Id norm

[Theppgcowboy]

Advantages yes or no?

 

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[vferrari]

Yes and no. Mostly no. And if you get an HF coil, there is no ID norm option so you might as well get used to making the on the fly adjustment in your head. Don't get too hung up on memorizing precise target IDs because the Deus is not that precise on TID in the first place.

 

[HuntinDog]

I just got a 9"hf coil and just tried it out yesterday.
I was impressed with how quite it was...
At first I thought WTH... how do I turn off ID Norm??
Than I remembered there isn't ID Norm on the HF coils.
They just run at what ever the freq. you are in.
So I just kept on hunting and used full tones.
I found that the tones were spot on and I didn't need the IDs.

So, my answer to your question is: I don't see a need for it...

GL&HH

 

[CharlesUpstateNY]

ID normalization was supposed to fix a problem of targets having drastically different ID's depending on what frequency you are running. But this feature normalizes targets to the target ID at the highest frequency which is even worse. As you increase coil frequency target ID's get more and more crammed together at the top of the 0-99 ID range, to the point that at the higher frequencies a bunch of targets give you basically the same ID. Worse the Deus target ID isn't that accurate in the first place, when the target ID starts bouncing around several numbers with the targets already crammed together you really don't know what you are digging, basically 3 ID's foil, mid conductor, high conductor.

I turned the ID normalization off, sampled a bunch of targets at all three frequencies and printed off a pocket field guide. Now I can use the different sets of target ID's for each frequency as a feature. At someone's suggestion I programmed a mirror image of my main program with the only difference being set to the lower frequency. Now I can flip back and forth between the two programs e.g. frequencies with a single button press, the lower frequency giving me improved target ID vs the higher frequency.

 

[Theppgcowboy]

Thanks for the responses. I cherry picked a small park for the second time the other day. I am trying to go by tones but still look at the display. 64 nickel, 86 penny, 91 dime, 95/6 quarter. 12khz. The only trash I dug was 4 square can tabs and 3 bottle caps. I called them too. On the two days I dug 90+ quarters, 80+ dimes, 30+ nickels and passed up the penny signals but dug a dozen to confirm my suspicions, total time 5 hours. I found one gold filled ring it displayed a 91 and sounded real good.
I did a card like you did charlesupstateny, and did not realize I had the normalization on, ya, I just thought, hmmmm. So I will do it again.
I will be going back soon to find the deeper targets, and use the hf coil.
As a note this small park has minimal trash. My property at places is a dumping ground for bottle caps.
Love the dues so far, and was wondering about this setting.

 

[Txop]

I was researching the ID Norm and found this thread. I am a bit confused and want to make a couple of observations/questions.

I have only had my machine a couple of weeks so I am really new. I saw others say pick the tones you want and stick with it. So after having a Minelab Explorer and Sovereign in the past I decided to go with full tones and I like it. At the same time I set ID NORM to on. Seemed like the logical thing to do. I did notice the numbers bunched up towards the top and that brings up a question. Why did they normalize to the 18khz frequency instead of one of the lower frequencies where the spread in TID's are greater? I would have gone with the 4khz to normalize to. Must be a reason?

Then I saw CTTodd's 5 tone program tonight. At this point I had only use full tones so I had never used tone breaks. This is where all the confusion started. I noticed that he sets the ID Norm to OFF. So that means to me that depending on the frequency selected you will get different TID's for the same object at different frequencies. Is that correct?? If that is correct then I am thinking with ID Norm off you would have to have different programs saved with the tone breaks set for the different TIDs because the same object would have different TIDs depending on the frequency. Todd says to use 7khz for the LF coil so I assume that the TID's he provides are for that frequency. The he says for the HF coil to use 28khz using, I guess, the same TID's in the tone breaks. I don't see how that would work for the HF coils since the TID's are totally different than the LF TID's. Do you see why I am confused?? I am sure I am missing something simple.

Finally I noticed that the OPTION items under the main menu are at the high level for the detector and not saved in the programs. So if you set ID NORM on for full tones the way I have been using the detector then I would have to remember to turn them off when using programs like Todds that us 2T, 3T, 5T, etc. I really consider this a bug. Here is why I say this. When you get down to the profile menu it has 2 items in it. One is GRAPHIC and the other is ID NORM. The graphic setting (horseshoe or x,y) is saved by program but the ID NORM setting is not. I did a lot of turning the remote on and off and switching programs to see this. I am on V4.0. Does your act this way?

IMO all TID's show normalize out to the widest spread on all coils and not even be an option. I know a lot of you just look at the XP as what I call a "beeper" and say the ID is not that good but from what I can tell it's not really that bad. Yes, it accuracy at depth is not as good and it jumps around at depth but they all do that.

Comments?

I am running V4.0


In summary:
- how would you ever set up a set of tone breaks that would work for all frequencies?
- Why is the ID Norm setting not saved? I have the basic program changed to full tones and saved in slot 11. I put Todds program in slot 12. Since the ID Norm is not save I have to go into the Profile options and change it each time I switch programs. I think that's a bug since they save the other settings in that menu.

 

[vferrari]

I was researching the ID Norm and found this thread. I am a bit confused and want to make a couple of observations/questions.

I have only had my machine a couple of weeks so I am really new. I saw others say pick the tones you want and stick with it. So after having a Minelab Explorer and Sovereign in the past I decided to go with full tones and I like it. At the same time I set ID NORM to on. Seemed like the logical thing to do. I did notice the numbers bunched up towards the top and that brings up a question. Why did they normalize to the 18khz frequency instead of one of the lower frequencies where the spread in TID's are greater? I would have gone with the 4khz to normalize to. Must be a reason?

Then I saw CTTodd's 5 tone program tonight. At this point I had only use full tones so I had never used tone breaks. This is where all the confusion started. I noticed that he sets the ID Norm to OFF. So that means to me that depending on the frequency selected you will get different TID's for the same object at different frequencies. Is that correct?? If that is correct then I am thinking with ID Norm off you would have to have different programs saved with the tone breaks set for the different TIDs because the same object would have different TIDs depending on the frequency. Todd says to use 7khz for the LF coil so I assume that the TID's he provides are for that frequency. The he says for the HF coil to use 28khz using, I guess, the same TID's in the tone breaks. I don't see how that would work for the HF coils since the TID's are totally different than the LF TID's. Do you see why I am confused?? I am sure I am missing something simple.

Finally I noticed that the OPTION items under the main menu are at the high level for the detector and not saved in the programs. So if you set ID NORM on for full tones the way I have been using the detector then I would have to remember to turn them off when using programs like Todds that us 2T, 3T, 5T, etc. I really consider this a bug. Here is why I say this. When you get down to the profile menu it has 2 items in it. One is GRAPHIC and the other is ID NORM. The graphic setting (horseshoe or x,y) is saved by program but the ID NORM setting is not. I did a lot of turning the remote on and off and switching programs to see this. I am on V4.0. Does your act this way?

IMO all TID's show normalize out to the widest spread on all coils and not even be an option. I know a lot of you just look at the XP as what I call a "beeper" and say the ID is not that good but from what I can tell it's not really that bad. Yes, it accuracy at depth is not as good and it jumps around at depth but they all do that.

Comments?

I am running V4.0


In summary:
- how would you ever set up a set of tone breaks that would work for all frequencies?
- Why is the ID Norm setting not saved? I have the basic program changed to full tones and saved in slot 11. I put Todds program in slot 12. Since the ID Norm is not save I have to go into the Profile options and change it each time I switch programs. I think that's a bug since they save the other settings in that menu.

I'll make an attempt here.

First question: Why ID Norm normalized at 18 khz, because that is the frequency of choice in Europe and especially the UK where they use the Deus to to primarily hunt hammered silver coins and small gold relics and their ground is not highly mineralized. 18 khz is the best frequency for these targets and conditions when you have the LF coil. The HF coil is actually better for this type of detecting, but that's another story. In the US, it would have been ideal if XP had let us set the preferred normalization frequency is we were going to use ID norm. I personally would have used 8 khz or 12 khz as the normalization frequency. Note that the HF coils do not allow you to select ID Normalization, what you see is what you get.

Second Question: What about Multi-Tones and breakpoints. If ID Norm is off, then don't you need different tone breakpoints for each frequency? That is correct. As a matter of fact, that is one of the advantages of multi-tones vs. full tones. You can set up separate programs for each frequency with multi-tone breakpoints suitable for the frequency you are using and still be able to use tricks associated with switching frequencies on the fly to interrogate a target with ID norm off. For full tones, you cannot set breakpoints, so if ID norm is off, the tone breaks will be different, depending on what frequency you are using. You can only address this by using ID Norm and an LF coil (again since ID Norm is not an option with the HF coil).

Does ID Norm stick with the programs. It does stick. If I start a custom program edit and save the program with ID Norm off in the profile before I save it, then it will stick whenever you use that program.

Regarding Target ID # accuracy. It is accurate to a point, but sometimes people get a little too wrapped up in the precise number. I am listening for a tone, when I get that tone, then I glance at the target ID and get a general idea of what the target is by the number range and how stable the number is. I do not care if the number is 90 or 92. Not a hit on the Deus, just do not really get to far into the weeds calculating specific target IDs for specific targets.

Hope that helps. I suspect you will have more questions, so fire away.

 

[Txop]

Thanks for you replies.

I believe you need to take a look at ID Norm again. Or maybe me But I can't get it to say in a PROGRAM. Let's say, as in my case I have a program saved in slot 11 with ID NORM on and another program in slot 12 with ID NORM off. When you change back amd forth between the programs using the plus and minus keys it does not change. It acts like a Global change. Please play with it a little more and let me know if yours really saves it. Mine doesn't. I think I read you are on 4.1 beta. I am on V4. Fixed in Beta??

As far as the frequency for normalization it's just a set of numbers. Don't think of the numbers tied to a frequency. IMO they should have picked a set of numbers for TID that had a wide spread and then made the program map to these common numbers no matter the frequency.. Again, IMO, the Deus use a poor implementation for TID's at the moment. Maybe they will change it later. All frequencies should map to the same TID's. This is probably more important to a coin shooter.

Anyway, please let me know for sure if you ID Norm saves at the program level. Mine does not.

Thanks

 

[Tedyoh]

Thanks for you replies.

I believe you need to take a look at ID Norm again. Or maybe me But I can't get it to say in a PROGRAM. Let's say, as in my case I have a program saved in slot 11 with ID NORM on and another program in slot 12 with ID NORM off. When you change back amd forth between the programs using the plus and minus keys it does not change. It acts like a Global change. Please play with it a little more and let me know if yours really saves it. Mine doesn't. I think I read you are on 4.1 beta. I am on V4. Fixed in Beta??

As far as the frequency for normalization it's just a set of numbers. Don't think of the numbers tied to a frequency. IMO they should have picked a set of numbers for TID that had a wide spread and then made the program map to these common numbers no matter the frequency.. Again, IMO, the Deus use a poor implementation for TID's at the moment. Maybe they will change it later. All frequencies should map to the same TID's. This is probably more important to a coin shooter.

Anyway, please let me know for sure if you ID Norm saves at the program level. Mine does not.

Thanks

ID Norm on/off I think is under configuration, which means it's either on or off for all programs, stock and custom.

 

[Txop]

Tedyoh,

You would think that is the way it might be but the Graphic option is there also and it's saved at the program level. The ID Norm needs to be saved also or it will get real confusing if you use both in different programs. As it is now you will have to have a good memory and switch them manually.

Certainly I am not the only one using TID's? Until tonight I was just using full tones and would have never seen this if I hadn't tried to use CTTODD's program.

 

[Tedyoh]

I just checked it.....when you change ID Norm it's applied to all programs....you can not run Basic 1 with ID Norm off and switch to a custom that you previously had set to ID Norm On....it will get switched to off, even though you made that change in Basic 1 and not your custom program

 

[vferrari]

Yeah, TXOP, i will check that when I put my LF coil back on. It doesn't apply to the HF coil so I don't pay much attention to it since I use HF almost exclusively now. I am NOT using Beta 4.1. I am using 4.0. Do not use any XP betas based on their poor configuration control. I am not sure XP can do any better on TID programming vs. frequency it is either normalized or not, at least they give you a choice on LF even though I like it being normalized to 18 khz. The only other detector I know where you can wholesale change frequencies (other than the simultaneous multi-frequency Minelabs) is the Nokta Impact (and soon the Minelab Equinox) and I do not know what they do with respect to TID and frequency.

I am not sure how you are verifying whether ID Norm is saved, but the best way to check it is by saving one program in a slot with ID Norm off when you save it. Make sure the frequency is at something other than 18 khz, say 8 khz. Turn ID Norm ON in the global menu and then CREATE the identical program from a base program and save it. Then take a nickel scan it with the first program, then scan it with the second program if the Target ID increases with the second program that means that ID NORM OFF stuck on the first program and ID NORM ON stuck with the second program.

P.S. I guess the above doesn't work based on Ted's test, I will have to try this and will verify.

 

[Txop]

Yeah, TXOP, i will check that when I put my LF coil back on. It doesn't apply to the HF coil so I don't pay much attention to it since I use HF almost exclusively now. I am NOT using Beta 4.1. I am using 4.0. Do not use any XP betas based on their poor configuration control. I am not sure XP can do any better on TID programming vs. frequency it is either normalized or not, at least they give you a choice on LF even though I like it being normalized to 18 khz. The only other detector I know where you can wholesale change frequencies (other than the simultaneous multi-frequency Minelabs) is the Nokta Impact (and soon the Minelab Equinox) and I do not know what they do with respect to TID and frequency.

I am not sure how you are verifying whether ID Norm is saved, but the best way to check it is by saving one program in a slot with ID Norm off when you save it. Make sure the frequency is at something other than 18 khz, say 8 khz. Turn ID Norm ON in the global menu and then CREATE the identical program from a base program and save it. Then take a nickel scan it with the first program, then scan it with the second program if the Target ID increases with the second program that means that ID NORM OFF stuck on the first program and ID NORM ON stuck with the second program.

as far as the normalization it's just some code. My X-terra for instance uses the same TID for a quarter no matter what frequency coil I put on it. It's not hard to do. Also not that big a deal.

As far as my test for the ID NORM. Please try this. Put a program in a memory with the ID norm ON. Then save another program or the same one with ID Norm turned OFF. Use the plus and minus keys to change between the programs. When you chance go in the options menu/configurration/profiles/ID norm and note that it's on/off as you set that memory. Then backout and change to the other program. It was save opposite the first. After you change it go to the ID Norm setting again and see if it changed. Mine does not. It's still set the way the other program had it. Really just globally. I don't believe it's saving anything for ID NORM. It's just set to however it was when you last turn the machine off. I have not actually tried to see how the machines acts. I will but that would really be strange if for instance it's on when it really says off.

Does this make since?? Maybe I am not doing a good job of explaining it.

BTW, I am not complaining by any means. I am just trying to figure out my new toy

 

[Txop]

Tedyoh,

Thanks for checking.

That is exactly what I am seeing here. I call it a bug because you are not detecting with the settings you thought you saved. As I said they do save the Graphic option under the Profile selection. They just failed to save ID NORM.

Is there any place to report stuff like this?

 

[Tedyoh]

My 2 cents is keep it off for reasons other mentioned

 

[Txop]

My 2 cents is keep it off for reasons other mentioned

I'll give that some thought but for now I plan on leaving it on and using full tones. For the LF coil it will work as I would expect it to. Same TID's on all frequencies.

For the LF coil this only becomes an issue for tone breaks. I was on another forum and saw where Calabash mentioned CTTodd's program. I had not heard of that so I did a search and found it. As I entered the program I saw that his tone breaks would not work across all frequencies. He says to use 7khz for the LF coil so I must assume that he defined the breaks on the TID's for that frequency. What I don't understand is he says to use 28khz if you have a HF coil. The problem there is the same tone breaks won't work because the TID's will be different.

I still keep hoping I am missing something here. If you leave ID NORM off as everyone suggest then you would have to put the same program in memory for each frequency you want to use that program on. This whole discussion is another good reason to stick with full tones and ID Norm on. It's the only way you will get the same audio and ID's when moving the program between frequencies.

In the case of Todd's program or any similar you run the risk of getting different tones for the same object when you switch frequencies. So either way, hunting by tones or by TID's, you won't get consistency for either way. Something to think about especially if you have the LF and HF coils. The same program has a high probability of giving different tones and id's depending on the frequency.

Thanks again guys for your comments.

 

[Tedyoh]

I see your points but in my opinion the Deus is a relic machine made to find non ferrous targets around iron....so you can take the same button or same 3 cent piece, put them in different ferrous item senarios and you will get a different tone and ID every time....i dig on tone...the scale is just a curiosity I will look at....also not familiar with The Todd program but running in 28khz will push most non ferrous targets above 65 on the TDI scale.

 

[Txop]

I see your points but in my opinion the Deus is a relic machine made to find non ferrous targets around iron....so you can take the same button or same 3 cent piece, put them in different ferrous item senarios and you will get a different tone and ID every time....i dig on tone...the scale is just a curiosity I will look at....also not familiar with The Todd program but running in 28khz will push most non ferrous targets above 65 on the TDI scale.

I can see your point but I think it is also a great coin machine. I mainly hunt in trashy parks. I think the Deus can really shine there also. Take a look at the "sifter" program. There is also a rare video of Calabash coin hunting using that program. What it on youtube and you will see what it can do on coins. The Deus using that program unmasks targets like no other coin machine I have owned. To do the same thing with my Xterra for instance I would have to constantly change from my larger DD coil to my 6 inch DD coil. With the Deus and the right settings you can do it all with the one coil. For my kind of hunting that is.

I have just never wanted to relic hunt. Not saying I wouldn't but just never had the opportunity. Anyway watch his video and you will see why it makes a great coin machine also.

 

[vferrari]

When making a pure dig/non-dig decision, how important is the TID accuracy? The answer to that question will guide you as to how important it is to get the tone breaks just so. For me the answer is, "not that important" vs.seeing how the the target ID and tone responds to a change in frequency and/or discrimination. That is why I set up identical programs side-by-side with the only difference being frequency and/or disc setting so I can quickly +/- between programs and interrogate the target. Much more important, to me, than the actual target ID number displayed in the first place. Just how I use the Deus. This approach helped when I transitioned the hf coil where there is no ID norm.

 

[Txop]

vferrari,

I agree with you totally. I think I said before we still have our Shadow X2's that was our first detector way back. It just beeped and we dug everything. We found a lot more jewelry. Then the TID machines started getting more accurate so we went that way. Our finds went way down. Since I got the Deus I started digging everything that is non-ferrous and repeatable. I am hoping my finds go up.

What I was trying to point out though, is that if you leave ID Norm "off" you need to consider that the TID will be different from one frequency to another. If you use tone breaks this may or may not be important to you.

What I know for sure is that by mid week it's going to be in the low 70's here and we are going hunting somewhere.