Historian Says New Smyrna Is States Oldest City

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

" The French may have hidden them at Fort Caroline"

Hidden treasure at Fort Caroline.. The French really had nothing there to begin with:
According to the archives, and research notes: " French and Spanish " nothing was left there. Even NPS found no evidence buried treasure: and very little recovery coin's " silver, gold, copper was found there. But research notes: stated alot of
supply's where move north around Batten Island, Little talbot Islands; there where 3 small French settlement site's:
maybe there?

 

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[Sorroque]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City


And Pedro Menendez had a nephew, his name was Jose Menendez. "Jose Menendez'es ship sunk off of Playalinda beach". This is another reason that metal detectors are not allowed in the park, 1/3rd of that treasure made it's way to shore and was stored there.
What happened to this treasure? Was it collected by the Governor? Is it still there?!
A ship named , "San Nicolas", is sunk off that beach too,"no teasure found on it".
We need to metal detect this zone, not as vandals , but as a treasure hunter.
Colcaine Island 1562 West Indies. French used to ambush the Spanish Treasure ships there. Maybe they put money ashore there too? I dunno.
Ghost town "Nuremburg", maybe explains the Norweigen presence of artifacts on Canaberal de Ais.
Soccorro, and , Noccoro were most likely the whitemans attempt to civilise himself with the Surruque village there, marked by 3 t-pees on old maps.One such map is in a book wrapped in white paper and stored in the Florida Historical Society's safe, under lock and key.
No, I definitely read that a large structure made of stone was found near Smyrna and the surruque village. Hasn't anyone heard of a Fort Sorroquez that house 2,000 Spanish Soilders in 1689!? This fort was searched for by archaeologist December 1st., 1941, and was never located. What were they onto!? They must of scratched up a lead from somewhere. Join this quest.

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Location of Matanzas Inlet

Many scholars have debated the exact location of the slaughter of the French. Over the years, heavy storms have been known to open new inlets and close existing ones. It is well documented that an inlet called El Penon was located a few miles south of the present Matanzas Inlet at the time of the massacre. Spanish maps drawn at about this time name this southern inlet "Little Inlet", "Little Matanzas Inlet", "Ribault's Inlet", as well as "El Penon Inlet".

With nearly 250 people having been killed, it would seem that something would have been found over the years that would give clues to the exact location of the site. However, no such archaeological evidence has ever been found.
ADDENDUM!! I found an old Spanish Map showing THREE Inlets!!! And yes, El Penon IS Marineland!


The National Park Service does have a copy of a deposition given by a man who, as a boy, played in the area. According to him, after the hurricane of 1893, the beach was washed away, exposing a large number of human bones. The writer of the deposition suggested that these were the bones of the French soldiers killed by Pedro Menendez in 1565. However, other people conjecture that these bones, if actually seen, were more likely from burial grounds of Native Americans who had lived in the area for many centuries.

Also the 'fort' was nothing more than a wooden watch tower fenced in. It wasn't until 175 years later the present day coquina fort was built. Also these watch towers were numerous, and they were on the coast line not inland on a barrier island(at first). It is possible that El Penon was Marineland, not Summerhaven. It is also possible an inlet was open there preventing the French from continuing. Marineland is in fact a mile plus south of the current Matanza Inlet. Time to MD...

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Find the Fleet Manifests, and go threw them: total of 7 ships, 4 ships was property of the King.
two out of the King's fleet, was carrying some kind of treasure: Due to lack of NPS Funding, The whole Matanzas area
wasn't search very well..

 

[Diver_Down]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Location of Matanzas Inlet

Many scholars have debated the exact location of the slaughter of the French. Over the years, heavy storms have been known to open new inlets and close existing ones. It is well documented that an inlet called El Penon was located a few miles south of the present Matanzas Inlet at the time of the massacre. Spanish maps drawn at about this time name this southern inlet "Little Inlet", "Little Matanzas Inlet", "Ribault's Inlet", as well as "El Penon Inlet".

With nearly 250 people having been killed, it would seem that something would have been found over the years that would give clues to the exact location of the site. However, no such archaeological evidence has ever been found.
ADDENDUM!! I found an old Spanish Map showing THREE Inlets!!! And yes, El Penon IS Marineland!


The National Park Service does have a copy of a deposition given by a man who, as a boy, played in the area. According to him, after the hurricane of 1893, the beach was washed away, exposing a large number of human bones. The writer of the deposition suggested that these were the bones of the French soldiers killed by Pedro Menendez in 1565. However, other people conjecture that these bones, if actually seen, were more likely from burial grounds of Native Americans who had lived in the area for many centuries.

Also the 'fort' was nothing more than a wooden watch tower fenced in. It wasn't until 175 years later the present day coquina fort was built. Also these watch towers were numerous, and they were on the coast line not inland on a barrier island(at first). It is possible that El Penon was Marineland, not Summerhaven. It is also possible an inlet was open there preventing the French from continuing. Marineland is in fact a mile plus south of the current Matanza Inlet. Time to MD...

Cappy, I was doing some research and came upon a reference to El Penon as the coquina quarry used in the construction of Fort Matanzas. The Spanish would not have hauled the coquina that was used for the Castillo from the north end of Anastasia Island (present day state park) to the south end. Knowing the Marineland area, you know there is an abundant supply of the coquina there. This would place the El Penon inlet just slightly north or the site of Marineland where there are no remnants of the coquina. Looking at the map that you provided, the current Matanzas Inlet is south of where it is depicted on the map at the time. Taking this into consideration, El Penon might indeed be in the Summerhaven area. Two years ago, there was a breach on the barrier island. The water will take the path of least resistance, and if there was a historical inlet in the past at this location, it stands to reason that this same area would be susceptible to reopening of the inlet by mother nature. So look south of the breach and north of Marineland...

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

I am convinced the French never made it pass Marineland due to the El Penon Inlet. I have compared several old maps and the layout of the present day topography. There is a river that runs predominately west to east that looks like it once emptied just north of Marineland into the ocean. I suspect this is the same river on the old maps and one that was cut in half by the corp of army engineers when deepening the inter coastal waterway. Although diminished? it is still deep enough to require a small bridge fro cars to pass over. I believe that the French were herded at Marineland, and then ferried 10 at a time from some point near the land just south and west of this bridge. It makes me think they may have left valuables of sorts somewhere within the small area of Marineland. I suspect the large group sat under live oak trees nearer the ICW and also near a fresh (drinking quality) water supply. Many small Indian villages were built immediately on a spring site. (St.Augustine's Fountain of Youth spring for example) Boy would I love to MD Marineland..but those people would never let john q. public in.

 

[Diver_Down]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Cappy, I think we are in the same area. The area I described was a bit broader, but still the same. Currently there are two bridges (before the Matanzas Inlet). One is directly adjacent to the current breach on the ocean side. And the other is currently under construction just south of the other one. I wonder if Marineland would be interested in hiring a "Grounds Maintenance" person?

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Cappy, I think we are in the same area. The area I described was a bit broader, but still the same. Currently there are two bridges (before the Matanzas Inlet). One is directly adjacent to the current breach on the ocean side. And the other is currently under construction just south of the other one. I wonder if Marineland would be interested in hiring a "Grounds Maintenance" person?

Several years ago I applied for a security guard position for night shift there. Almost got the job. Part of the job description at the time, was..feeding the dolphins and changing the water in their tanks. I had visions of families showing up to watch the show and behold the 'guard' was sleeping and the tanks were bone dry...the dolphins had a opaque look to their eyes and appeared thirsty.

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

C Z,


What about " old " rattlesnake island, NPS did find objects there, and on the ICW side of Maintenance Blds.
There where three sites: north and south of the Inlet. until we get a good storm to take away some sand out!! ??
now, when there was a hotel next to Marineland "south" some Spanish buttons, along french coins where found there,
when they where demolishing the building . you can detect the beach, mean high, mean low: Just don't dig up, and
brake up coquina rocks!

 

[vulcan007]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Nah...the true coquina quarry you are talking about is located south by washington oaks state park. This was the location of el penon just north. People have found old stuff there. Unfortunately, the park rangers don't let anyone hunt on the beach anymore.

The truth is that all of this is speculation and we don't really have any proof of where any treasure may be located. You can really spend every day combing the beach and come out with nothing. Like sappar said we need a hurricane type storm to remove several feet of sand before anything old will turn up.

This is why I like the Treasure Coast better because at least there is certainty that if a storm hits the beach you will find something good!

My theory is that el penon is by Washington Oak SP and the good stuff is there. This is why the NPS stopped metal detecting there. The excuse they give is because it will damage the coquina rocks...(sounds fishy)

V

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

What shipwreck do you think is near Washington Oak park?

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

State law allows all beach MDing unless its Federal like Matanza. The cops cannot tell you, not to MD the beach. Period. Now, let me say that when the French marched..there was no digging at any quarry. The lookout tower was made of wood and had to be replaced almost yearly. The focus on el Penon is really about the inlet that stopped the French literally in their tracks. They very easily could have marched to about 1000 feet pass Marineland until the inlet stopped them. They could also have waited on the ICW under tall oak trees and been ferried from that point. Either way, that is the furthest they could have walked. I believe as they waited, some of them must have chosen to bury valuables than to have them stolen by the Spanish. I also believe that they buried cannon and other heavy 'treasure' DEEP just north of the Ponce Inlet, thinking they would later return. I suspect they maybe they buried items near the Green Mound which is still vacant today. I thought of MDing the beachside(ocean) and eyeballing the dunes for clues. Anyway, thanks for the ongoing dialogue..it's cold here in Florida!

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Well,, Take a choice: L' E'paule de Mouton , Truite , L' Esme'rillon , maybe?
between Sand , Civil War runner's, and modern day Shrimp boats mixed in. Until a nice small storm take
sand away, and move things around!! it's a guessing game.

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

If any of those ships had treasure on them,its now all gone.I know who worked the site over 20 to 30 years ago and im sure they got most of it.No worries about them going back to get anymore.They are in thier late 80's,they cant dive anymore and thier treasure boat is rotting away in storage.I know where 2 of the wrecks they worked are.

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

If any of those ships had treasure on them,its now all gone.I know who worked the site over 20 to 30 years ago and im sure they got most of it.No worries about them going back to get anymore.They are in thier late 80's,they cant dive anymore and thier treasure boat is rotting away in storage.I know where 2 of the wrecks they worked are.

I am absolutely positive there is a helluva lot of treasure nearby on shore....everyone talks about a storm to move the sand...I prefer thinking out of the box.

HH
Cap Z.

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

I spearfish that area for years . Well.. someone missed alot!!
Well, we will just have to wait for the TreasureGods again' to release some great Treasure for all!

 

[godisnum1]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Here?

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Food for thought II.

Dell,


I used your method's to : everything is scatter, : but close.. and three sites; " sea and land"
when spearfishing many years ago in the area, south of the washington oaks state park, there where great reefs,
Fish everywhere!! The reefs ran, north and south, and by southeast. some reefs did make to the " Original " Matanzas inlet" , which is now the matanzas beach ramp across from the fort entrance, " that was the main inlet ", then "El Penon Inlet" , south with 2 small cuts threw the marsh and oyster beds " hightide uses only ", between the beach ramp to painters hill, there's 7 wrecks sites, I saw many wood / rock piles. piles here an there, 400yrs or so, another pile they where very old, between storms, dredging, runouts everything is buried now. until we get a storm..

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Food for thought.

I'm picking up 3 French ships, two were carrying Treasure. They were anchored in the shallow lagoon on the West side of A1A, just past where the highway turns away from the beach North of Marineland.

It looks like a storm blew them Northward, and they ended up to the East side of A1A, in a marshy area where they still remain. It appears to me that much of the Treasure is still there. Dell

Cappy Z's Believe it or not: I had a dream about four years ago that a small boat was intentionally buried just south where the ocean broke through the dunes a year or so ago. The boat is full of survivor stuff and it was intentionally sunk and then buried over with sand. EVERY TIME I look at a map or even when I drive by my minds eye is drawn instantaneously to the exact spot... however..I don't own the land and it is on the west side of the dune.

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Dell,


I just stay around the area and south. still learning.. I found 5 great targets!!!, Just waiting for
the right time to go. still learning on that to.

S