Is it the detector, or the operator that matters most (and other noob questions)?

[Flounder]

Hi all,

New here, and just getting into metal detecting. A few weeks ago I bought a cheapy md, a BH Tracker IV to see if I'd like the hobby and if it would "take". Turns out I love it, and I'm clearly already addicted in spite of my meager BH, and even more meager finds to date.

After tons of reading and research, as well as a long chat with the local White's dealer, I am at the frazzle point on what my first "real" machine should be on my budget. I am even at the frazzle point on what my budget actually is (put the entire budget into just the detector and get as much detector as I can, go a bit cheaper on the unit and plan for the extras right off the bat - good headphones, pinpointer, scoop, etc).

I can't seem to get a good handle on what is actually a good machine for the price, and how much it comes down to how you use it rather than the features you rely on. My dad (used to md, but hasn't in a long time) says don't sweat the expensive machines, it's the user that counts (assuming you have a fairly decent proven machine of whatever brand). He found a lot of good stuff over the years. A lot of others seem to look down on the entry level/slightly above entry level machines (like the Coinmaster GT for example), opining that it's not as real a machine as brand/model XXX, and you need feature XXX and, for gods sakes depth! My question is, can you get "good" on a Coinmaster GT (again, for example), and do as well as those with more expensive machines? I don't necessarily mean comparing a $400 machine to a $1500 machine, but I do mean to compare a $400 machine to a $800 machine.

I have been involved in my life in other specialty hobbies/pastimes, and I have found that often the same sort of debate applies - gear vs skill. I have always done well in my other endeavors by taking the skill and learning the craft over relying on the gear as my be all/end all. Can md'ing be the same way? Here's where I'm at:

Budget - $500ish if I want to buy somewhat soon, $700ish if I decide to wait a month or more.

Machines - Coinmaster GT. Local dealer and MD guru tells me that for my area and my level, the GT is the way to go. He appears to have the knowledge base (very impressive museum quality shop filled with awesome finds spanning 40 years), and even though he sells higher priced units to up sell me on, he recommends the GT for me. I can't imagine with his operation that the meager margin on the Coinmaster GT vs the lower Coinmasters is his motivating driver for recommending to me this unit. He seems sincere and I have no reason to doubt his expertise. I also don't know if he is simply looking out for me by putting me into an entry level unit, which I may not necessarily want to be the case.

AT Pro. It's all over the map regarding this machine, good bad and ugly. I am at a loss.

M6. Read nothing but good things here, but not so much as to the "why"? Does it find more? Do more? Go deeper? Does deep depth matter that much in reality? If I shoot the wad on this machine, it'll take a while to buy accessories. I would in all likelihood not be able to get the pinpointer for awhile, nor headphones (I'd have to do what I'm doing now, ipod headphones in an adaptor). I could get the scoop at the time of purchase, but nothing else. Honestly I would be stretching it a bit to even get this machine at it's price, even with the longer wait time.

Others units - Have not done any research yet, still wading through the three I mentioned, as well my price point and what it actually is including everything needed.

My intended hunting area will be the beach in Maryland for the most part (OC), but I do travel the entire region frequently (due to my job), so I do plan on other hunting that is not beach hunting. The things I want to find are jewelry (duh), as well as coins and especially local shipwreck items that wash in/get churned up during the storms here. I will be out during both the day and night on any given session. Night detecting really appeals to me, at least on the beach.

I'm leaning at the moment towards the GT, as I could swing that plus the needed accessories in one shot and have it in a week, but I don't want to make the mistake I have often made in the past which is spending more than I should by buying the wrong thing then quickly changing to another.

Thanks in advance for any insight and advice offered, it is much appreciated!

Flounder

 

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[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

Most of it is luck, you just keep going at it with the detector you have and you will become one with your detector, you will know what it is telling you. Try doing research on good local sites for you to detect. Go to parks and school yards to get practice, only go to the school yards when school is not in session. I have no idea on what detector to recemend to you.

 

[ryaan21]

I have had 2 of the machines you listed. The AT PRO is functionally a great detector. Sounds off on coins like no other machine I have ever used. Frequency is a little high in my opinion, especially considering they put out the AT GOLD, but it is what it is. The bad part about the AT PRO is the fact that it feels cheap. Breaks easy. And they have had issues with quality control. Much like the Pro Pointer, I think sometimes in the haste to fill orders, crap get released. If they would lower the frequency to about 5khz or make it a 2 frequency machine and then beef up the physical quality of the machine I think they would sell a ton more. Would I buy it again? No. The problems with the machine combined with MY OWN experience with Garretts customer service would make me choose another brand. I also owned the Coinmaster GT. I only used it for a partial season. My issues with that machine are the tone set up. Spotty tone AND number id. If I remember correctly it was 1 tone or 9 tones. I could be wrong on that but that is the way I remember it. It might have just been the soil here but even on a silver quarter I found only like 3 inches deep, it was nice signal I guess but not a "sure digger" for what it ended up being. In my opinion you should look at some nice used machines. The old Fisher machines are good and really well known for depth. You could get a Coinstrike and some coils for what you would spend on a new machine with no extras. Or you could look at teknetics, they seem cheaply built but I had 3 different models and wish I had hung on to them. They are deep and sensitive, a little to sensitive in some cases, but they can be found cheap in the used market. The main thing is practice and keep your chin up even when you get skunked. You could have a multi thousand dollar machine and if you dont practice, you wont find much.


*edit* and for some reason the website made all my paragraphs a wall of text......oh wells sorry bout that.

 

[Terry Soloman]

This is my OPINION: Your first mistake is listening to a Whites dealer. There are many GREAT machines in your price range including Whites; Tesoro; Garrett; Fisher; Minelab; etc, etc. When you say "beach" detecting, keep in mind that you will do GREAT in DRY SAND at a saltwater beach, but once you move into the WET SAND, you are going to lose lots of depth and sensitivity with a single-frequency VLF metal detector. The wet saltwater sand and water is the domain of multi-frequency VLF and pulse induction metal detectors.

Do yourself a favor and look at other brands of detectors like the Tesoro Cibola; Tesoro Vaquero; Minelab X-Terra 305; Minelab X-Terra 505; the Fisher F4 and F70. As I said, none of these machines are going to be great in wet ocean sand, but they all beat the crap out of a Whites Coinmaster. Check out these two videos I put together, and I hope this helps you:

 

[airscapes]

Take a ride up to Gettysburg and vist Don at Gettysburg Electronics
He has ALL the major brands and has been doing this for 40 years, super nice guy,talked with him on the phone and purchased some things. Bad thing is you will pay PA sales tax if you buy from him but you can put your hands on all of them.
I have the GT but have not used it in wet sand, and yes 9 tones but I happen to like the nine tones, I can tell a bottle cap from a coin with no problem. You have to dig a lot of trash to lean the sound the machine makes when it finds certain objects. Yes it sounds like an 80s video game, but that does not bother me. One think I will suggest if you plan to hut land and that is the Whites TRX pin pointer. For beach you are going to need to spend about $150 on a scoop if you want to do wet sand, which I have not done yet.. and probably won't.
I will PM you my cell number if you want to talk about the CM GT and what I have leaned over the past few months.

 

[AQUA]

Ya...if you plan on beach hunting--which sounds like you do---- you will need a saltwater machine.... you will be OK in the dry sand...but they never cuts it as you will always be looking at -- the other side of the fence which is always greener--- ie wet sand. And in this case it is greener as new stuff gets washed in with tides/storms.

But new saltwater machines aren,t cheep.... but used can be a option.

I got a SandShark --- great working and easy to use.... but I bought another salt machine CZ21.....much more power and deeper no doubt about it.

So yes more expensive machines do make a difference....not all the user. There so many different applications when hunting..like ground conditions..if hunting flat sand then SandShark vs CZ 21 is not a huge different...depending on depth of targets.

If your hunting rocky beaches.. then the extrea power of the CZ 21 makes a huge difference as the coil will be 6 inches from the ground a lot.

I can go on forever...... just need to make BEST choice as you can..and upgrade later if you feel the need.

 

[Frankn]

All right, let's be sensible about this. You can't do one without the other. If you are just starting out with a starter detector, sure you can skim the surface and find a few things, but if you have years of experience and a top of the line detector, you can find almost anything that is down there. If you have a 2 box and years of experience, you can find almost anything you walk over that is bigger than a softball. It's the combined experience and technology that counts pure and simple. You can spit out all this bull about an experience guy with a cheap detector can find anything and it ain't going to happen. You can spit out all this bull about a new guy making great finds with a high line detector and it ain't going to happen. Hay, that's how I see it, REALITY! Frank... OK, now for the detector. This is based on years of experience working the beaches from Va to De and that includes OC and the Indian River Inlet. You can't beat a PI detector peroid! I have been using a 13 year old Whites Surfmaster PI and have found diamond/gold rings at 10", fine gold chains at several inches and boat anchors at 3+' . You can pick up one used for under $400 if you look around. For general park, yard, etc, I use a 13 year old Whites XLT. It has fantastic programs and you can set anything in it. It will go down about 2' on large items and it is the best pinpointing detector in the world. You can pinpoint with it then touch the object with a probe. You can pick one up used for about $300+ . For cache hunting I use an old Hays 2 Box that I picked up used for $250. It will go over 6' for a softball size target. Yes, I do a lot of cache hunting. Good luck on whatever you choose. Frank...

Found this with the PI at Indian River Inlet. The guy with the CZ in front of me walked right over it.

 

[Flounder]

Thank you all very much for the replies! I really appreciate the insight. A salt water machine makes sense, as I will be beach detecting 98% of the time in all likelihood.

Frank - Regarding the older units, you feel as though their technology is still relevant enough to buy, but do you have a "cut off" point age wise on the units you mentioned where it would no longer make sense to buy? What would I look for/look out for in the used market on something like what you mentioned? Also want to ask about tones on those machines, can you "learn" the tones well enough to not dig a super high amount of trash or do you dig everything on a machine like that?

Aqua - It's mostly flat sand around here, I will look further into the SandShark (just did a quick skim, seems like the price might be in line with my budget).

Terry - Thank you for the vids, I will watch them after I hit send on this post.

 

[Flounder]

Ah, forgot to mention another wrinkle - I may have access to a Coinmaster Pro via a family member (Wife's nephew got one two years ago as a gift, never used it and I may be able to borrow it indefinitely, which would be great), and my dad left me a message today that he thinks he has some model of Fisher, minus the coil, at his warehouse. He said I should go search and see if it's there. He can't remember the model or any details on it, or if it's even still there (he's a few states away from the warehouse, but I am close and have a key).

The plot thickens I guess...

 

[wingmaster]

If your going to get a whites detector don't be afraid to get a good used one, just check it out real good and make sure it works. If you ever need to send it in to have it repaired whites doesn't charge much to fix one and they fix some of their very old detectors, I'm not sure if other companies will work on the older machines like whites will. HH

 

[airscapes]

Ah, forgot to mention another wrinkle - I may have access to a Coinmaster Pro via a family member (Wife's nephew got one two years ago as a gift, never used it and I may be able to borrow it indefinitely, which would be great), and my dad left me a message today that he thinks he has some model of Fisher, minus the coil, at his warehouse. He said I should go search and see if it's there. He can't remember the model or any details on it, or if it's even still there (he's a few states away from the warehouse, but I am close and have a key).

The plot thickens I guess...

Keep in mind the CM Pro is not the same as the GT. The GT was new in 2012 and was basically the Prizim 6t that was discontinued. The GT is completely different inside than the CM pro..

 

[Flounder]

Thanks, I do remember reading that in my research. The difference seems to be the auto balance, backlight and beach mode (and other stuff I am sure I am missing). I did confirm that I can borrow the CM pro, so I will either have it tonight if I decide to hike it across the bay bridge, or Wednesday when I am over there on jobs. How does one get over that feeling like they are missing all the treasure in the lead time before buying Mr. Right Machine? lol...

 

[Frankn]

Flounder, it looks like the eyes are shifting, lol

Frank - Regarding the older units, you feel as though their technology is still relevant enough to buy, but do you have a "cut off" point age wise on the units you mentioned where it would no longer make sense to buy? What would I look for/look out for in the used market on something like what you mentioned? Also want to ask about tones on those machines, can you "learn" the tones well enough to not dig a super high amount of trash or do you dig everything on a machine like that?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Eagle was the start of the new line of computerized detectors from Whites. The XLT came next. It has an open architecture. That is you can adjust just about anything in it. All the newer detectors are basicly built on the XLT base. Bells and whistles have been added but I can find anything that a newer Whites general purpose detector can find. My hearing is not to good, but I can tell iron from good targets. The screen gives an ID# and bar graph reading plus a symbol. I dig all targets until I get a pattern. Say I am in an area with a lot of shell casings. I will dig the first and then I have it's ID# so I can skip the rest. When there is a quarter down there, the XLT will indicate quarter every time. Using the depth and tone, you can pinpoint to the center of the loop, then push a probe down in the center of the coil and touch the target. I don't know any other detector that accurate on locating targets. With some other detectors, that are newer, you have to wiggle the coil and guess the location.
Hay, I picked up more than $3K with the XLT just last year.

---------------------------------------------------
Now for the beach, I would not go on it without a PI detector!!!! I actually prefer the older Whites Surfmaster PI that has the pulse delay. I have followed other people with other brands on the beach and pulled targets like that gold chain right out of there footprints. It will even find coins in black magnetic sand. At Lweis De, I pulled a 2Euro out of a black sand patch near the inlet at the end of the beach. Just trying to help, Frank...

 

[Flounder]

Thanks Frank, the insight is much appreciated

Please let me know if you ever feel like giving a lesson or two on a hunt together locally. I'd love to get some pointers out in the field under real world conditions.

 

[LM]

A lot of it is definition. A "good treasure hunter" is, before everything else, an intelligent and deliberate selector of sites. In this regard, a "good treasure hunter" with a Tesoro Compadre would absolutely out-perform a rookie with a $2000 Minelab who kept wandering around the same couple parks and playgrounds. With that said, this is a hobby does register very high on the 'gear performance' scale where the gear itself does play a major role in the outcome.

Car racing, metal detecting, things of that nature are heavy on mechanical performance.
A great driver with a crappy car will lose to a crappy driver with a great car. Things like golf, bowling, shooting sports, examples where gear plays a relevant role, but skill is the dominating factor.

A great golfer with crappy clubs will absolutely shoot lower than a crappy golfer with great clubs.

You have stuff like playing an instrument or woodworking, those are things where skill tends to heavily outweigh the 'tools' even though a few low-skill 'hobbyists' feel like they've achieved something by purchasing pro grade stuff (the guy who hoards 30 guitars even though he's a terrible guitar player, or the guy who makes basic wood projects but smugly insists that his Lie Nielsen tools are critically important)

Assuming two TH'ers of equal skill in terms of site selection and the 'pre hunt' planning stages, the machine can make a difference. Really, though, the 'advantage' offered by one machine over the other can be overstated, particularly by sellers.

 

[Old Dude]

When it's all said and done, if the operator of a top of the line detector does not know what that high tone means and isn't inquisitive enough to find out, he may as well be swinging a Chinese knockoff.

 

[Flounder]

What do you guys think of the Excalibur II for my intended hunting areas (mostly beach, some land)? After a day of reading (and a few hours with the BH, found clad quarter at the water line, one clad dime 5 yards from the waterline, and a clad penny in the upper shell line - yay!), I am wondering about just waiting and saving for a serious piece of equipment. I will be borrowing the Coinmaster Pro for free as long as I want it come Wednesday, so I can have some fun in the mean time and saving up and waiting is more of an option now. Any insight on how well the EXII does on dry land? Also, I surf here in MD year round, and I already own a wetsuit capable of allowing me to get in the water year round, does anyone know about any temperature limitations on fully submersible machines? Thanks again in advance for the insight.

 

[MuckyBottles]

Hi all,

New here, and just getting into metal detecting. A few weeks ago I bought a cheapy md, a BH Tracker IV to see if I'd like the hobby and if it would "take". Turns out I love it, and I'm clearly already addicted in spite of my meager BH, and even more meager finds to date.

After tons of reading and research, as well as a long chat with the local White's dealer, I am at the frazzle point on what my first "real" machine should be on my budget. I am even at the frazzle point on what my budget actually is (put the entire budget into just the detector and get as much detector as I can, go a bit cheaper on the unit and plan for the extras right off the bat - good headphones, pinpointer, scoop, etc).

I can't seem to get a good handle on what is actually a good machine for the price, and how much it comes down to how you use it rather than the features you rely on. My dad (used to md, but hasn't in a long time) says don't sweat the expensive machines, it's the user that counts (assuming you have a fairly decent proven machine of whatever brand). He found a lot of good stuff over the years. A lot of others seem to look down on the entry level/slightly above entry level machines (like the Coinmaster GT for example), opining that it's not as real a machine as brand/model XXX, and you need feature XXX and, for gods sakes depth! My question is, can you get "good" on a Coinmaster GT (again, for example), and do as well as those with more expensive machines? I don't necessarily mean comparing a $400 machine to a $1500 machine, but I do mean to compare a $400 machine to a $800 machine.

I have been involved in my life in other specialty hobbies/pastimes, and I have found that often the same sort of debate applies - gear vs skill. I have always done well in my other endeavors by taking the skill and learning the craft over relying on the gear as my be all/end all. Can md'ing be the same way? Here's where I'm at:

Budget - $500ish if I want to buy somewhat soon, $700ish if I decide to wait a month or more.

Machines - Coinmaster GT. Local dealer and MD guru tells me that for my area and my level, the GT is the way to go. He appears to have the knowledge base (very impressive museum quality shop filled with awesome finds spanning 40 years), and even though he sells higher priced units to up sell me on, he recommends the GT for me. I can't imagine with his operation that the meager margin on the Coinmaster GT vs the lower Coinmasters is his motivating driver for recommending to me this unit. He seems sincere and I have no reason to doubt his expertise. I also don't know if he is simply looking out for me by putting me into an entry level unit, which I may not necessarily want to be the case.

AT Pro. It's all over the map regarding this machine, good bad and ugly. I am at a loss.

M6. Read nothing but good things here, but not so much as to the "why"? Does it find more? Do more? Go deeper? Does deep depth matter that much in reality? If I shoot the wad on this machine, it'll take a while to buy accessories. I would in all likelihood not be able to get the pinpointer for awhile, nor headphones (I'd have to do what I'm doing now, ipod headphones in an adaptor). I could get the scoop at the time of purchase, but nothing else. Honestly I would be stretching it a bit to even get this machine at it's price, even with the longer wait time.

Others units - Have not done any research yet, still wading through the three I mentioned, as well my price point and what it actually is including everything needed.

My intended hunting area will be the beach in Maryland for the most part (OC), but I do travel the entire region frequently (due to my job), so I do plan on other hunting that is not beach hunting. The things I want to find are jewelry (duh), as well as coins and especially local shipwreck items that wash in/get churned up during the storms here. I will be out during both the day and night on any given session. Night detecting really appeals to me, at least on the beach.

I'm leaning at the moment towards the GT, as I could swing that plus the needed accessories in one shot and have it in a week, but I don't want to make the mistake I have often made in the past which is spending more than I should by buying the wrong thing then quickly changing to another.

Thanks in advance for any insight and advice offered, it is much appreciated!

Flounder

Imho, its 98% Research, 1% detector and 1% you. I have seen people with 1970's retro MD's tripling the performance of the "Minelab Cowboys" and there $2500.00 machines. Its all relative. Put the research in and you will be rewarded. Don't expect the machine to do all the work, its on you.