the last time... even with undisputable proof you were 100% incorrect the most you offered up was that... you chose a poor example.

You still tried to shift it to permission, I think you are obsessed with debating permission.

It's a part of life... if I go target shooting I find out if there are restrictions. If I go four wheeling I find out if there are restrictions. If I go fishing I find out if there are restrictions. If I go prospecting I find out if there are restrictions.

The Government isn't out to get me, the sky isn't falling and nobody even cares. Careless digging gets a place pulled not responsible people careful enough to call and ask. It's just foolish nonsense to argue about.

MOVE! That's my answer... if a simple call can cause such a disaster and create a plethora of new restrictions... what's that tell ya about your local Government? Here's a hint... it's not called the land of "fruits and nuts" because of all the farms!

Just look at the drought that everybody warned them about when they were tearing out all those dams to save the frogs and fish... Global Warming is the cause... not the removal of the dams and lakes they created...

Look at the moratorium on dredging that turned out to be an unofficial outright ban, all based on lies, false science and misinformation.

Move Tom move... before it's illegal!!!

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

http://boards.answers.findlaw.com/index.php/topic/152989-metal-detecting-in-a-public-park/

FindLaw Answers

Metal detecting in a Public Park. Started by patmmr , Mar 09 2010 09:21 AM

I'm 63 years old and have been metal detecting for about 30 years.(coin hunting) When I go into a park I leave it the same way as I found it. I detect a coin dig a small plug retrieve the coin and put the plug back into the ground. I live in South Florida. About 20 years ago I was thrown out of a state park with my detector, so I called the Governors office and asked for permission to detect in state parks. They told me as long as I don't disturb any precious plants or remove any gems from the ground I can metal detect all I want and sent me a letter signed from the Governors office.

About 4 years ago I was in a public park her in Dania Florida and one of the city workers called the sheriffs office , when the Sheriff came to told me to leave the park or he would arrest me for destruction of public property, while he was saying all this he went into a stance with his hand on his gun, so I left and went down to the city hall and looked up the bi laws of the park. There was nothing in there that said you can't metal detect in the park. So I went to the sheriffs dept. and talked to the chief. he said he got orders from the city attorney to arest me if I went back into the park with my detector. I then called the city attorny and asked him why I couldn't go back into the park. His answer was because I said so and then he hung the phone up. So I called the fort lauderdale sheriffs dept and talked to the comander , he laughed and said take your detector and go back into the park and enjoy yourself. But at the fear of getting arrested I never did.Isn't this somehow a volation of my rights, I mean I see young women sittin there with small children digging holes much deeper than I could ever with a small plug. The city of Dania has get togethers and they pound holes into the ground by putting up tents, etc etc. Is there any way I can take city hall on by myself. How can they just make these laws up as they do. I live here and pay tax for over 27 years isn't this park there for me to enjoy also. Any advise would be helpfull. Should I go to the civel liberty union. Thank you very much for your time. ####.com

 

[Keppy]

Metal detecting in a Public Park. - Crimes Defined - FindLaw Answers

FindLaw Answers

Metal detecting in a Public Park. Started by patmmr , Mar 09 2010 09:21 AM

I'm 63 years old and have been metal detecting for about 30 years.(coin hunting) When I go into a park I leave it the same way as I found it. I detect a coin dig a small plug retrieve the coin and put the plug back into the ground. I live in South Florida. About 20 years ago I was thrown out of a state park with my detector, so I called the Governors office and asked for permission to detect in state parks. They told me as long as I don't disturb any precious plants or remove any gems from the ground I can metal detect all I want and sent me a letter signed from the Governors office.

About 4 years ago I was in a public park her in Dania Florida and one of the city workers called the sheriffs office , when the Sheriff came to told me to leave the park or he would arrest me for destruction of public property, while he was saying all this he went into a stance with his hand on his gun, so I left and went down to the city hall and looked up the bi laws of the park. There was nothing in there that said you can't metal detect in the park. So I went to the sheriffs dept. and talked to the chief. he said he got orders from the city attorney to arest me if I went back into the park with my detector. I then called the city attorny and asked him why I couldn't go back into the park. His answer was because I said so and then he hung the phone up. So I called the fort lauderdale sheriffs dept and talked to the comander , he laughed and said take your detector and go back into the park and enjoy yourself. But at the fear of getting arrested I never did.Isn't this somehow a volation of my rights, I mean I see young women sittin there with small children digging holes much deeper than I could ever with a small plug. The city of Dania has get togethers and they pound holes into the ground by putting up tents, etc etc. Is there any way I can take city hall on by myself. How can they just make these laws up as they do. I live here and pay tax for over 27 years isn't this park there for me to enjoy also. Any advise would be helpfull. Should I go to the civel liberty union. Thank you very much for your time. ####.com

I do not under stand why he went through all that when all he had to do was show them the letter he got from the Governor's Office ..

 

[TheHunterGT]

I do not under stand why he went through all that when all he had to do was show them the letter he got from the Governor's Office ..

I doubt he has kept a 16 year old letter....I also doubt it would have done any good 16 years later as a new Governor is in charge making the original letter void and null.

That being said Keppy...you have a valid observation. I was waiting for the letter to come into play as well. Seems odd to include it in the first paragraph and then omit it from the 2nd.

My humourous take is this....screw calling the police and sheriff. I have been doing it wrong. I need to nip it in the bud and call the Governor and get me a letter.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hunter and Nugs, you guys are top dogs in my book. You are articulated, and give good write-ups for your position. I love a challenge to my thinking, so I thank you for being good sports and talking about the topic.

But I'm gonna respect TH'rs need to keep things from getting too drawn out. And not trying to answer the recent additions to the thread. Just gonna say they are good food for thought.

The only other thing I want to say nugs, is that the state I found the example on (the introduction paragraph to the dire edicts that followed) was the state of Utah. I'd have to look for it, to see if I still have it in jpg. form (the actual letterhead, etc... so no one can say it's not exactly as I'm saying, or that I "must've misintrepreted", etc...). But at the risk of this turning too long, and turning to a rabbit trail on *JUST* that one state, or *JUST* why that evolved, etc..., I will abstain in the interest of peace

I'm out to go detecting now

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Just remember... you're prospecting for gold... not coin shooting... no protection for hobbyists but prospectors are covered under the mining laws and Mineral Estate Grant.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Just remember... you're prospecting for gold... not coin shooting... no protection for hobbyists but prospectors are covered under the mining laws and Mineral Estate Grant.

I'm mining for lost jewelry...[emoji106]

 

[Msbeepbeep]

Now you tell me!
I could have used the "I was prospecting/mining" defense a couple of years ago when I was told that I could detect but it was illegal to dig & remove anything from city property...as I watched people clam digging and a kid & his dog digging shells, just behind the informing officer.

Prospecting/mining! Perfect!
Or maybe I should have said I'm digging for clams.
I have actually located a clam with the detector but I'm not sure why.
Detecting sure gets interesting.

 

[LM]

Tom is the MD Forum equivalent of a Tax Protester idealogue. He's constantly on some quixotic mission to blather his own philosophy about how things ought to be even though he's wrong. He argues entirely from the realm of theory, strenuously presents his 'notions' at every turn yet if you listen to him, you could get in hot water and the judge doesn't accept ".. well Tom_In_CA on Treasurenet said..." as a mitigating factor.

This is the guy who suggested that its OK to just head over to Turkey and go metal detecting, in spite of all indicators (and anecdotes) from persons experienced with the region saying otherwise.

Understanding how laws work isn't particularly 'hard' but unfortunately, our laws have gotten way beyond what a normal man can expect to keep up with and its entirely possible that in your municipality, the activity is regulated. In some places, its tightly regulated. In my town in Florida, detect certain places and you will be arrested. Not 'warned' or 'fined'. Cuffs. If Tom_In_CA came here and brought his detector onto public grounds, he too would be put in handcuffs and his big theories would get him just as much traction as asserting to the judge that you have no obligation to pay income tax, pursuant to the internet-theories of naive blowhards. That is to say, a chuckle before he levies sentence.

Metal Detecting is pretty low risk, even lower risk yet if you take the time to understand the laws. Still, Tom's incessant posting of his unique brand of terrible advice is obnoxious and dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Take Tom's advice, ask Tom if he's so confident in what he's saying that he will pledge to fully underwrite bond and the legal bills of anyone who follows it. He will talk a lot and theorize a lot, but talk is cheap.

 

[T.C.]

Tom is entitled to his opinion and name calling is not giving your opinion much credibility.....

Tom is the MD Forum equivalent of a Tax Protester idealogue. He's constantly on some quixotic mission to blather his own philosophy about how things ought to be even though he's wrong. He argues entirely from the realm of theory, strenuously presents his 'notions' at every turn yet if you listen to him, you could get in hot water and the judge doesn't accept ".. well Tom_In_CA on Treasurenet said..." as a mitigating factor.

This is the guy who suggested that its OK to just head over to Turkey and go metal detecting, in spite of all indicators (and anecdotes) from persons experienced with the region saying otherwise.

Understanding how laws work isn't particularly 'hard' but unfortunately, our laws have gotten way beyond what a normal man can expect to keep up with and its entirely possible that in your municipality, the activity is regulated. In some places, its tightly regulated. In my town in Florida, detect certain places and you will be arrested. Not 'warned' or 'fined'. Cuffs. If Tom_In_CA came here and brought his detector onto public grounds, he too would be put in handcuffs and his big theories would get him just as much traction as asserting to the judge that you have no obligation to pay income tax, pursuant to the internet-theories of naive blowhards. That is to say, a chuckle before he levies sentence.

Metal Detecting is pretty low risk, even lower risk yet if you take the time to understand the laws. Still, Tom's incessant posting of his unique brand of terrible advice is obnoxious and dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Take Tom's advice, ask Tom if he's so confident in what he's saying that he will pledge to fully underwrite bond and the legal bills of anyone who follows it. He will talk a lot and theorize a lot, but talk is cheap.

 

[kayakpat]

I would bet that the places that enacted restrictions on MDing did so because of people showing up and detecting and being seen, and NOT because someone asked permission if the could detect.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Now you tell me!
I could have used the "I was prospecting/mining" defense a couple of years ago when I was told that I could detect but it was illegal to dig & remove anything from city property...as I watched people clam digging and a kid & his dog digging shells, just behind the informing officer.

Prospecting/mining! Perfect!
Or maybe I should have said I'm digging for clams.
I have actually located a clam with the detector but I'm not sure why.
Detecting sure gets interesting.

Sorry Msbeepbeep the prospecting card typically can only be played West of the Mississippi in areas open to mineral entry. There are a few exceptions in the East but typically only in gold bearing areas.

Digging is prohibited on City Property in my town, however the statute is aimed towards construction. It's possible they were citing a similar statute in your situation, if I were you I would look up the legal code and see if it applies to minimal disturbance.

Here is a thread I posted on National Forests, there is some very useful information that may apply to other situations http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t.../448213-metal-detecting-national-forests.html

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom is the MD Forum equivalent of a Tax Protester idealogue. He's constantly on some quixotic mission to blather his own philosophy about how things ought to be even though he's wrong. He argues entirely from the realm of theory, strenuously presents his 'notions' at every turn yet if you listen to him, you could get in hot water and the judge doesn't accept ".. well Tom_In_CA on Treasurenet said..." as a mitigating factor.

This is the guy who suggested that its OK to just head over to Turkey and go metal detecting, in spite of all indicators (and anecdotes) from persons experienced with the region saying otherwise.

Understanding how laws work isn't particularly 'hard' but unfortunately, our laws have gotten way beyond what a normal man can expect to keep up with and its entirely possible that in your municipality, the activity is regulated. In some places, its tightly regulated. In my town in Florida, detect certain places and you will be arrested. Not 'warned' or 'fined'. Cuffs. If Tom_In_CA came here and brought his detector onto public grounds, he too would be put in handcuffs and his big theories would get him just as much traction as asserting to the judge that you have no obligation to pay income tax, pursuant to the internet-theories of naive blowhards. That is to say, a chuckle before he levies sentence.

Metal Detecting is pretty low risk, even lower risk yet if you take the time to understand the laws. Still, Tom's incessant posting of his unique brand of terrible advice is obnoxious and dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Take Tom's advice, ask Tom if he's so confident in what he's saying that he will pledge to fully underwrite bond and the legal bills of anyone who follows it. He will talk a lot and theorize a lot, but talk is cheap.

Loved your post LM. It didn't do anything to dispute the logic of anything that I've said. It appeared to be mostly name -calling , and lumping into characterizations. But .... it was a good read

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I would bet that the places that enacted restrictions on MDing did so because of people showing up and detecting and being seen, and NOT because someone asked permission if the could detect.

Then if "showing up and detecting a place" was that objectionable that someone therefore "made a restriction/law", then.... what's been lost ? I mean, if by this sentence it implies that "therefore those persons shouldn't have detected there", then ....... how is it any more-so a "no-no" now ? Either way, you "shouldn't detect there" in the case you describe. So how is something anymore worse-off now ? Because by the implied logic, you/they shouldn't have detected there. So I don't get it.

And lest you think that some "no detecting" rules haven't come about by md'rs asking (hence making their pressing question that pencil pushers need-to-address), I can give you thread links and stories of exactly that psychology happening.

 

[cudamark]

Tom is the MD Forum equivalent of a Tax Protester idealogue. He's constantly on some quixotic mission to blather his own philosophy about how things ought to be even though he's wrong. He argues entirely from the realm of theory, strenuously presents his 'notions' at every turn yet if you listen to him, you could get in hot water and the judge doesn't accept ".. well Tom_In_CA on Treasurenet said..." as a mitigating factor.

This is the guy who suggested that its OK to just head over to Turkey and go metal detecting, in spite of all indicators (and anecdotes) from persons experienced with the region saying otherwise.

Understanding how laws work isn't particularly 'hard' but unfortunately, our laws have gotten way beyond what a normal man can expect to keep up with and its entirely possible that in your municipality, the activity is regulated. In some places, its tightly regulated. In my town in Florida, detect certain places and you will be arrested. Not 'warned' or 'fined'. Cuffs. If Tom_In_CA came here and brought his detector onto public grounds, he too would be put in handcuffs and his big theories would get him just as much traction as asserting to the judge that you have no obligation to pay income tax, pursuant to the internet-theories of naive blowhards. That is to say, a chuckle before he levies sentence.

Metal Detecting is pretty low risk, even lower risk yet if you take the time to understand the laws. Still, Tom's incessant posting of his unique brand of terrible advice is obnoxious and dangerous. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Take Tom's advice, ask Tom if he's so confident in what he's saying that he will pledge to fully underwrite bond and the legal bills of anyone who follows it. He will talk a lot and theorize a lot, but talk is cheap.

The name calling is totally uncalled for. When laws are vague, you're going to get all sorts of opinions on how they will apply to whatever you plan to do. Even playing ball in some parks is illegal, but, getting arrested for it is virtually unheard of unless you've been previously warned. In the case of your off-limits parks, I'm sure the rules are posted somewhere so people will know what the law is. Nobody is advocating to ignore them and detect anyway. It's the ambiguous rules that are at issue here. In these cases, it's incredibly unlikely a LEO is going to ticket or arrest anyone for metal detecting. He's just not going to go to that trouble and risk false arrest charges for something a simple "scram" will cure. Now if you persist and argue and become a general PITA, then you get what you deserve. But that applies to any encounter you'll have with law enforcement, for any reason.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

LM, please post by our rules, name calling violates our rules. I usually don't edit I delete......

 

[LM]

Loved your post LM. It didn't do anything to dispute the logic of anything that I've said. It appeared to be mostly name -calling , and lumping into characterizations. But .... it was a good read

That's because you haven't presented any 'logic'. You are playing eLawyer even though you very clearly don't understand how laws work in practice.

Again, I repeat this simple proposal: If you are confident enough in everything you say, then put your money where your mouth is and pledge that anyone who follows your advice is fully underwritten for all legal expenses, by you personally, for any trouble they may encounter following your advice. If your opinions are credible, this should be a zero risk proposition for you, but we both know that you won't be forthcoming with any skin in the game to back up your 'theories' any time soon.

There is a reason you will talk and talk and talk and blather and foam and wax, but you won't agree to that.
Your eLawyering is garbage and potentially dangerous.

 

[cudamark]

You are many times more likely to get a ticket driving down to the park than actually hunting it, but we do it anyway. Nobody is saying the risk is zero. What we are saying is that the risk is so small as to be insignificant in a park with no specific rules against metal detecting. In areas where there are posted rules (be it at the site or the county court house) and you choose to ignore them, then yeah, you're possibly going to have a problem. Even then, I seriously doubt that a tourist detecting a restricted park is going to get arrested because they didn't first file for a license or because they didn't realize it was forbidden in that particular area. If you have documented cases of that, please share them with us. I'm sure there is a fluke case there somewhere to keep the "fear of definite arrest" myth going.

 

[Opie]

City Codes and Federal and State Laws are different things, "Codes" can be overturned with written permission from the embodiment over-seeing the codes. Federal law is law not to be altered in its Course, Sentence or Restriction and State law is law that can be made more restrictive but never less restrictive than the same or similar Federal law. Artifacts are "ANY" items recovered from any place any location. Descriptive title, IE "Historic" Artifacts, "Metal" Artifacts, "Man" made artifacts. Is the defining definition of what the artifact is. Terms like disturbance, dig, removal, find, all typically have the same legal definition. How do you get around digging at a City park? Its a City Code that restricts it, (not a law) so that City can give you special Written permission to supersede the code. Why? do City Codes and State, Federal laws get written to stop Metal detecting? Those midnight mder's in historic sites, the trespassers, the plugs left out, the two foot hole some one dug that hit the sewer line.
This topic gets debated over and over, and never gets the right light placed on it. (Just get written permission and save the sport)

 

[Skippy SH13]

Yes. And perhaps they'd even tell him "go ahead". Or how about this solution: Just go, since it's OBVIOUS that this doesn't apply to md'rs (unless they're asking silly questions). I mean, if other md'rs go there with no problems whatsoever, then was this step even necessary, to begin with ? Do YOU call ahead to utility co's before YOU dig? Really ? You mean that someone who gets a "no" from city hall, can promptly go out and detect anyhow ? I don't get it. Why have asked then ?

Sorry to get back to this so late. The MDer in this example went in looking for ordinances that were restrictions. I personally don't go into City Hall and ask. I personally check with law enforcement, and read the ordinances myself. I don't bother asking some desk jockey at city hall, simply because the exact scenario can come up. The law is there for a reason, and asking people for their "opinion" on what to do can create legal entanglements that I don't wish to deal with.. And do I call the utility companies before I dig? For city parks, no. But that's because our city ordinances specify 8" is the max for MDers (they're specific), because they don't want folks hitting anything. we're good to go to that point. As for personal land, if I was going to dig more than that, you'd better believe I'd call first and get the utilities spray painted. Any hole over 12" around here and you're up a creek if you hit a utility line, sewer pipe, etc. To avoid this, I don't dig areas deeper than 12".

To be clear, we're also not talking about ME... It was the example. I'm fortunate enough to live in a city (and group of cities) that have very well thought out MDing policies in place.

-Skippy