Interresting story on Civil War wreck

[bigkid4]

Interesting how they are finally getting around to the conservation 50 years after the fact. Make sure you read all three pages.

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20120131/ARTICLES/120139971&tc=ix

 

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[Galleon Hunter]

Big Kid...and your point is? Conservation cost money. Most of the major artifacts like the Enfield rifles, bayonetts, swords, were conserved at the time. The stuff that wasn't includes thousands of nails, tacks, and a variety of other small objects. I'm not saying these aren't important, but nevertheless, I think such was often the case back in the early days of Scuba diving. In a perfect world everything should have been conserved, but we don't live in a perfect world. People just didn't know back then what we know today. Look at how many cannons were recovered in the Florida Keys and just left along the roadside. Sure they looked cool for a while, but without proper preservation eventually crumble to dust. There have been tremendous advancements in conservation over the past 20-25 years.

It is a shame these artifacts have been sitting in wet storage for 50 years, but don't think the article does justice to what types of artifacts they are...relatively common items. At the same time, think this is quite common practice. I know an old treasure hunter who pulled up some anchors and cannons off a wreck 30 years ago...they are still sitting in a canal behind his house.

The article fails to mention how and by whom the bulk of the artifacts were recovered. Once recovered, you can't just put them back on the wreck. This recovery happened pre-NC Underwater Archaeology Unit. Still, many of the artifacts were conserved. The collection was studied... Publications were generated including the outstanding work The Blockade Runner Modern Greece and Her Cargo by Leslie Bright and many of the artifacts are on display at various museums for the general public to view.

The Modern Greece, Ranger, Condor and other Civil War vessels like the USS Picket, USS Peterhoff, USS Iron Age and others have been used as a training ground for underwater archaeology students at East Carolina for years. I have dove them all and much can still be learned from these wrecks. The USS Peterhoff was actually the first shipwreck to be placed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Anyway, the article is a little misleading.

It is not like everything was hauled up by archaeologist, put in a shed, never conserved, never studied and never again to see the light of day.

Here is some additional information on the Modern Greece:

1862. British iron-hulled screw-propeller steamer Modern Greece, 1,000-tons, owned by Z.C. Pearson & Company, bound for Wilmington carrying a cargo consisting of 1,000 tons of gunpowder, 7,000 Enfield rifles, whiskey, clothing and miscellaneous military and civilian supplies, was run ashore by the U.S.S. Cambridge and U.S.S. Stars and Stripes near New Inlet on June 27. The Modern Greece grounded ? mile north of Federal Point, some 200 yards offshore. The Confederates saved ?enough liquor to keep most of the Fort Fisher garrison in high spirits for more than a week.? They also managed to salvage six Whitworth cannons, 500 stands of arms and a large amount of powder and clothing.
Over the years, the wreck was covered over with sand and nearly forgotten for the next hundred years. However, the ?Good Friday Storm? of 1962, shifted tons of sand and uncovered the wreck. Eleven divers from the Naval Ordnance School at Indian Head, Maryland were on vacation at the time and discovered the exposed shipwreck. By 1963, divers from the U.S. Navy and the North Carolina Department of Archives & History had recovered more than 11,500 artifacts, including about 1,770 rifled muskets, shells, bayonets and bullet molds along with several tons of lead pigs. Many of these artifacts have been preserved and are on display at the Fort Fisher Historic Site, in Kure Beach. Additional artifacts from the Modern Greece can be seen at the Cape Fear Museum in Wilmington, the Southport Maritime Museum in Southport, North Carolina, the Mariner?s Museum in Newport News, Virginia and the Smithsonian Institute in Washington D.C.
The wreck of the Modern Greece lies ? mile offshore about ? mile northeast of Fort Fisher. The surviving hull structure rests on a sand and coquina rock bottom in 30 feet of water. The hull lies parallel to the beach with the bow pointing south. The exposed remains of the blockade runner consist of intact sections and disarticulated fragments of the hull structure and the steamer?s machinery and boiler. (Note: The Z.C. Pearson & Company of Hull, England was one of the most prominent firms to engage in blockade running. The company was owned by Zachariah C. Pearson, the mayor of Hull and a successful shipping merchant with a fleet of vessels that included the steamers Circassian, Modern Greece, Stettin, Lodona, Phoebe, Merrimac and Peterhoff. Pearson entered into an agreement with Caleb Huse to transport military supplies to the Confederate States of America. However, unlike Fraser, Trenholm & Company, whose steamers boasted many successful trips through the blockade and generated immense profits, Pearson and his associates found their efforts to be disastrous. Six of the seven vessels that the Z.C. Pearson sent to run the blockade were captured and the Modern Greece was run ashore.)

 

[bigkid4]

My point is that he who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones. Almost every article I read that is written by an archeologist doesn’t miss a chance to bash anyone who digs a civil war bullet or picks up a broken Indian point. Here they have had thousands of artifacts in their custody for fifty years and they don’t even know what is in the tanks. Not to mention that there has been no effort at conserve, or even what has been stolen.
"Having all that stuff in the back has always bugged me," he said. Don’t you think that is kind of an understatement? These are the same people that are calling me a grave robber.

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Where in the article does it refer to anyone as a "grave robber" Has Mark Wilde-Ramsing ever called you a grave robber? Do you even know Mark Wilde-Ramsing? I know Mark and that isn't anything I have ever heard him say. The people at the North Carolina Underwater archaeology unit have always work with amateurs, volunteer divers, people who find wrecks or artifacts. They are very helpful. You can go to Fort Fisher and look at their shipwreck files, Nathan Henry usually doesn't even mind giving people a "behind the scenes" tour of the conservation lab. Another archaeologists employeed by the North Carolina Division of Archives and History is David Moore. David Moore worked with the Mel Fisher Society on the Henrietta Marie, the circa 1700 slave ship they found off Key West. The only thing I have ever heard him say about working with the late-Mel Fisher is that he "learned a whole lot about shipwrecks" from working with him. Once again, how is this re interpreted as calling someone a grave robber? I've published a bunch of articles. Posted a lot on this forum. No where in any of my writings have I ever refered to someone who digs up artifacts as a "grave robber."

My point is, you are taking someone who in my opinion you have never met (please correct me if I am wrong) and making a generalization. Your catogorical response against archaeologists is no better than what you are alleging they say about you.

You can say about archaeologists the same thing you can say about treasure hunters. There are good archaeologists and there are bad archaeologists, just like there are good treasure hunters and bad treasure hunters, the same pretty much can be said about people.

Is what happened to some of those artifacts right...no, it is a shame, but stop using an unfortunate incident as a rallying cry to continue to make the rift between the two groups greater than it already is. "Oh lookie here, lookie here, see what they are doing, we got them now." It is unfortunate but it is whatr it is. Instead of trying to point out someone's fault and cast blame, think of something that could be done to help with the problem. If you are not part of them solution, you are part of the problem. Have you thought about contacting Mark, Nathan, Julip, or any of the people there and volunteering to help inventory, conserve, photograph, the artifacts in question? Probably not. That would be actually be trying to be part of the solution. They are always underbudgeted and looking for volunteers. They utilized volunteers in the Queen Anne's Revenge project as well.

People need to stop trying to seek out the negative and try to work together for the benefit of everyone involed.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

People need to stop trying to seek out the negative and try to work together for the benefit of everyone involed.

I couldn't agree with you more GH but in my neck of the woods the Archies are the ones that have pushed the UNesco crud onto the politions and such, not the divers, they just don't want to work with us. The next step for them is to start imposing no diving at all restrictions on all wrecks.
And to tell you the truth I am getting sick and tired of archies calling wreck divers grave robbers. I am glad to hear your freind Mark doesn't consider us grave robbers but I am also sure that you have heard other archie types use that term.
ZDD

 

[ScubaFinder]

Well said GH, both sides undoubtedly have flaws! I know both of you guys, and I understand Gary's frustration at continually reading how the dastardly treasure hunters destroy history, and then seeing this story. However, it is far too easy to jump into pointing fingers and furthering the separation between the two like-minded groups.

I think that is what most people fail to keep in mind, we are all very much alike. I can sit down with many degree touting archaeologists and call them friends. The divide between the two groups is perpetuated by old school archaeologists and pirate flag touting treasure hunters pointing fingers and making antiquated accusations at each other.

I understand the archies of old...in their day treasure hunters were dynamiting wrecks and melting down gold artifacts. The government was scrapping cannons and anchors to support the war effort. Every time they looked up, someone else was destroying a wreck that they would like to have studied. I would have been PO'd too. These guys ultimately became the college professors who preachedl the sins of the treasure hunter, and created a new generation of "Holy-er than thou" archies. There are still a few of them around, but the bulk of MODERN archaeologists see that there is not only room for cooperation, but that cooperating would make both sides stronger and more effective. I know that GH here is in that group, because I also call him a friend.

Yes, both sides screw up, run out of money, damage, destroy or even loose artifacts. Yes Gary makes a great point about people who live in glass houses. At the end of the day, what does any of this accomplish other than perpetuating the very problem that we all want to fix. For how long and how many times has this conversation happened? ;-)

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Jason and Gary

I'm not saying there aren't archaeologist who hate treasure hunters with a passion and some do call them such things as grave robbers, etc. Obviously there are people like that.

But making "anti archaeology" or "anti treasure-hunting" statements about one group versus another and lumping everyone into that group is not fair to individuals. Certainly everyone is different and have their own ideas and merits...to make blanket statements saying ALL archaeologists or ALL treasure hunters are this or that is just being very open minded.

I had the great fortune to study under Gordon Watts and one of the things he did while in Bermuda was take us to meet Teddy Tucker. One grad student was dismayed at the very idea and said "but he is a treasure hunter, why would we want to have anything to do with him?" To which Godon replied, "that treasure hunter has found more shipwrecks than you will ever see in your lifetime. Don't ever underestimate what you can learn from someone like him."

To turn your nose up and pooh pooh someone because they don't have a degree is just not very intelligent.

People should work together and learn from each other.

 

[treshuntintom]

Well said Rob.As you know,I had the HONOR & PLEASURE of working with Gordon on that project for the State of Florida a couple years back.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Well GH your words are like a breath of fresh sea air. You guys down in sunny FLA still have a good opportunity to establish the benchmark for THers and Archies to work together for the good of all. I wish I could say the same thing for Nova Scotia and the other Atlantic Canadian Provinces. The laws have just been past and now that they have been put into law turning back time will be next to impossible.
I am not an expert on British laws when it comes to underwater salvage but I understand they have a good set of standards that allow divers and archies to work together. Perhaps Florida can build on that and when it is proven to work other countries like mine will see the errors in their ways and start to reverse the tides of unesco.
ZDD

 

[bigkid4]

No Galleon Hunter neither he nor anyone else has ever personally called me a grave robber and I think you can probably figure that out on your own. My post said that most articles I read by archeologist bash relic or treasure hunters but I know not all of them do. Are there bad relic hunters, yes. I spend way too much time filling their holes. Also losing permission to hunt areas that I had permission to hunt but lost when someone saw me hunting and thought that gave them the right to come back after I left and destroy the place.
I’m finished discussing this on the forum so if you have anything else to say to me personally please do it in a PM. Finally here is another link to the same paper a few weeks ago. Archeologist use a relic club to search for relics then blame relic hunters for the lack of relics. Is what he said true, of course it probably is to a certain extent. The fact is he has no way of telling what was dug, or if anything from the period they were looking for has ever been dug by relic hunters sneaking into the park unless they have caught them, but it just didn’t need to be said.
http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20120107/COLUMNIST/120109764?tc=ar