Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Matthew Roberts]

cactusjumper,

Finding the exact location of mines filed on 132 years ago can be challenging I agree. I am going on the location Jack Carlson did for the Silver Chief and the map where he overlaid those 1875 claims on a modern day topo map.
When he overlaid those 1875 claims on the topo map the Silver Chief fell right over the Pit mine location.

I have been to the Pit mine and earlier in this thread I posted a topo map of the route I took to the mine as well as the exact location of the Pit Mine shaft and tunnel. It too falls right where Jack placed the Silver Chief.
When I was there the Pit mine was still wide open.

I had been with Ron Feldman and we were in his truck going somewhere but right now I can't recall where. I was riding in the back with Ron Lorenz and Feldman was telling about the Treasure Trove Permit he had recently applied for (1999-2000).
Ron Lorenz then started to tell me about the Ridge Pit mine on the ridge west of Rogers Spring. The Ridge Pit was Ted Cox's 1957 mine that today is called the Pit Mine.

Lorenz was giving me directions to this "Pit Mine" but he had something mixed up so I asked him to draw it on a piece of paper for me. I already knew the general area so he drew the ridge west of Rogers Spring and showed me how to follow it until I came to a saddle on that ridge at 5000 ft. elevation and there turn straight east and go downhill and you will be at the "Pit Mine". Ron and I were going to go there but he couldn't get away from work so I went there with two miner friends from Globe. We found the Pit Mine right where Ron Lorenz said it was. This would have been within 2 years of when it was last supposedly mined of the gold.

You referenced the Gustov Cox 1882 map of mining claims. It is that Cox map that actually nails where the Silver Chief was located and again it is the same location as the Pit Mine.

I have never seen you or anyone who has a different opinion of the location of the Silver Chief actually mark where you believe the Silver Chief was on a topo map. Or for that matter mark where the Pit Mine is.

To help explain where you believe the Silver Chief and the Pit Mine locations are I'm attaching a modern topo map of the area so you can mark it exactly for us. That will help clear up any confusion.

 

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[wrmickel1]

Joe:

I think the larger problem is that we know the names of those involved in the HEAT dig, including that of Ron's go-between within the FS.
That the pit mine dig was illegal, and therefor the goodies illegally obtained, would make anyone involved in the latter operation guilty by association, I would think.
How do you think they would feel about being implicated in this way ?

Yes....it's a bit nippy up here

View attachment 1533154

Regards:Wayne

9 above sounds like your having a Team Heet Wave,
about 40 degrees warmer there then here.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Wayne,

The names have been out there for a number of years now but there is no solid evidence that implicates any of the people you refer to. It's all just a good story being voiced now by many of those who are suspected of being involved. There are a number of coincidences, but that is not evidence. I assume they are no longer worried about legal consequences as they seem to be coming forward with the story. I certainly hope that is true.

Take care,

Joe

Team Heet, was a cool thing and all. I visited there web site often back then, rooting them on in finding a treasure
hoard, but in the end rumors are rumors, They never found the riches they were looking for.

Babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Team Heet, was a cool thing and all. I visited there web site often back then, rooting them on in finding a treasure
hoard, but in the end rumors are rumors, They never found the riches they were looking for.

Babymick1

maybe they weren't too worried about finding treasure....there are other things beside riches....i think they proved their point and accomplished their mission

 

[wrmickel1]

maybe they weren't too worried about finding treasure....there are other things beside riches....i think they proved their point and accomplished their mission

Ahh, No

There was no other reason, No point to prove, Although as a side line of thought after the fact, They found some wood
dating back to Anglo Saxson's the Vikings the romans and Aztec.

Might as well start another Rumor

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Otherwise Dave why apply for a Treasure Trove Permit, Same thinking to call a Gold mine The Silver Chief.

Babymick1. That permit applies they were looking for Treasure.

Remember the little building that holds tools.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Otherwise Dave why apply for a Treasure Trove Permit, Same thinking to call a Gold mine The Silver Chief.

Babymick1. That permit applies they were looking for Treasure.

Remember the little building that holds tools.

babymick1

you dont know the feldmans very well do you?

 

[azdave35]

Otherwise Dave why apply for a Treasure Trove Permit, Same thinking to call a Gold mine The Silver Chief.

Babymick1. That permit applies they were looking for Treasure.

Remember the little building that holds tools.

babymick1

there is alot of speculation going on around here.

 

[somehiker]

maybe they weren't too worried about finding treasure....there are other things beside riches....i think they proved their point and accomplished their mission

Were you at the Rendezvous for Ron's presentation Dave ?
Is was a good one, and covered that part, although Ron did seem to imply there was something else of significance found......mot big, but important to the history of that place. As I recall, he said at least one timber sample dated to having been cut during the 1840's..... so pre anglo. That he was able to show those timbers, that were actually sticking out of the ground above the more recently dug spring tunnel, to the folks from the FS, made getting the TT Permit possible.

 

[somehiker]

9 above sounds like your having a Team Heet Wave,
about 40 degrees warmer there then here.

babymick1

Yes, and we are lucky that having the Great Lakes all around us keeps it a bit warmer......until they freeze over that is.
Then we're lookin at temps more like what you're getting now. The downside is, until they freeze, we get tons of lake-effect snow to shovel.

 

[393stroker]

If you're standing at the pit mine and aim your compass at 100 degrees you should see a clearing up on other side of the ravine. You have to go down to the Y and then cut back up the other side. A steep climb up the left side will get you to the drift mine. There is a wheelbarrow there. It would help if you have someone help spot you from the pitmine. But be careful around the opening because it could collapse on you.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Chuck:

Did you get any photos that you can share, and when were you last there ?

Regards:Wayne

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

The names have been out there for a number of years now but there is no solid evidence that implicates any of the people you refer to. It's all just a good story being voiced now by many of those who are suspected of being involved. There are a number of coincidences, but that is not evidence. I assume they are no longer worried about legal consequences as they seem to be coming forward with the story. I certainly hope that is true.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

Since it's been suggested that those involved in the pit mine dig DID recover enough gold to realize a substantial increase in their financial status, that's hard to say.
Does the IRS have a statute of limitations for this sort of situation ? Yes or no though, a story like this just might get the interest of local news media. Considering the circumstances, and what could be revealed by an earnest and aggressive investigation by some hot shot reporter, I don't think I would want to be connected to it in any way. At the very least, there are lots of folks who get real upset by those who turn the wilderness into a trash heap.
Probably wouldn't be good for their business either. With egg on their faces, I don't think the FS would allow any more packing or trail rides on their turf . And could it be said then, that illegal mining put the Gold in Goldfield ? Some would probably say so.
Just looking at the downside....

Regards:Wayne

 

[wrmickel1]

Otherwise Dave why apply for a Treasure Trove Permit, Same thinking to call a Gold mine The Silver Chief.

Babymick1. That permit applies they were looking for Treasure.

Remember the little building that holds tools.

babymick1

No I don't talked to Ron Once

Topic not important, Come across as a very sincere fella, likable and Honest.
Not bad for first impression of someone, How he viewed me and my wife is the most sincere thing he did, He looked at my wife and said, I'm done with those mountains, directed at my wife. Why?

Cause he was in Trouble from his.
I don't think she had his back on Team Heet!

And he sure came across as finding well dissatisfaction

Take care Dave,

babymick1

but last time we talked you were trashing Feldman now your his biggest advocate, you need to pick a team!

Maybe Team Mick

 

[wrmickel1]

Joe:

Since it's been suggested that those involved in the pit mine dig DID recover enough gold to realize a substantial increase in their financial status, that's hard to say.
Does the IRS have a statute of limitations for this sort of situation ? Yes or no though, a story like this just might get the interest of local news media. Considering the circumstances, and what could be revealed by an earnest and aggressive investigation by some hot shot reporter, I don't think I would want to be connected to it in any way. At the very least, there are lots of folks who get real upset by those who turn the wilderness into a trash heap.
Probably wouldn't be good for their business either. With egg on their faces, I don't think the FS would allow any more packing or trail rides on their turf . And could it be said then, that illegal mining put the Gold in Goldfield ? Some would probably say so.
Just looking at the downside....

Regards:Wayne

Total waste of a reporters Time,

This rumor Crap comes from Ron moving his operation closer to the mountains and the main road in.
ohhh where he get the money for that. Rons getting old and building a lasting legacy for his children to carry on, I'm sure
his grown boys are pitching in to with there Ice cold gold and New show earnings as well.

Thats all it is, put yourself in his Shoes.

babymick1

 

[393stroker]

Hi Chuck:

Did you get any photos that you can share, and when were you last there ?

Regards:Wayne

post#91/102

 

[somehiker]

That's what I done Mick.
And that's why I think the way this has been handled could lead somewhere they won't want it to.
Better safe than sorry.

 

[somehiker]

post#91/102

Good shots Chuck......thanks

 

[azdave35]

No I don't talked to Ron Once

Topic not important, Come across as a very sincere fella, likable and Honest.
Not bad for first impression of someone, How he viewed me and my wife is the most sincere thing he did, He looked at my wife and said, I'm done with those mountains, directed at my wife. Why?

Cause he was in Trouble from his.
I don't think she had his back on Team Heet!

And he sure came across as finding well dissatisfaction

Take care Dave,

babymick1

but last time we talked you were trashing Feldman now your his biggest advocate, you need to pick a team!

Maybe Team Mick

hitting the bottle again mick?...

 

[Oroblanco]

Matthew Roberts wrote

Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?

This question can also be asked as....... Is the Silver Chief Mine really the Lost Dutchman Mine?

Because the Pit Mine and the Silver Chief Mine are one and the same mine.

No one knows for certain the origin of the Lost Dutchman Mine because Jacob Waltz did not file on it and no mining record of it exists.

But records do exist for the Silver Chief mine and the filings and re-filings that were recorded down through the years to the present day.

From these records we can create a time line of the life of the Silver Chief Mine from it's beginning in 1875 until today.


Timeline of the Jacob Waltz Lost Dutchman Mine, the Silver Chief Mine and the Pit Mine.

1869 - 1872 believed to be the years Waltz found his Dutchman Mine.

1869 — 1885 believed to be the years Waltz worked his Dutchman Mine.

1875…..the year James Rogers filed on the Silver Chief Mine.

1875…..the year the stamp mill was built near Rogers spring to process ore from the Silver Chief.

1875 — 1888…..the years of peak mining in and around the Silver Chief Mine.

1957…..the year Ted Cox filed on the Ridge Pit Mine formerly the Silver Chief.

1964…..the year Carl and Eva Smith filed on the Lazy Mule# formerly the Ridge Pit / Silver Chief Mine.

1966 — 1972…..the years Carl Smith, Milton Hammond and Ted Monson worked the Lazy Mule# Mine formerly the Silver Chief.

1980…..the year Charles Waters and 2 employees ran the dumps of the former Silver Chief Mine. Gold had spiked to $850 and Silver to $51 in January 1980.

1982….Jimmie Jinks samples the former Silver Chief Mine in his Superstition Wilderness Mineral Survey Report. Sample #17.

1997 — 1999…..the three summers the Pit Mine formerly the Silver Chief Mine, is said by some to have been mined of Gold.

2004…..the year (September 2004) the HEAT dig was begun at Rogers Spring.


2005 - 2009.....the years Dutchman books with the theme the Pit Mine is the Lost Dutchman Mine are published.

Great post Matthew, not much to argue with. I would agree that we are speculating as to when Jacob Waltz discovered his mine and worked it, and will add something that might cause some debate among the Dutch hunters. Waltz might not have actually discovered the famous mine until 1880, if this newspaper article is talking about Waltz and Weiser:



IF this is a report of Waltz and Weiser, then our timelines will need to be adjusted accordingly, and it makes the chance of ANY mine within the Randolph/Rogers district highly unlikely to be the mine of Jacob Waltz. There would have been miners working within sight when Waltz discovered the thing!

Cactusjumper wrot

As you know, I can be very hard to convince once I have made up my mind as to the facts. Someone who has been to all of the mines in that specific area, and placed them all accurately on a Topographic map has convinced me that the Pit Mine is not the Silver Chief. I know you put a lot of stock in people putting boots on the ground and so do I. I don't know how many people have taken the time and made the effort to visit each and every mine shown on that old Cox Map, but I know he has.

　
I had not noticed that you might be hard to convince. But as to someone plotting the claims on the ground, while this is what the courts rule by, it is very difficult to know exactly what monuments go with what claims, especially after many years and no one keeping them up. Unless a mineral survey had been done to plot out the claims when they were first laid out, and I very much doubt that, it is not possible to say with absolute certainty exactly what the boundaries or locations of the old claims might have been. So I must respectfully disagree on that point, with both you and Matthew. I don't believe we can be certain of what claim(s) might have originally been on the "Pit" mine at this point in time.

　
Please do continue;
　

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