histroy of the cave /tunnel

[Oroblanco]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Cactusjumper wrote

All of that was clear enough, but as you state, Herman's claim "is not supported by the evidence."

I suppose it doesn't really make any difference.

Well, lets get specific here, Herman's claims about having been at Jacob's side are not supported by evidence; Reiney certainly was, and the story of having seen the shipping records (what ever is meant by that) is well after Waltz was dead, and the Petrasches had grown discouraged with hunting the mine. Higham seems to be saying that he himself saw the document<s> referred to, in his sentence

"It is hard to deny facts when they stare you in the face,.."

I never thought the whole Wells Fargo quarter-million part of the Dutchman legend was a large historic issue until I came here. If it is true, and I think it is, whatever proceeds came about from Waltz shipping any ore did not turn up at his death so is not like we could go dig for it somewhere. Most legends have a basis in fact though many of the skeptics deny it.

Found a sheaf of notes taken for another project <totally unrelated> that I had thought were lost too, going through the old stuff is almost like a mini-treasure hunt for me. I do wish that I had done a better job of noting exactly where a statement or fact tidbit was found though, seems I wrote a lot down that I didn't bother to do that as it was intended only for my own use but years later when you try to find where any certain bit was found it is quite a task. An example that is bugging me (and still have not found) was a statement made by a Custer scout, which I thought was interesting at the time I read it; it would be an interesting point for the book but now can not find.

See you soon with empty coffee mug in hand,
Roy

 

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[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

Unfortunately, Higham was never known for his accurate portrayal of history. I believe that's the consensus of most of the historians who have read his stuff. I am probably to much of a stickler for historical facts. Hard habit to break after pounding the facts for almost sixty years.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,

Unfortunately, Higham was never known for his accurate portrayal of history. I believe that's the consensus of most of the historians who have read his stuff. I am probably to much of a stickler for historical facts. Hard habit to break after pounding the facts for almost sixty years.

Take care,

Joe

and you got no where,, ROFL

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Here's something that bugs me a little about about folks like Higham, Barnard, Rosecrans, Rose and some others...

They were around "fairly early" in the LDM story, and in a number of cases seem to be absolutely adamant (to the point of ridiculing other authors for just making up stories) that they know the REAL history of Waltz (or Walzer/Waltzer, etc...) and his mine/gold.

I'm not a fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in all these cases just because some of the things they state have been proven to be factually wrong. They didn't all just sit around making up stories and printing them in books for the fun of it (at least I don't believe they did). Were they victims of rumors, stories, etc... that they never checked out fully enough for authenticity, or did some of them stumble across documented factual history that has disappeared over time? Let's face it, I'm CERTAIN that over the years, many original documents have been stolen from offical records never to again see the light of day.

Don't get me wrong, I don't place any of those fellows above on any pedestal of historical accuracy, BUT... what's the possibility that one or more of them came across documents none of the rest of us will ever see, and/or spoke to people firsthand or secondhand who had specific factual information that once again cannot be adequately documented any longer?

At this point, I'm not in a position to go through any of those folks' books point by point to try to prove things correct or incorrect - just wondering if any of you have considered what I stated above?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Unfortunately, Higham was never known for his accurate portrayal of history. I believe that's the consensus of most of the historians who have read his stuff. I am probably to much of a stickler for historical facts. Hard habit to break after pounding the facts for almost sixty years.

Take care,

Joe

Higham's published works are certainly fitting of your description, but his private correspondence is at issue here not stuff meant for public consumption; in his letters to Mrs McGee, he is clearly trying to "set the record straight" on a number of points not specifically the WF 'records'. He certainly can be mistaken, for instance I believe Higham to be wholly mistaken on his identifying Von Walzer as the true name of Waltz, based on the known documents signed by Waltz but think Higham certainly believed that to be true. One of Higham's statements has been echoed here on T-net more than once, just for an example of the type of setting the relevant statements were made in:

"It seems that Apache Jct. is completely composed of cheap liars made so because they themselves have also been taken."


Blindbowman wrote (in reply to Joe's post)

and you got no where,, ROFL

You don't know that to be fact amigo- Joe has said that he never found the LDM, he never said that he NEVER found ANY treasures of any kind. In fact there have been rumors in circulation for some time that Joe did make a spectacular find, and is why he is so well off today, just that he has never made it public knowledge. If you struck it rich, would you broadcast that info to the world?


Cubfan wrote

At this point, I'm not in a position to go through any of those folks' books point by point to try to prove things correct or incorrect - just wondering if any of you have considered what I stated above?

I am absolutely convinced that a great deal of documents have vanished over time. Early treasure hunters had no compunctions about simply taking any and all documents in their search for a lost treasure or mine, and it was a bit of a surprise when I learned that the Franciscan padres at San Xavier were selling off early Jesuit documents to tourists for a dollar a page. Henry Flipper gathered up Tayopa documents for his personal use. There were no copying machines in the early days, and in many cases no law was broken to take an old document, some have been lost in fires, floods etc. It is a mistake for modern history researchers to presume that all we have available today, is all that ever existed.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

roy that may be the best reply i have ever seen you make ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

ORO posted-->and is why he is so well off today----
************

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Joey, mi beloved compadre, top coffee and steak fixer upper, errr---------------E\___________/ snicker.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. not even blushing heehehehe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,
_______________________________

[Blindbowman wrote (in reply to Joe's post)

Quote
and you got no where,, ROFL]
_______________________________

Actually I took a number of things from the Superstition Mountains.

I learned that my journey was truly my destination, as well as a treasure beyond measure. In that journey, I made many friends that will last a lifetime. No gold mine or cave of gold bars can compare to that and the memories I have made.

There is nothing that I can say or write that will add or detract from bb's success or failure. In the end, his theory or story will rise or fall on it's own merits. None of us know how much of his story here has been truth and how much has been fiction. I doubt he knows himself at this point.

If bb shows up at the Rendezvous, he will have his chance to become part of the history of the mountains. That's all any of us can ask for......the chance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Roy,
_______________________________

[Blindbowman wrote (in reply to Joe's post)

Quote
and you got no where,, ROFL]
_______________________________

Actually I took a number of things from the Superstition Mountains.

I learned that my journey was truly my destination, as well as a treasure beyond measure. In that journey, I made many friends that will last a lifetime. No gold mine or cave of gold bars can compare to that and the memories I have made.

There is nothing that I can say or write that will add or detract from bb's success or failure. In the end, his theory or story will rise or fall on it's own merits. None of us know how much of his story here has been truth and how much has been fiction. I doubt he knows himself at this point.

If bb shows up at the Rendezvous, he will have his chance to become part of the history of the mountains. That's all any of us can ask for......the chance.

Take care,

Joe

that may be the best reply i have ever seen you make joe ..

i have seen part of your search from a far and no man works free of danger in those mts..nature it selfs hold the path of her own future and we are all just the victums of our own dreams and motives ..

from a unexplained sighting to a Rendenzous of people i dont know and most likely will never see again .. just to get the chance to go back and risk my life once more to prove i am who i am ...

i knew that to start with ...

" time is a path we all must walk...."

 

[St. Jerome]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Ok. So it is or isn't the dutch cave of geronimo that was used by moctezuma? or wasn't it? And the the stones only point to where something might be but we aren't sure if the dutch new about it before the peralta stones were made but it is either walt disney or mickey mouse himself only, knows what and where it is...whatever it is...right? Im sure there is a bottom to this spiral staircase. As for the top...? Nah. What is in this place? Why were the aztec people so concerned with this desert up here and why is there little evidence. There is more to this mystery but we are just grabassing back and forth to nowhere and no avail. What does anyone really know about this cave? back it up? concrete reality of this place that exists. There is this cave.. what is to be found in it and why would it be there?

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Ok. So it is or isn't the dutch cave of geronimo that was used by moctezuma? or wasn't it? And the the stones only point to where something might be but we aren't sure if the dutch new about it before the peralta stones were made but it is either walt disney or mickey mouse himself only, knows what and where it is...whatever it is...right? Im sure there is a bottom to this spiral staircase. As for the top...? Nah. What is in this place? Why were the aztec people so concerned with this desert up here and why is there little evidence. There is more to this mystery but we are just grabassing back and forth to nowhere and no avail. What does anyone really know about this cave? back it up? concrete reality of this place that exists. There is this cave.. what is to be found in it and why would it be there?

thats simple to answer IMHO .. the cave is a secert shaman cave where the brith of all tribes took place az far back as the brith of the aztec them them selfs

its not so much value able as wealth . its secert like their church ..
thousand of people hidden in these caves from the great flood .. and as the tribe with in grew they cast out tribes as they developed within they were cast outward to make each tribe ..the location is not what everyone thinks it is .. if thats the cave you are talking about ...IMHO the cave is part of a larger catcom system

 

[action14]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Ok. So it is or isn't the dutch cave of geronimo that was used by moctezuma? or wasn't it? And the the stones only point to where something might be but we aren't sure if the dutch new about it before the peralta stones were made but it is either walt disney or mickey mouse himself only, knows what and where it is...whatever it is...right? Im sure there is a bottom to this spiral staircase. As for the top...? Nah. What is in this place? Why were the aztec people so concerned with this desert up here and why is there little evidence. There is more to this mystery but we are just grabassing back and forth to nowhere and no avail. What does anyone really know about this cave? back it up? concrete reality of this place that exists. There is this cave.. what is to be found in it and why would it be there?

thats simple to answer IMHO .. the cave is a secert shaman cave where the brith of all tribes took place az far back as the brith of the aztec them them selfs

its not so much value able as wealth . its secert like their church ..
thousand of people hidden in these caves from the great flood .. and as the tribe with in grew they cast out tribes as they developed within they were cast outward to make each tribe ..the location is not what everyone thinks it is .. if thats the cave you are talking about ...IMHO the cave is part of a larger catcom system

The cave is the sacred cave of the Aztecs ...If you look at the codec of the seven caves you will see the indigenous plants of arizona on it. The Apache legend regarding there sacred cave in the superstitions is that the entrance is guarded by two rattle snakes one male and one female, and there are two bowls by them. One needs to place a blue stone or a white stone in the bowl depending on if you are male or female and say the Apache prayer to enter the cave. If you look at the ancient Aztec codec it shows two rattle snakes and two bowls at the caves entrance. This is a definite link IMHO between the apache cave and the golden cave known as Chicomoztoc,,,,,

I dont believe the cave protected the seven tribes from flood but from the solar storm that burns the earth at the end of every age. That is why its the seven caves of gold... Gold is the best shield from heat and radiation, that is why our astronauts have suits with a fine layer of gold woven in them. The lost dutchman Mine is the ancient mine that provided the gold for this sacred cave.

This mans opinion....

 

[action14]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Indian legend speaks of Moctezuma predicting a great calamity. The tribes gathered a the edge of the Superstitions as moctezuma instructed many workers on how to build the sacred cave. He then took the priest and hand picked members of each tribe and led them into the mountain. I believe the the sacred cave is an "ark" to save the seven tribes. When asking the Apache's about the lost dutchman's mine they would say "not a mine but a cave of gold" Many Apache believe Waltz tor his gold from the walls of the sacred cave. Sounds to me like the cave they are referring to has walls with gold attached.

 

[St. Jerome]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Ok. That sounds pretty neat. Didn't someone say it was big enough for a man to barely fit? Was there a frying pan on a hill nearby? What about the mortar used to cement the rock? It was made with some blood? Just bits of the story that I heard here and there. Could be a mix of stories. They all seem to mix together at some point. We all have ideas but there are only a few clues and I think these were some. I could be wrong. Why d they call it four peaks?

 

[somehiker]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

The Romans found,and they were experts when it came to the formulation and use of concrete,that adding blood (possibly horse blood) to the mix would increase the resistance to frost damage.Good for mortar and concrete statues.Slower setting and in the end,softer(less brittle/earthquake resistant) as well.
"The Romans are generally credited as being the first concrete engineers, but ..... Animal fat, milk, and blood were used as admixtures (substances added to ..."........http://nabataea.net/cement.html
Many ancient buildings and statues...Egyptian/Greek/Roman etc....long thought to be of stone,have been more recently studied and found to be made of concrete.
Here is a photo which has both natural volcanic rock (very hard and brittle) and old mortar (much softer and easy to break),which has separated from the rock over time.

When viewed from the west,Four Peaks is the most prominent landmark on the distant horizon.It also has four distinct summits (peaks).

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Wayne,

Not saying that your "mortar" is not just that, but it looks exactly like an old caliche deposit that formed around the native rock and over the decades/century's broke away from that surface, due to the weather/temperature changing effects of mother nature.

That being said, as you know, I don't know $#!t about rocks.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Joe,

What do you think about this? I know it is caliche, but is it man made? Notice the way it looks as if it were squeezed out between the boulders as they were fitted together? Sort of like mortar between bricks? It is mostly sand as the predominant rock is sandstone. Doesn't appear to be formed AFTER the rocks were in place.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Mike,

My unqualified opinion is that there were cracks/fissures in the native rock, and the caliche filled those voids, moving gravel and sand out as it formed. From what I can see, I don't believe the rock (blocks) were placed there by the hands of man.

You may have more evidence that indicates otherwise.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Wayne,

Not saying that your "mortar" is not just that, but it looks exactly like an old caliche deposit that formed around the native rock and over the decades/century's broke away from that surface, due to the weather/temperature changing effects of mother nature.

That being said, as you know, I don't know $#!t about rocks.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:
Certainly the most likely conclusion."Naturally occurring" would probably apply to just about any caliche layer said to have been used by "the Apache" to cover or otherwise seal Spanish mines.That is one part of the LDM saga which I find far fetched.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: history of the cave /tunnel

Ah caliche, caliche you say tomato, I say tomato.

I think it would take a geologist to tell the difference between some of the natural caliche you find, and some of the lime based plasters and cements used by the advanced Indian peoples; the Aztecs and Mayas both burned lime for lime plaster and a form of cement, and there are ancient lime kilns (for burning lime to make quicklime, a critical ingredient for cement and plaster) located along the Salt river valley. These kilns are sometimes mistaken for primitive metal foundries, but the lack of any slag helps give them away. So there is evidence that local (Hohokam) may well have been making lime plaster or a type of cement, which after time and weathering would be very difficult to tell from natural caliche which is basically much the same thing only naturally formed. Just my amateur opinion, but I don't think we can tell for certain just by looking at photos. Please do continue....

Oroblanco