How sure is it that the Lost Dutchman mine is in the Superstitions?

[somehiker]

Hey Yáll,

Do any of you have a better copy of this photograph?

I musta been standing just a little bit north of the "corridor" I guess.
But I get a little "shiver" every time I see it......SH.

 

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[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

Attached are two more photographs of the BOOT from different angles. Take your time and look these photos over for any man made enhancement. Pay attention to detail and it may payoff. Did anyone notice the soldier in the first BOOT photo? An "A" for those of you who have found him. You are learning to recognize the techniques used to construct these shadow monuments and the different components of color, texture and design which includes shadow writing. Do not think for a moment that this unique artwork is B.S. There are many more of these shadow monuments to see and interpret, so grab the wife and kids then you too will be amazed at what children can see in these photographs. My kids have seen most of them in person and even traveled with me into the deserts to take photographs at night under a full moon. These were some of the best times we had together and all of them will swear that these monuments do exist.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

The mine the 'Gloria Pan' and this cave are still untouched. Maybe some day Huh ORO??

My memory must be really going bad, for I had thought that both Gloria Pan and Lluvia de Oro were now under private ownerships (claims)? Are you saying that Gloria Pan is not under claim now? What a quandary - though I suspect Tayopa probably has far greater reserves of precious metals, I really don't know. Having never been to either mine, just to visit one would be quite a thrill for me, but 'bottom line' - only you have any real idea about the quantities and qualities of the remaining ores. I have to trust in your astute judgement amigo.

Don Jose', Dueno de Tayopa also wrote

I will give no sympathy to ORO the first time that he backs into one.

Well I do take care not to back into them, but have scars to prove a more than passing acquaintance with "jumping cactus".
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening: Oro, the Lluvia de Oro 'is' owned, the Gloria pan mine is still closed and free the last time that I checked. The Cave with the sun on the cliff above it, is also free.

I believe that I am the only one alive that knows where the Gloria pan mine is.

The cave may be known now since it isn't too far from Tubares, but not of the huge treasure buried inside of it.

I apologize for not having sent the intimate details of that data, among others, to you yet.

Since the mine is still closed, I have absoloutely no idea on it's ore, other than it, and six others were considered the richest in northern Mexico.

I have tentively, or actually located, the Gloria pan, Los Placers of Tepoca, Las Pimas, La Tarasca, and naturally Tayopa. This was necesary to go all out on the search for Tayopa.

Side thingie ,there is large rock with "Camino Real de Fuego de Barrras" engraved on it near Tubares. The Fuego de barras was a lead mine that was associated with the Gloria Pan mine.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Hey Yáll,

Do any of you have a better copy of this photograph?

Ellie,

Glad to help out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Hi Group,

Attached are two more photographs of the BOOT from different angles. Take your time and look these photos over for any man made enhancement. Pay attention to detail and it may payoff. ...

A spectacular plug neck, yes, but I for one don't see evidence (or need) of man's enhancement here. No scree, no slab piles - just a weathered plug with the usual natural scaling occuring on the sun-exposed side perhaps eons ago during its continuing weathering cycle. It's a helluva landmark for sure, one worthy of inclusion in a waybill/layout, but why would this particular example even require enhancement?

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Group,

Attached are two more photographs of the BOOT from different angles. Take your time and look these photos over for any man made enhancement. Pay attention to detail and it may payoff. ...

A spectacular plug neck, yes, but I for one don't see evidence (or need) of man's enhancement here. No scree, no slab piles - just a weathered plug with the usual natural scaling occuring on the sun-exposed side perhaps eons ago during its continuing weathering cycle. It's a helluva landmark for sure, one worthy of inclusion in a waybill/layout, but why would this particular example even require enhancement?

It is a helluva landmark for a layout/waybill which is known as the "Stone Maps". Read on and understand. The attached photograph depicts the boot as it begins to reveal the clues related to the depository and the message is not yet in full phase. This shadow art is presented in an animated version so you have to watch the panel/screen on the boot for the greater part of a day. Understand that the information depicted can only be interpreted at 95% phase or better. This only happens twice a year. You must also understand the importance of the analemma and how to use it's knowledge as required by these shadow symbols.

This particular landmark depicts the key codes of the depository's location. Without this vital information the Stone Maps could never be deciphered. The maps were designed to be used on this site per the instructions on the Priest Map, “Study the map. Study the heart”. Which heart are you supposed to study? All of the hearts as shown on the stone tablets and you must include the ones on the ground. And why is this important? Notice the so called wavy lines that some say represent outlines of mountains on the horizon. These can be found on the trail/Heart tablets when placed one on top of the other. In the middle left side of the trail tablet notice the symbol with the rounded hump, then a pyramid shape and two smaller pyramids that look like an M. So you have a hump, pyramid, pyramid and pyramid. It was not meant to be carved as a perfect set of symbols. If the symbols were carved to look like pyramids then everyone would be looking for pyramids. Since there are in fact three pyramids located on the site this symbol makes perfect sense. The point to be made here is to study the hearts on the ground and there are four. On the left side of one of these hearts the symbol noted above is located. The symbol is about six hundred feet long and about 250 feet in height. The ground upon which this symbol has been located has been treated with some type of agent so that nothing will grow there. It’s quite remarkable. We now have a heart and a hump with a P, P & P symbol found together verifying the location where you will need to use the “Stone Tablets”. The next step is to orient the tablets to true north. We will discuss this later, but it has to do with the 3 other lookalike mountain peaks on the trail map and the number three. It is too early to give away all of the secrets. El Caballo de Santa Fe does in fact show you how to get to this site that has over 9 square miles of shadow monuments and symbols located on it. No one has any idea how large and complicated this site actually is. It was constructed as a memorial to Jesus Christ and a very unique treasure(s). How many of you are familiar with the Spiral Staircase located on the Super’s foothills near Dinosaur Mountain? The SS site is a well hidden underground complex which contained a number of artifacts representing the field of Egyptology. It has been closed now for a number of years and is watched/monitored 7/24 by the FEDS. Any of you familiar with this site let me know what you know. This site is not mentioned on the Stone Tablets either, but it is a critical location that is needed to solve the puzzle. The boot is one of the largest symbols found on the site and at the same time tells you where to locate the depository. This information can also be found on the maps but without the boots message you will never decipher the clues. Someday I will write a book for there is so much information it makes my head spin. Forgive me for not sticking to the main point as I have a tendency to wander.
I think you got more than you asked for Springfield and I hope everyone is beginning to understand the sheer magnitude of this site and its significance.
EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

Man needs a couple of Philadelphia lawyers, a young boy and a few star gazers to follow your messages.

Are we supposed to find a correlation between your Masonic art and the figure eight movement of the sun?
Do you believe there is a message in the symbols found in the picture, rather than a series of independent images? It's no great feat to understand that the shadows on the boot will change shape as the sun follows it's well known path.

If someone here has enough knowledge to figure out the piecemeal puzzle you are presenting, the answers will be revealed. End of secret code/message. Why not save us all the years of research it took for someone(s) to figure out this theory, and just tell us what you want us to understand. Most of us are still trying to figure out what the original topic was here. Well......At least I am.

Sooo...... were you going to thank me for posting that picture of Thomas Brierley's tombstone, or did you already have it?

This shows the whole thing:

Take care,

Joe

 

[Ellie Baba]

From Joe:

Are we supposed to find a correlation between your Masonic art and the figure eight movement of the sun?

Only in the sense of knowledge, as in combined and includes the secrets of the ages from the Sumerians to present day. You gather together the most know ledgable men you can find and devise a hiding place for the most valuable artifacts in the world. They come from all walks of life with diverse specialized professions that most of the common people of the day would not be able to grasp. We are trying to reverse engineer what they did by seeking those with the talent and educations to understand how this puzzle was designed thus solving stone maps. Our hope is that we would find some of these people here within the forums.

Do you believe there is a message in the symbols found in the picture, rather than a series of independent images? It's no great feat to understand that the shadows on the boot will change shape as the sun follows it's well known path.

Of course I do. There are independent images that portray the story concerning this site and some dedicated to religious historical events. Some are used to terrify the superstitious into leaving the area never to return. I believe this is where the name for the Superstitions originally came from.

The shadows on the boot will change shape as the sun follows it's well known path.
What is the sun's well known path? If you have the knowledge to determine its path concerning the landmark then I really need your input. We would also need a mathematician to determine where to make the precise reliefs into the rock to produce the correct shadow width and length.


If someone here has enough knowledge to figure out the piecemeal puzzle you are presenting, the answers will be revealed. End of secret code/message. Why not save us all the years of research it took for someone(s) to figure out this theory, and just tell us what you want us to understand. Most of us are still trying to figure out what the original topic was here. Well......At least I am.


I am hoping that some of you will step up to the plate and join me in this endeavor. This is what I want to accomplish; Documenting and preserving these sites and solving the mysteries related to the different secret societies or sects involved. At the same time hopefully locate and distribute these treasures to their rightful owners. Please understand that this project will proceed by following all state and Federal laws/regulations. It can be no other way. We will make plenty of money along the way. Although I have not become wealthy form my research as of late. I am open to any suggestions concerning recovery and disposition which opens a whole new can of worms. I am already familiar with the State of Arizona and its laws of chattel. The original topic; is the Lost Dutchman Mine located in the Superstitions? There is no Lost Dutchman Mine, never was. The Architects started this story to cover up their tracks and they did one hell of a job. I suppose that a new category for this thread could be started in another location if there is an interest concerning this subject. And, Yes, Thank-you Joe for the picture. I do have one but without the name and dates.
Thanks for your input.
EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

"The shadows on the boot will change shape as the sun follows it's well known path.
What is the sun's well known path? If you have the knowledge to determine its path concerning the landmark then I really need your input. We would also need a mathematician to determine where to make the precise reliefs into the rock to produce the correct shadow width and length."

You are correct here. I should have worded that differently.

The real secret, which is no secret at all, is the movement(s) of the earth in relation to the position of the sun. IN order to tie that into the Stone Maps, and the shadow markers you have mentioned, would have taken decades of labor and engineers of greater ability than most, or any, in this age.

The figure eight, or infinity symbol that is carved into the Stone Maps would be the obvious key. You would need to observe that location for one (1) year, from Superstition Peak, to unlock the code for the Stone Maps.
I don't believe the figure eight, or any of the symbols were placed on the map in any random manner. They all match up with specific landmarks.

Now all of the above is just my uninformed, uneducated guess/opinions. If there is any merit to my blind suppositions, it would be pure luck. ON the other hand, I assume you are here because you don't have all the answers, and are looking for anything that will push you in a new direction.

I doubt anything I have written will accomplish that, but was wondering if this is the kind of ruminations you are seeking.

One other thing: The end of the Stone Map Trail is in the center of the heart. That heart is in Little Boulder Canyon. The heart would create a fine shadow to map out a calendar code, but it would take some time. Is there some kind of formula to do that without observing the shadow for a complete year?

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear Ellie Baba;
Of course, you are going with the supposition that the LDM is actually somewhere in the Superstition mountains my friend. In all reality, we don't even know if the Superstition mountains are in the Superstition mountains! For all anyone knows, the Superstition mountains may actually be south, down in Mexico, which changes quite a few things. And, if the Superstitions are actually where they're supposed to be, what was to stop Jacob Waltz from not telling the truth?

Also, we know that ol' Jacob had been exposed to the elements for quite an extended period, therefore he was not even lucid when he told of his fabulous mine. Perhaps Jacob Wlatz was not in the Supes at all, rather he was in Mexico and in his delirium, got confused and thought that he was somehow in the Supes instead of in Mexico.

We know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona. There did exist one Peralta, a certain Miguel Peralta, who had a gold mine in California throughout the 1860s, but soon played out. Miguel Peralta then conned someone into buying the mineral rights to a fictious Spanish grant.

Perhaps Jacob Waltz was actually in California when he discovered the mine and this would mean that everyone has been searching in the wrong state. There are lots of possibilities my friend. Also, perhaps the mine was rediscovered at a later date, only it was never realized that it was the original Lost Dutchman Mine, or perhaps, if it was known, it was kept a secret lest surviving family members keep from claiming rights to it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
You wrote:

"We know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona."

Anyone who has researched this subject will tell you that assertion is completely false.

You are out of your element when discussing the LDM. Nothing personal, just based that opinion on the silly statements you just wrote.

Take care,

Perhaps you would like to provide a bit of documented proof, my friend. I was one of the first people who actually did the legwork in the Peralta association to the LDM and I found nothing in either the Arizona state archives, nor the New Mexico archives, nor the Mexican national archives, nor the Spanish Royal archives which leads one to conclude that no person with the surname of Perlata ever mined any minerals in what is now the state of Arizona, however perhaps I overlooked a detail or two. Please enlighten me, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I am at our store right now, but I will give you the references you have requested.

"There did exist one Peralta, a certain Miguel Peralta, who had a gold mine in California throughout the 1860s, but soon played out. Miguel Peralta then conned someone into buying the mineral rights to a fictious Spanish grant."

You are mixing up your Miguel Peraltas here. The Miguel Peralta that is part of the Reavis fraud, was a complete fabrication. The one in California was the real thing and he ended up in Arizona.......as I remember.
I believe he had a gold mine up in Black Canyon, but I could have that name wrong. Believe I am right.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper,
Yes, my friend, I've already researched that angle, some 20 odd years ago in 1988, if memory serves and I came up with zip. Nobody named Peralta ever staked a claim in the Black Canyon zone nor did anyone named Peralta ever own an interest in any such mine. I think the T-bird claims that it's pedigree includes Peraltas in it's background, however no one can seem to produce any legal documentation to back up that claim. As it stands, I am still waiting to be enlightened, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
I am still waiting, my friend. I suppose that it takes much less time to insult someone than it does to find the documented proof to back up the insult.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi Joe,
The figure eight, or (analemma curve) infinity symbol that is carved into the Stone Maps would be the obvious key. You would need to observe that location for one (1) year, from Superstition Peak, to unlock the code for the Stone Maps. I don't believe the figure eight, or any of the symbols were placed on the map in any random manner. They all match up with specific landmarks.
The Stone Maps were a clever creation as the infinity symbol will trick quite a few people as in this case it also represents an analemma curve. See attached doc.
Now all of the above is just my uninformed, uneducated guess/opinions. If there is any merit to my blind suppositions, it would be pure luck. ON the other hand, I assume you are here because you don't have all the answers, and are looking for anything that will push you in a new direction.
I do not have all the answers and I am comfortable where I am. I would like to create a new team of Architects to unravel the Stone Maps.
One other thing: The end of the Stone Map Trail is in the center of the heart. That heart is in Little Boulder Canyon. The heart would create a fine shadow to map out a calendar code, but it would take some time. Is there some kind of formula to do that without observing the shadow for a complete year?
I believe that this particular heart is the one that beats in everyone chest. For where is our real treasure? Is it not in heaven where rust, decay or moths cannot destroy. Lamar what does the heart symbolize in the Jesuit circle?
And Lamar, please read Jesse Feldsman's new book, Jacob's Trail the Legend of Jacob Waltz's Lost Dutchman Mine. The Valenciana Mine near Black Canyon City off of I-17 is the oldest known Spanish mine in Arizona.
Time to eat something.
Latter All,

EB

 

[lamar]

Dear Ellie Babe;
The Valenciana Mine, owned wholly by Conde Valenciana, ceased operations in 1811 AD, more almost 80 years before the rise of the LDM legend, my friend, therefore that particular mine has no bearing on the subject whatsoever.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Ellie Baba]

Dear Ellie Babe;
The Valenciana Mine, owned wholly by Conde Valenciana, ceased operations in 1811 AD, more almost 80 years before the rise of the LDM legend, my friend, therefore that particular mine has no bearing on the subject whatsoever.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I never disagreed with you Lamar. I too am in agreement with your comments as are some others. What about the heart Lamar. What is your insight as to its meaning as defined by the Jesuits?

As per your previous comment concerning the Dutchman; Quite frankly my friend I don't give a hoot!
While Piermont C. Bicknell was writing about the Dutchman and his lost mine he was playing around with his mining claims near Cave Creek. Bicknell, like the Dutchman was interested in mining and somewhere along the line they probably crossed paths. Bicknell lived most of his life here in Arizona.

If the story written by Bicknell was true why didn't he file claims in the reported area of the hidden mine? Woolsey knew the the Dutchman and so did Sheriff Montgomery. It is so easy to start a rumor and it does not hold any water if the facts cannot be documented. I will try to post the analemma curve again in a much smaller size.

EB

 

[lamar]

Dear Ellie Baba;
To the Jesuits, the heart symbol represents the Sacred Heart of Jesus which in turn represents His undying and everlasting love for all of mankind, my friend. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is particularly revered by the Jesuits due to the vision which occurred during the Octave of Corpus Christi, around 16 June 1675 AD at the Jesuit house in Paray when St. Margaret Mary Alocoque had a vision of Jesus Christ appearing before her. She told her confessor, St. Fr. Claude de la Colombière who was the Jesuit Superior General at Paray, after which he became a zealous follower and desciple of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

As an aside and disclaimer, I am not a Jesuit, nor have I ever been one therefore I am not wholly qualified to answer questions on their behalf, rather I am stating my personal opinion of what the typical modern-day Jesuit would most probably say.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

e know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona.

May I suggest this sentence to be edited to say, "...in the Superstition mountains of Arizona" in which case most of us could find no fault. There is evidence of Peraltas owning a gold mine in Arizona, some of which has been published, but I know of no documentary evidence of any Peraltas owning any kind of property within the Superstition mountains.

Lamar also wrote

Dear Ellie Baba;
Of course, you are going with the supposition that the LDM is actually somewhere in the Superstition mountains my friend. In all reality, we don't even know if the Superstition mountains are in the Superstition mountains! For all anyone knows, the Superstition mountains may actually be south, down in Mexico, which changes quite a few things. And, if the Superstitions are actually where they're supposed to be, what was to stop Jacob Waltz from not telling the truth?

Also, we know that ol' Jacob had been exposed to the elements for quite an extended period, therefore he was not even lucid when he told of his fabulous mine. Perhaps Jacob Wlatz was not in the Supes at all, rather he was in Mexico and in his delirium, got confused and thought that he was somehow in the Supes instead of in Mexico.

We know there is no such family with the surname of Peralta that ever lived or mined gold or silver in Arizona. There did exist one Peralta, a certain Miguel Peralta, who had a gold mine in California throughout the 1860s, but soon played out. Miguel Peralta then conned someone into buying the mineral rights to a fictious Spanish grant.

Perhaps Jacob Waltz was actually in California when he discovered the mine and this would mean that everyone has been searching in the wrong state. There are lots of possibilities my friend.

In support of the possibility that Waltz lied, we know there are several falsehoods to be found in his story as found in the Holmes manuscript; however in this case there is reason to suspect that Waltz was trying to mislead a person whom had trailed him in the past, (Holmes) and it is possible that Holmes himself introduced misleading statements in order to protect the mine from anyone finding it.

As for the proposition that Waltz's gold mine was actually in California, we do know that Waltz did live and work in CA for some time prior to moving to Arizona. In this case, we would have to wonder why he would bother to venture into the Superstitions at all, or why he would tell his friends Julia Thomas and Reiney Petrasch that the mine was in the Superstitions? To send his friends on a Fool's Errand? This does not make much sense, but where the Lost Dutchman is concerned, few things do!
Oroblanco