Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[Kace]

Think that Dalton thought that Bigelow was killed as Jesse James... INTERESTING!

Hey Reb...As far as Dalton thinking that...He was told to say that by Houk/ Jesse James lll /Jesse Lee James. It started as Kentuck said by JOHN James when he tried to convince the world HE was JWJ. HOUK et al used and gave to Dalton the majority of the same stories made up and told by John James as well most of the same signed affidavits attesting John James and J.Frank Dalton were Jesse Woodson James.

If you can...read James Vs Turilli. Also read the JFD papers and read all the stuff from Minnesota that Kentuck posted. There's some great stuff in there that explains a lot. Then read Houks letters. I'll post some other stuff soon.

The JWJ family won multiple lawsuits against these guys who claimed to be JWJ. The judgements were not paid because Turilli appealed then lost the appeal and then died. Stella James decided not to go after his estate. It's extremely hard and expensive to collect on civil judgements. The fact that she won multiple times and proved Dalton was Not JWJ in a court of law on more than one occasion was more important to her than money.

Turilli had a lot to lose and did lose a lot of business at Meremac Caverns due to the court rulings proclaiming Dalton was a fraud... But that didn't stop him, they have a wax museum of Dalton as JWJ and his supposed gang that rivals Madam Trousseau's and Still bills it as Jesse James Hideout. That place is a Road Side carnival type attraction...

Those that signed the affidavits attesting John James and JFD were JWJ were Never charged with giving false statements because the JWJ family didn't go after them. They Won the cases which nullified any false affidavits. It should be mentioned that those who signed the affidavits had either died before or recounted their claims.

Google doesn't research everyone involved in stories like this. It makes it hard for researchers, like you know, to get to the facts. It's extremely time consuming to go so far back especially on this topic when so many authors just repeat what others before them have said. It makes it even harder if the researcher doesn't live close or travel to all these locations.

I'd love to spend time researching my family out your way in Virginia to see and walk where they did instead of just hearing or reading about it, but so far I haven't had the sufficient amount time to devote to that....That's why I really enjoy hearing you and franklin describe and talk about those areas. I've learned a lot.

Charley Bigelow Did Not Exist...Like Baker said, its great to make up a name for a corpse when you're hiding something... Who back then could of imagined all the research tools and easy travel available now to prove or disprove claims?

IF Charley Bigelow did exist and Was A Pinkerton Agent that disappeared, was attacked or killed... Anyone could find that information as All Pinkerton Agents that died or were involved in Pinkerton activities that went sideways have been extremely well documented.

The town of Bigelow that's often repeatedly referred to when talking about Charlie Bigelow is a actually called a Village that's 0.09 in size with maybe 20-30 people living there and located in Holt Co, Missouri. I've been through there quite a few times. I've also been to the cemeteries there and in that area and spent more time than I care to admit looking for Any proof of Bigelows existence for several decades, even before the net...Tax,Birth,Marriage, Military, Census,Property, Talking to people up there, who laugh when that name is mentioned...Even using other given names thinking Charley could be a nickname...Nothing. There's Many researchers who have done this and all come up with zip. I agree that's Not JWJ in that casket photo, I don't know who it is, but I do know it's not Charley Bigelow a Non Existent Man. John James just made it up. He was obsessed with JWJ, spent a year in prison studying everything he could about him and concocted these stories...He, like Dalton was in mental hospitals and Houk was diagnosed as being mentally ill.

Kace

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

Well, "CB" was an UNDERCOVER Pinkerton Agent; NOT sure how much info would be "available"; wasn't it in the CRITTENENDEN MEMIORS...? BTW, WHAT parts of Virginia...? (YOUR family; NO family name is required...).

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Jesse James's corpse...? MANY speculations; maybe Jeremiah Jesse "Mason" James (aka Tom Howard) from Kansas... NO kin of JJ, BUT! DID look a lot like him. In Death "pic" of JJ has right hand covering left hand with missing "digit"... NOT! Corpse PROBALY had FULL fingers left hand; NOT JJ, then...

 

[sdcfia]

I believe he would be easier to find if he was well known. However, I can name a few other men who have real graves without a real person buried in the graves who were used by the K.G.C. and the O.A.K. to help mark a treasure trail. My point being, they had a way of using who or whatever they needed to get the job done. So if you are going to use a body double, it would be very smart to use a fake name for the corpse.

L.C.

Graves. Here's an interesting name prominently displayed in a forgotten old cemetery in Georgetown, NM. It's at the very head of Lamp Bright Draw. Downstream several miles is the heart of a mondo treasure legend. As my old friend Jim W. said, "Gravestones are excellent sources of information, hidden in plain sight. So are their locations. So are proper names." There are several reports of a man reported to be JJ doing business in the other mining camps in the Georgetown region - Hillsboro, Steeple Rock, Silver City. Ross C., a now-deceased old man I knew whose daddy hunted outlaw loot with John Trammel, claimed JJ was a silent partner in the Southern Hotel in Silver City, where he stayed when in town. Quien sabe?


Georgetown


Ross

 

[PirateLabs]

Well, if it wasn't JJ, then who did Robert Ford shoot in the back of the head? Someone got shot in the head there. Did Ford not recognize Jesse who he knew for a long time? If it was someone else, then why would Ford have shot him? A lot of local folks were pretty pissed at Ford so it appears he did shoot someone. Some of this makes no sense to me.

Bill

 

[Kace]

Well, "CB" was an UNDERCOVER Pinkerton Agent; NOT sure how much info would be "available"; wasn't it in the CRITTENENDEN MEMIORS...? BTW, WHAT parts of Virginia...? (YOUR family; NO family name is required...).

Charlie Bigelow didn't exist though...That was a made up name.

Pinkerton was a Private, Family Owned Detective Agency...Not Black Ops or a Government Branch where exposing a missing or killed agent could compromise anyone else or any ongoing operations. Pinkerton had also quit pursuing or actively looking for any James/Younger members after public outcry calling them murderers in the 1870's.

Frank Dalton wrote in the Crittendon Memiors that Bob Ford killed Jesse James and that Charlie FORD his brother, was also there. This was before JFD decided to be Jesse James. 1936 I think it was that they were released to the public by H H C.

If you have any ideas or research tools to locate a Charley Bigelow in Missouri, Prior to John James claiming He was JWJ in the mid 1920's and give or take 5-10yrs of JWJ's age of 34... I'm very open to it. Many people have tried and not been able to do it. Baker has been actively searching for a CB too and by what Kentuck showed, he's done it as well as other authors trying to locate this man John James and later JFD and Houk claimed was Charlie Bigelow.

If you can find something on Charley/Charlie/ Bigeloe/Bigelow Prior to John James in the mid 1920's claiming that he was JWJ and that CB was killed in his place and you need to get the hard copies from Missouri, Let Me Know...I'll do that for you.

According to all the authors following John James claims that repeat that story, CB was either claimed to be from Bigelow, Mo in Holt County or Kearney, Mo in Clay County. I have looked for him in Jackson County and as far Northern Mo as Buchanan County, (St. Joseph), DeKalb and Andrew Counties...South to Benton, Henry and St.Clair (where JFD claimed to have lived) Counties and on down to Greene County. Then East to Lafayette County. I've searched many databases, but maybe you have something different...I'm really open to what you find like I said. I'm still looking too as is Baker.

I've got family here due to my aunts death... I'll be back later...Hopefully

Kace

 

[Kace]

Jesse James's corpse...? MANY speculations; maybe Jeremiah Jesse "Mason" James (aka Tom Howard) from Kansas... NO kin of JJ, BUT! DID look a lot like him. In Death "pic" of JJ has right hand covering left hand with missing "digit"... NOT! Corpse PROBALY had FULL fingers left hand; NOT JJ, then...

I'll post some photos when I get back of JWJ's Missing Finger and JFD's Non Missing Fingers...along with the inquest.

Kace

 

[Kace]

Graves. Here's an interesting name prominently displayed in a forgotten old cemetery in Georgetown, NM. It's at the very head of Lamp Bright Draw. Downstream several miles is the heart of a mondo treasure legend. As my old friend Jim W. said, "Gravestones are excellent sources of information, hidden in plain sight. So are their locations. So are proper names." There are several reports of a man reported to be JJ doing business in the other mining camps in the Georgetown region - Hillsboro, Steeple Rock, Silver City. Ross C., a now-deceased old man I knew whose daddy hunted outlaw loot with John Trammel, claimed JJ was a silent partner in the Southern Hotel in Silver City, where he stayed when in town. Quien sabe?

View attachment 1634069
Georgetown

View attachment 1634070
Ross

I Completely Agree SD...Tombstones can be a Wealth of Information!!

Great Pics!

Kace

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I'll post some photos when I get back of JWJ's Missing Finger and JFD's Non Missing Fingers...along with the inquest.

Kace

THANKS! Look forward to such...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Charlie Bigelow didn't exist though...That was a made up name.

Pinkerton was a Private, Family Owned Detective Agency...Not Black Ops or a Government Branch where exposing a missing or killed agent could compromise anyone else or any ongoing operations. Pinkerton had also quit pursuing or actively looking for any James/Younger members after public outcry calling them murderers in the 1870's.

Frank Dalton wrote in the Crittendon Memiors that Bob Ford killed Jesse James and that Charlie FORD his brother, was also there. This was before JFD decided to be Jesse James. 1936 I think it was that they were released to the public by H H C.

If you have any ideas or research tools to locate a Charley Bigelow in Missouri, Prior to John James claiming He was JWJ in the mid 1920's and give or take 5-10yrs of JWJ's age of 34... I'm very open to it. Many people have tried and not been able to do it. Baker has been actively searching for a CB too and by what Kentuck showed, he's done it as well as other authors trying to locate this man John James and later JFD and Houk claimed was Charlie Bigelow.

If you can find something on Charley/Charlie/ Bigeloe/Bigelow Prior to John James in the mid 1920's claiming that he was JWJ and that CB was killed in his place and you need to get the hard copies from Missouri, Let Me Know...I'll do that for you.

According to all the authors following John James claims that repeat that story, CB was either claimed to be from Bigelow, Mo in Holt County or Kearney, Mo in Clay County. I have looked for him in Jackson County and as far Northern Mo as Buchanan County, (St. Joseph), DeKalb and Andrew Counties...South to Benton, Henry and St.Clair (where JFD claimed to have lived) Counties and on down to Greene County. Then East to Lafayette County. I've searched many databases, but maybe you have something different...I'm really open to what you find like I said. I'm still looking too as is Baker.

I've got family here due to my aunts death... I'll be back later...Hopefully

Kace

Will "post" what I can find, for you. "Google" Guest Post: Did Jesse James fake his own death (has BIGELOW); One Dusky Track: Fake Jesse OR Real Jesse? (has BIGELOW); Santa Clara Magazine: Truth, Legend, & Jesse James (has BIGELOW); Wiki: J. Frank Dalton (has BIGELOW). DYK...? J. Frank Dalton was JOHN Frank Dalton...? Numerous books...

 

[Dirt1955]

Information regarding James E Crittenden shown on the headstone in Post #1324 by SDCFIA:
United States Census, 1910
Name: James E Crittenden
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1910
Event Place: Mimbres Mill, Grant, New Mexico, United States
Gender: Male
Age: 12
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Race (Original): White
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Relationship to Head of Household (Original): Son
Birth Year (Estimated): 1898
Birthplace: New Mexico
Father's Birthplace: New Mexico
Mother's Birthplace: New Mexico
Sheet Letter: A
Sheet Number: 3
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James H Crittenden Head Male 41 New Mexico
Marguerite M Crittenden Wife Female 32 New Mexico
James E Crittenden Son Male 12 New Mexico
Victor Crittenden Son Male 7 New Mexico
Harry Crittenden Son Male 4 New Mexico

James E Crittenden died 29 Oct 1915, approx 18 years old. His father, James H Crittenden died 15 Oct 1915, approx 46 years old.
cause of death unknown. Wife, Marguerite listed as a "widow" in later census and died in Michigan.
I am not going to post anymore family history, but it leads to family members who it appears erected the current grave stone (it is more modern than others in Georgetown cemetery).
There's more on familysearch.org for those interested in the connections.
I defer to you Jesse James experts to flesh out any connections to the Crittenden Headstones vs Crittendon Memoirs.
what I am interested in is SDCFIA's reference to "Here's an interesting name prominently displayed in a forgotten old cemetery in Georgetown, NM. It's at the very head of Lamp Bright Draw. Downstream several miles is the heart of a mondo treasure legend."
SDCFIA, Enlighten us about the mondo treasure legend, if you please.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

The Pinkerton Detective agency began in 1850. I believe the detective agency (privately owned and contracted goons) was put into use by the same monopolists I am studying and were used as something like what the iron fist had been. They were blind when they were paid to be blind. They were dumb when they were told to be dumb. Carnegie and friends hired them to beat down the unionist during the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, and they were acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. This is just one incident that draws suspicion to the true intentions of the agency, there are several more that makes me wonder. Like Jesse James getting his picture taken in Nebraska City at a shop located on main street a few blocks from the Sherriff's office and courthouse. He would have had to ride by them both with Logan Enyart at his side who was the man that instigated the photo shoot that day. It was the Chicago-based Pinkerton Detective Agency who had supposedly been pursuing the James brothers and their gang stating in 1874, when several big railroad companies first hired the Pinkertons to stop the outlaws. Yet Jesse was able to ride into a railroad town with his friends unharassed and unarrested or turned in to the authorities by citizens of the town for a $5000 dollar reward. Nebraska City is only 80 miles from St. Joseph where the Pinkertons were surrounding Jesse and blowing his Mom's arm off and killing his brother. That whole incident seems like a debacle caused by the wrong agents chosen to be in charge of what was supposed to be a simple stakeout. On March 17, 1874, they were in Union Missouri and had a shootout with the Youngers, and then in January of 1875, they blew his Mom's arm off. With all of this action happening South of Nebraska City 80 miles, and ALL trains heading North passing through on the way to a major hub in Omaha, how in the heck did they not have anyone in or around Nebraska City reporting James was there getting a photo taken and staying 8 miles outside of town with a close friend who was a banker in that city

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/carnegie-strike-homestead-mill/

Same money-making monopolies and stuff, different time with a different president. https://books.google.com/books?id=j...v=onepage&q=Paul Morton Chicago steel&f=false

I have always believed without a doubt that Jesse had inside help on the trains and cargo onboard. The Morton's were railroad men who were also members of a secret society with a hidden agenda.

It would have been so easy for L. Enyart to communicate with Morton and Jesse, which I am certain would have taken place without a face to face meeting. That would be a direct link to the inner circle of the K.G.C. that has been overlooked by the historians.

L.C.

 

[Kace]

Will "post" what I can find, for you. "Google" Guest Post: Did Jesse James fake his own death (has BIGELOW); One Dusky Track: Fake Jesse OR Real Jesse? (has BIGELOW); Santa Clara Magazine: Truth, Legend, & Jesse James (has BIGELOW); Wiki: J. Frank Dalton (has BIGELOW). DYK...? J. Frank Dalton was JOHN Frank Dalton...? Numerous books...

Thanks....I 'Googled' what you said to...Everything you listed is AFTER JOHN James and repeating his/Houks and Houk/Dalton. Houk got all public information and tidbits of information by writing to folks and asking questions...Kentuck showed a couple of the letters...There's a lot more...He then fed all that information to Dalton to learn. Did you read all of the Santa Clara article?

There's No Way around Not researching the dates of these writings...Dime novels or Books and then more importantly Researching the authors to see if their writings are factual or repeated sensationalism along with checking the bibliography. Google doesn't do that...And there's a boatload of JJ books who's authors just Copy Each Others Sensationalism.

Yes, I knew Frank Dalton added J. for John after being caught lying about being Frank Dalton..US Marshal and being the older brother of the Dalton Brothers Gang. Before that he was 'The Kid' as in Billy. He was In His Mind...William Andrews Clark..Copper King and Senator, Partners with Howard Hughes...Billionaire...Owned RKO Studios...Movie Mogul... Partnered with Henry Ford..Automaker etc, etc. He was the Original Forrest Gump.

But right now we're talking about Charlie Bigelow which is a name JOHN James made up. IF you can find ANYTHING At All Prior to the Mid 1920's and Prior to John James claiming to be JWJ.. that's what's needed.

Did you Read James Vs Turilli? The JFD papers? Orvus Howk Letters? And the Minnesota stuff regarding this that Kentuck posted a page or so back?

Kace

 

[Kace]

The Pinkerton Detective agency began in 1850. I believe the detective agency (privately owned and contracted goons) was put into use by the same monopolists I am studying and were used as something like what the iron fist had been. They were blind when they were paid to be blind. They were dumb when they were told to be dumb. Carnegie and friends hired them to beat down the unionist during the Homestead Strike of 1892, in which Pinkerton agents were called in to reinforce the strikebreaking measures of industrialist Henry Clay Frick, and they were acting on behalf of Andrew Carnegie. This is just one incident that draws suspicion to the true intentions of the agency, there are several more that makes me wonder. Like Jesse James getting his picture taken in Nebraska City at a shop located on main street a few blocks from the Sherriff's office and courthouse. He would have had to ride by them both with Logan Enyart at his side who was the man that instigated the photo shoot that day. It was the Chicago-based Pinkerton Detective Agency who had supposedly been pursuing the James brothers and their gang stating in 1874, when several big railroad companies first hired the Pinkertons to stop the outlaws. Yet Jesse was able to ride into a railroad town with his friends unharassed and unarrested or turned in to the authorities by citizens of the town for a $5000 dollar reward. Nebraska City is only 80 miles from St. Joseph where the Pinkertons were surrounding Jesse and blowing his Mom's arm off and killing his brother. That whole incident seems like a debacle caused by the wrong agents chosen to be in charge of what was supposed to be a simple stakeout. On March 17, 1874, they were in Union Missouri and had a shootout with the Youngers, and then in January of 1875, they blew his Mom's arm off. With all of this action happening South of Nebraska City 80 miles, and ALL trains heading North passing through on the way to a major hub in Omaha, how in the heck did they not have anyone in or around Nebraska City reporting James was there getting a photo taken and staying 8 miles outside of town with a close friend who was a banker in that city

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/carnegie-strike-homestead-mill/
View attachment 1634203
Same money-making monopolies and stuff, different time with a different president. https://books.google.com/books?id=j...v=onepage&q=Paul Morton Chicago steel&f=false

I have always believed without a doubt that Jesse had inside help on the trains and cargo onboard. The Morton's were railroad men who were also members of a secret society with a hidden agenda.

It would have been so easy for L. Enyart to communicate with Morton and Jesse, which I am certain would have taken place without a face to face meeting. That would be a direct link to the inner circle of the K.G.C. that has been overlooked by the historians.

L.C.

Right...

Have you had any success locating Anyone named Charlie Bigelow?

Kace

 

[sdcfia]

... what I am interested in is SDCFIA's reference to "Here's an interesting name prominently displayed in a forgotten old cemetery in Georgetown, NM. It's at the very head of Lamp Bright Draw. Downstream several miles is the heart of a mondo treasure legend."
SDCFIA, Enlighten us about the mondo treasure legend, if you please.

I only wanted to support L.C.'s statement about the use of headstones as potential information sources, but I don't want to hijack the thread. It's a long story, Dirt - too long to repeat here. It has to do with a 16th-century gold discovery, and in the same vicinity, a 1930s gold coin meltdown site.

 

[Dirt1955]

SDCFIA, Totally agree with L.C.s project/conclusions. You’re right...this thread should stay on track...my bad...got excited knowing the wealth of NM history you carry around in your back pocket. Back to Jesse.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Will "post" what I can find, for you. "Google" Guest Post: Did Jesse James fake his own death (has BIGELOW); One Dusky Track: Fake Jesse OR Real Jesse? (has BIGELOW); Santa Clara Magazine: Truth, Legend, & Jesse James (has BIGELOW); Wiki: J. Frank Dalton (has BIGELOW). DYK...? J. Frank Dalton was JOHN Frank Dalton...? Numerous books...

It seems to me that you would have to believe the Dalton theory in order to swallow the Bigalow story hook line and sinker. I have yet to find any evidence that Bigalow existed anywhere but in a story. I am inclined to believe that was not Jesse James in the pine box in 1882, but I also don't think that the dead man they used for a body double was named Charlie Bigalow. Being a notorious local Missouri outlaw it would seem there should be more to Charlie Bigalow's story than one chapter involving Jesse James. It was not so populated that Bigalow would have blended in. What about previous crimes and warrants for his arrest? I can't seem to find anything but the one chapter in his life. That is, unless you want to believe the "He said, She said stories. I just can't find any factual evidence to support the man ever lived or died.

Just my 2$ worth L.C.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

Right...

Have you had any success locating Anyone named Charlie Bigelow?

Kace

No Luck. I am inclined to believe that he is a myth.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

 

[Rebel - KGC]

And...?