JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Springfield]

Mike - an excellent post from you as always. Before proceeding, please review my post #1909, bolded questions. These questions represent my only interest in this topic, and then, only with how the answers fit into a larger picture than the Jesuits in southern Arizona. I really don't care where the chips fall - I just want to feel as confident as possible with the results. I don't have a rigid position to defend.

Fortunately or not, my background compels me to question things rather rigorously. I have not claimed all the arguments presented here are fallacious, but some are. Conclusions drawn from assumptions, even well-presented ones that, nonetheless, can't be verified, are still grey. You and others have provided plenty of evidence to support your conclusions, but my original questions remain somewhat on the table - enough to keep probing, anyway. Oro claims that this forum is not a court of law, but I personally prefer due process over a lynching - riding a stolen horse doesn't necessarily mean you stole it, as things aren't always what they seem.

The most interesting aspect, to me, of the 82-pound story is the Mayan connection.

 

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[Springfield]

Springfield wrote


For what it is worth, you are correct; this is a forum, and also not a criminal court. We are not bound by rules of "beyond a reasonable doubt". Considering what this is all about, it is more like a civil court case, in which the burden of proof is very simple - more likely than not, or 51%.

Oroblanco

I want more. 51% is a toss-up opinion, not a confident conclusion.

 

[releventchair]

Part of that due process can detract from whats presented. A prosecution with a weak case often as I,m sure you know will attack a witness,s credibility in hopes of that same testimony being discarded. Why accept Von Muellers writing of recovered quills with nuggets in them when I was not there?Who really hid them? So it did not happen?
The Jesuits were here and had "treasure". With out proof of its importation,though South America or other sites sure could have supplied plenty,then it remains a domestic source.I,m not prosecuting them but they had the goodies regardless of from where and that satisfies the O.P.,S question outside of location.
With natives mining under Jesuit watch, outside of information determining that they were mining being discredited through source of info failing credibility test and no proof of mining thus concluded, then whats left but they had direct access to mines and their yields? Sure there would be honest barter for what was valued at the time but mining over time indicates success in bearing ore and a surplus is inevitable due to time element despite labor requirements that were satisfied and the eras less refined methods. They had options in raising stock and farming but what evidence exists of greatest measure of wealth in S.W. N.America during that same era?.Too free ranging stock among the Apache would suffer loss. A generous portion is indoors under church roofing, from underground somewhere before being crafted into finished works. Without convincing proof of its importation, which would have been a matter of record to those involved in its shipping as large amounts shipped were valuable and accountable to those shipping it,with out manifests or other documentation the source origin question answers itself as the goods must have a source.

 

[deducer]

I held a twenty pound brick of melted gold coins once - outlaw loot. I mentioned to its owner that it's the kind of thing you see in treasure magazines. "No you don't," he said.

I'd like to believe that 1986 Treasure article, but I can't vouch for it. Is the '82-pound' story 'fallacious' - supported by faulty logic? I don't think so, but the story is simply either true or disinformative. I do know that if I had found 82 pounds of gold bars, there is no chance that I would have advertised my good fortune, now or ever

In regard to the question of whether the story is either true or disinformative, what grounds do you have for considering that story disinformative?

Keep in mind that Mike has already personally vouched for the story, and in the entire history of this forum and others, I have not once found him to be disingenuous or misleading.

 

[deducer]

Mike - an excellent post from you as always. Before proceeding, please review my post #1909, bolded questions. These questions represent my only interest in this topic, and then, only with how the answers fit into a larger picture than the Jesuits in southern Arizona. I really don't care where the chips fall - I just want to feel as confident as possible with the results. I don't have a rigid position to defend.

With all due respect, your questions have been answered one way or another in the course of this lengthy thread and a few others. I am not sure why you chose to keep ignoring that simple fact.

 

[gollum]

Mike - an excellent post from you as always. Before proceeding, please review my post #1909, bolded questions. These questions represent my only interest in this topic, and then, only with how the answers fit into a larger picture than the Jesuits in southern Arizona. I really don't care where the chips fall - I just want to feel as confident as possible with the results. I don't have a rigid position to defend.

Fortunately or not, my background compels me to question things rather rigorously. I have not claimed all the arguments presented here are fallacious, but some are. Conclusions drawn from assumptions, even well-presented ones that, nonetheless, can't be verified, are still grey. You and others have provided plenty of evidence to support your conclusions, but my original questions remain somewhat on the table - enough to keep probing, anyway. Oro claims that this forum is not a court of law, but I personally prefer due process over a lynching - riding a stolen horse doesn't necessarily mean you stole it, as things aren't always what they seem.

The most interesting aspect, to me, of the 82-pound story is the Mayan connection.

Spring,

All your questions have been answered several times in the now 129 pages of this thread.

1. Where are the Jesuit Mines? Very simple. Many of them were reopened and worked. Because of the mineralized nature of the entire area between Tucson and Arispe, prospectors have been crawling all over those mountains from the 1600s until the present. Take for instance, The Wandering Jew Mine:

Col. Poston, in his work on Arizona, quotes the Jesuit records wherein is given a description of the location of their property. It states that standing in the church and looking through the east door towards the mountains, about ten miles distant is seen a sharp picacho or pinnacle, and that near that are the mines worked by the priests. Standing in the old ruined church today and looking through the east door, there is discovered the pinnacle described in the record, and it is the highest point on the ridge through which runs the “Wandering Jew” ledge. The work we uncovered we believe to be a part of that done by the Jesuits. And somewhere in that hill are doubtless deeper and more extensive working, co-temporary and covered in the same way.

In our own properties we have found unmistakable evidences of former occupancy and operations. Upon the “Wandering Jew” mine we stripped the top of the ledge a distance of nearly 300 feet between two shafts we were sinking. Our first work on the trench we dug about four feet in depth was in virgin ground, and our excavation exposed the mineral in the ledge, which is a high grade galena, interspersed with gray copper. At the end of about 150 feet we broke into an old working that had been completed much the same as our own, and afterward covered over. First small saplings and boughs of trees had been laid across the trench, which was on a side hill just below the crest of a ridge. The network of boughs and saplings was covered with a thick layer of closely matted twigs, over these was laid a layer of grass, and upon that a layer of dirt. In a very short time after that covering was made, natural causes assimilated its appearance with the adjacent earth, so no one could detect the covered work. We stopped throwing off this old covering when we reached the dump of our own shaft, and made no effort to carry it beyond the dump. Had we sunk the shaft on the vein we should have penetrated the same old working, but we had sunk between two veins and cross-cut both, our object being to cut each away below the old work uncovered in the trench. That work we believe to have been done by the Jesuit missionaries, the ruins of whose old church in the Santa Cruz Valley, at Tumacacori, are visible from the “Wandering Jew” ridge.

The Wandering Jew Mine was discovered in about 1870. Remember that phrase "SO NO ONE COULD DETECT THE COVERED WORK." Why would a miner find a very rich ledge of silver/galena, work it for a while, then cover it up and leave it forever? No miner would do that (except maybe Jacob Waltz HAHAHA). No, a silver/galena mine is nothing like a rich gold mine. You can't take out three caches and be set for life. Silver is just not that valuable. You combine the stated Jesuit Documents with the fact that Col Poston did exactly as they instructed, and saw the place he had already found to be worked, and you have proof the Jesuit Documents were right.

2. How rich were they? They were exceedingly rich. They had to be, because the Spanish/Jesuits methods of refining were still very crude. If the ore was not very rich, it is a fact that the Spanish would just forget it.

3. Who operated them? Temporal coadjutors (or laybrothers). Jesuit Priests were bound by Ecclesiastical Precept not to operate any businesses for profit. They were also specifically forbidden to have anything to do (directly or indirectly) with mining.

4. Where di the money go? This one is a LITTLE more problematic. Much of the money that came from what they could legally do, went to the Cabaceras and Colegios of each individual Rectorate (while Mexico was broken up into states like; Sonora, Pimeria Alta, Sinaloa, etc the Jesuits broke up the New World into Rectorates. Each Rectorate had a Cabacera [head] and a Colegio [college]). Wealth from their mining nobody is 100% certain (because it was illegal and the Jesuits were instructed to burn all their correspondences that could damage the reputation of the Order). What some of us have figured out is that there were two paths for that wealth. The one to Rome went via Matamoros to the Bay at Galveston. The path to Manilla (which began later after the Eastern Route began to get more populated), went through Caborca to Loreto (on the Baja Peninsula). From there (initially) down to Punto Cabo San Lucas, where it was secretly loaded onto Manilla Galleons. Later, another Mission (now lost) was built somewhere on the Pacific Coast of Baja for this express purpose. After it was proven that Padre Kino's theory (that California was not an island but a peninsula) was correct, the Western Route went around the Laguna Salada Area, and South into Baja. This may also be where the story of the lost Mission Santa Ysabel came from. It may have been a waystation on the trail to Cabo.

5. If the loot was once hidden in Arizona, why would we assume that it is still hidden there? This question is the MOST vexing of all! But I do have a good answer. The Order of Jesus was restored worldwide in 1814. At this time, Mexico was in the throes of its War for Independence. Mexico was in an almost constant state of war until about 1917. Much of Latin America had caught the Independence Bug. Even once the fighting was over, the places (where I believe) they hid their wealth before being arrested were becoming populated. It would have been nearly impossible for a bunch of Jesuit Priests and a train of mules to head into the mountains unnoticed. If they would have been caught transporting a muletrain full of gold and silver, all their stories of being a poor order, having no wealth, etc would have been exposed as lies. So, they let the wealth stay where it was. The Church does not have a human lifespan. The Church can afford to let that wealth sit in the ground for hundreds of years. OH, and not just in Arizona! California, Baja, New Mexico, Sonora, and maybe others.


NOW WE COME TO THE MAYAN CONNECTION!

There is none really. HAHAHA We get to play "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon", and I will show you the Jesuits! The gold bars (and silver) found in the area had unmistakable Jesuit connotations (Padre Saeta, Cross with "V", etc). The "Mayan Number Rock" guided the way to that Jesuit Gold. Who would know how the Mayan Numbering System worked in rural Southern Arizona? Maybe a Jesuit Priest formerly stationed in Maya Country? Did the Jesuits interact with the Maya? YES!

In 1703, the first Bourbon monarch of Spain, King Philip V (r. 1700–1746), still struggling to secure his position atop the throne of Castile, ordered the governor of Yucatan, don Martín de Ursúa y Arismendi, to send Jesuits from Mérida to convert the Itza Maya. Philip V and his successor, Ferdinand VI (r. 1746–1759), took steps toward more positive relations with the Jesuits, an order more often associated with Portuguese overseas expansion. Despite their distrust of the order and its highly cosmopolitan composition – exacerbated by increasing distrust of Portugal, the nation of origin of many Jesuits – the Society proved an effective source of manpower in establishing a Spanish presence in poorly demarcated territories and founding settlements among unconquered indigenous groups in Northern New Spain.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

For our skeptics - I would like to see the alternate explanation for the slag piles, which I will put in bold for ease of reading;

A: do you claim that the witnesses whom reported seeing the slag piles, like Dr Williamson in 1860, were telling the truth or not?
B: if you allow that there were indeed slag heaps, what happened to them, as you dismiss the report that they were hauled off and sold for the silver content?
C: how do you explain the presence of smelter slag built into San Xavier and Tumacacori churches themselves?

On a different aspect; do you agree that there was smelting activity at the missions, while padres were running the show? If so, where do you suppose the ore they smelted came from, if not from Jesuit (and later, Franciscan) mines?
Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

In regard to the question of whether the story is either true or disinformative, what grounds do you have for considering that story disinformative?

Keep in mind that Mike has already personally vouched for the story, and in the entire history of this forum and others, I have not once found him to be disingenuous or misleading.

You keep pushing, but it's a fair question. Here's the deal. I have nothing but the highest respect for Mike, whom I have never met. As much as I respect Mike, he's a stranger to me, so my acceptance of his statements must be limited. This is no slur on him - it's how life and human nature work. When he vouches for the '82-pound' protagonist's story, I give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he relates to the forum what he believes to be true.

There is another opinion about the '82 pound' story. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html. Post #58, Sept 21, 2007. I know Bob. He's one of the finest men I've met. His reputation is impeccable. His version of the story is at odds with others'. This is problematical. Please don't force me to choose sides, because from my perspective, it seems Mike was misinformed. I hate it when that happens.

If there's a lesson here, it's one I've warned people of before: don't believe everything you read in treasure magazines.

 

[deducer]

You keep pushing, but it's a fair question. Here's the deal. I have nothing but the highest respect for Mike, whom I have never met. As much as I respect Mike, he's a stranger to me, so my acceptance of his statements must be limited. This is no slur on him - it's how life and human nature work. When he vouches for the '82-pound' protagonist's story, I give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he relates to the forum what he believes to be true.

There is another opinion about the '82 pound' story. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html. Post #58, Sept 21, 2007. I know Bob. He's one of the finest men I've met. His reputation is impeccable. His version of the story is at odds with others'. This is problematical. Please don't force me to choose sides, because from my perspective, it seems Mike was misinformed. I hate it when that happens.

Considering the amount of research Mike has done, and the experience and intelligence he brings to the table, I think it a very poor choice of word to label him "misinformed." I think he has a healthy ability to distinguish between what is realistic and what is farfetched. Has Bob done similar, extensive research?

Even then, in regard to the design of the gold bars, Bob did not have "an answer for that." The strongest word he used was "probably."

I think it is too much to ask to imagine a revolution-era Mexican rancher concocting an elaborate scheme whereby he melts his coins into fake Jesuit bars, stashes them in the pattern of a cross, and leaves directions in Mayan code for rediscovery. This is a little too intricate for a rancher to have done.

This would require not just advanced education including mathematics, but also a great sense of Jesuit history insofar as the Mayan influence on the Criollo Jesuits, such as Roxas. Would this rancher also have had the foreknowledge to carve a heart under the cross?

Also, as far as the Mexican revolution, the only penalty for possession of gold would have been confiscation, and any loss of life would have been as a result of class (being a wealthy rancher), not possession of said gold. Therefore an attempt to "disown" the gold would be completely unnecessary.

He also claims that four withdrawals were made, but "Ron" says there were only 3, and as he was on the site, he would be the more informed individual. Also, IIRC, the terrain was pretty rough, so it may have simply been that the measurements were off.

If there's a lesson here, it's one I've warned people of before: don't believe everything you read in treasure magazines.

I don't recall that being encouraged by anyone on this forum.

 

[markmar]

deducer

Are you gollum's attorney ? For what I could see , gollum didn't answer to Bob , and I received as truth the Bob's version .

 

[mdog]

Considering the amount of research Mike has done, and the experience and intelligence he brings to the table, I think it a very poor choice of word to label him "misinformed." I think he has a healthy ability to distinguish between what is realistic and what is farfetched. Has Bob done similar, extensive research?

Even then, in regard to the design of the gold bars, Bob did not have "an answer for that." The strongest word he used was "probably."

I think it is too much to ask to imagine a revolution-era Mexican rancher concocting an elaborate scheme whereby he melts his coins into fake Jesuit bars, stashes them in the pattern of a cross, and leaves directions in Mayan code for rediscovery. This is a little too intricate for a rancher to have done.

This would require not just advanced education including mathematics, but also a great sense of Jesuit history insofar as the Mayan influence on the Criollo Jesuits, such as Roxas. Would this rancher also have had the foreknowledge to carve a heart under the cross?

Also, as far as the Mexican revolution, the only penalty for possession of gold would have been confiscation, and any loss of life would have been as a result of class (being a wealthy rancher), not possession of said gold. Therefore an attempt to "disown" the gold would be completely unnecessary.

He also claims that four withdrawals were made, but "Ron" says there were only 3, and as he was on the site, he would be the more informed individual. Also, IIRC, the terrain was pretty rough, so it may have simply been that the measurements were off.




I don't recall that being encouraged by anyone on this forum.

I've known many really smart Mexicans and people of Mexican heritage, my grandson for one. I don't think you spent much time thinking before you posted this.

I always read Mike's posts and have read many of the links he has posted. I don't think anybody could doubt his intellect or persistence. But if you're looking for answers you have to investigate all options.

The reason Bob said probably, I'm guessing, is because they didn't know for sure, and probably never will. Bob's post presents more options to consider.

 

[deducer]

deducer

Are you gollum's attorney ? For what I could see , gollum didn't answer to Bob , and I received as truth the Bob's version .

Mike is very capable of defending himself.

I have only stated how I view matters from a logical standview.

Not sure why you say Bob's version is "the truth." I will say that based on what I know, and based on my own research and that of others, I am inclined to treat Mike's position/version as the more realistic one.

In no way am I questioning Bob's integrity or honesty.

 

[deducer]

I've known many really smart Mexicans and people of Mexican heritage, my grandson for one. I don't think you spent much time thinking before you posted this.

Let me clarify: I am not questioning the intelligence of Mexicans ranchers during the Mexican revolution, as you are suggesting. I am questioning whether such ranchers would have seen the need to possess such arcane knowledge. If you can give me a plausible motive, then I will most certainly consider it.

I am also questioning the elaborateness of this caching scheme which I see as completely unnecessary for a rancher during the Mexican revolution. It is one thing to melt your coins into gold bars that you would bury as a means of hiding your wealth, and it is another thing to try to pass them off as Jesuit bars and engage in a complicated burial scheme.

I would imagine that your persecution during the revolution would result solely from being in possession of such wealth, irregardless of where it came from.

The reason Bob said probably, I'm guessing, is because they didn't know for sure, and probably never will. Bob's post presents more options to consider.

Not really. Bob's group's theory in regard to the 82lb caches has a big hole in it.

I'm going to do a little more reading before making any further remarks, just to be certain.

 

[markmar]

deducer

The real from realistic has a difference . The logic says how the realistic is not truthfully , but is a copy which never could be real .

 

[deducer]

deducer

The real from realistic has a difference . The logic says how the realistic is not truthfully , but is a copy which never could be real .

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[Springfield]

Spring,
All your questions have been answered several times in the now 129 pages of this thread.

Yes, and over the years I've read and enjoyed most of it. Thanks for condensing your responses to the questions I posed. Forgive me that I have no intention of re-reading the old material - if this topic was my obsession, I would, but I'm doing well finding the time to keep up with current posts. We all have our opinions about this, and no matter how positive we feel about our own positions, there's no guarantee any of us has the whole truth. I readily admit the empty spaces in my rationale, but I'm willing to change my views when I see new light. I'm going to use Oro's interesting civil court protocol to respond to your post. My 'scores' represent a broad estimate, in per cent, of my own confidence that your analysis is the true and correct answer. 'Juvenile', in deducer's opinion of me, maybe - but it saves additional typing.

1. Where are the Jesuit Mines? Very simple. Many of them were reopened and worked. Because of the mineralized nature of the entire area between Tucson and Arispe, prospectors have been crawling all over those mountains from the 1600s until the present. ...

Agreed. The plentiful anecdotal testimony from the early Anglo prospectors, miners and explorers indicate mining was done in the area prior to their arrival. Score: 90% or more.

2. How rich were they? They were exceedingly rich. They had to be, because the Spanish/Jesuits methods of refining were still very crude. If the ore was not very rich, it is a fact that the Spanish would just forget it.

I have some problems here. First, if the deposits were 'exceedingly rich' (undefined value judgement, of course, but justifying the rumors surrounding the Virgin of Guadalupe, La Purisima Conception, et al), it's my opinion that that they would have been located prior to the arrival of the Jesuits and exploited. The Spanish preceded the SJ by 150 years with a strong focus on metal beyond the Northern Frontier. Secondly, if the Jesuits were the discovers of the deposits, and they were as rich as rumors say, the Crown would have seized them, ala Planchas de Plata. I reject Oro's argument that the Spanish military would have been incapable of locating such mining operation, if they existed. My view is that the deposits, while good, have been overrated. Score: 50% or less.

3. Who operated them? Temporal coadjutors (or laybrothers). Jesuit Priests were bound by Ecclesiastical Precept not to operate any businesses for profit. They were also specifically forbidden to have anything to do (directly or indirectly) with mining.

I'll go along with this, for the most part. However, I still leave the door open that there may have been agreements with Spanish mining entrepreneurs of the day. These could have been handed the coadjutor permit for appearances sake. Score: 90% or more.

4. Where did the money go? This one is a LITTLE more problematic. Much of the money that came from what they could legally do, went to the Cabaceras and Colegios of each individual Rectorate (while Mexico was broken up into states like; Sonora, Pimeria Alta, Sinaloa, etc the Jesuits broke up the New World into Rectorates. Each Rectorate had a Cabacera [head] and a Colegio [college]). Wealth from their mining nobody is 100% certain (because it was illegal and the Jesuits were instructed to burn all their correspondences that could damage the reputation of the Order). What some of us have figured out is that there were two paths for that wealth. The one to Rome went via Matamoros to the Bay at Galveston. The path to Manilla (which began later after the Eastern Route began to get more populated), went through Caborca to Loreto (on the Baja Peninsula). From there (initially) down to Punto Cabo San Lucas, where it was secretly loaded onto Manilla Galleons. Later, another Mission (now lost) was built somewhere on the Pacific Coast of Baja for this express purpose. After it was proven that Padre Kino's theory (that California was not an island but a peninsula) was correct, the Western Route went around the Laguna Salada Area, and South into Baja. This may also be where the story of the lost Mission Santa Ysabel came from. It may have been a waystation on the trail to Cabo.

I haven't researched this aspect and will accept the Jesuits' delivery system that you've described on face value. What amount of loot sent home was precious metals is, IMO, an open question. Score: 90% plus on the protocol.

5. If the loot was once hidden in Arizona, why would we assume that it is still hidden there? This question is the MOST vexing of all! But I do have a good answer. The Order of Jesus was restored worldwide in 1814. At this time, Mexico was in the throes of its War for Independence. Mexico was in an almost constant state of war until about 1917. Much of Latin America had caught the Independence Bug. Even once the fighting was over, the places (where I believe) they hid their wealth before being arrested were becoming populated. It would have been nearly impossible for a bunch of Jesuit Priests and a train of mules to head into the mountains unnoticed. If they would have been caught transporting a muletrain full of gold and silver, all their stories of being a poor order, having no wealth, etc would have been exposed as lies. So, they let the wealth stay where it was. The Church does not have a human lifespan. The Church can afford to let that wealth sit in the ground for hundreds of years. OH, and not just in Arizona! California, Baja, New Mexico, Sonora, and maybe others.

The Jesuits have always been the smartest guys in the room and, as most will attest, the most capable too. My read on this is two-fold. First, if caches exist(ed) after 1767, they were much less significant than the rumors suggest - likely church ornamentation and some trade bullion. Secondly, these caches would have been recovered by the Jesuits if deemed important. We're not talking about meek padres leaving the New World with their tails tucked between their legs - we're talking about the Navy Seals of their time. If the rumored large caches existed, you can bet they are no longer in Arizona. Score: 50% or less.

Actually, I'm not all that far removed from you guys's claims on this thread. I just don't believe the exaggerated legends that have been attached to the reasonably solid framework. Too many unverifiable treasure stories of questionable provenance, too many mysterious documents, too many faked artifacts/recoveries. Who benefits from this kind of guile? Good question - the writers, scammers and glory-seekers, for sure. Does it end in southern Arizona, or is this just part of a larger unified treasure conspiracy? If there is such a thing, I imagine the Jesuits were (are) involved.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Springfield]

deducer, my opinion is that we don't know the truth about the '82 pounds recovery', and never will. There are several versions floating around. This ought to tell you something - maybe everyone has been misinformed. I'm done talking about it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

g'd mornng, coffee" There is a vast difference between posting an misleading article while believing it to be true and deliberately posting one that knowingly is false, as a true one,

az for gully,, outside of being a dumb arse spec force guy, he really amazas me at times one might think that he was from the USAF.

No, he is not perfect in his logic or so called facts, after all, only '''I''' am, but, he comes close.

Now aboit Tayopa and the flow of Jesuit mined metal across northern Maeico, the actual missons have to be proven I so far i have only establishied a few of the starter, or collection points, and the path ,

To prove them out I would need a small ultra light and time - a work which I would feel perfectly comfortable with
gully, as my co .

Jose the one eyed Jack de la Maancha

ps; why would they need those collection points if they weren;t miming

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

I believe Mike ( gollum ) is a great treasure hunter and everybody would feel very confortable with him as co.


Now , about your " modesty " about perfection , reminds me what I told to a student of my occupation , when he reached my capabilities :
I told him " Well done , you are the third after me " . " And who is the second ? " he asked me And I answered " I , when I am not in my best " .

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

I just don't believe the exaggerated legends that have been attached to the reasonably solid framework. Too many unverifiable treasure stories of questionable provenance, too many mysterious documents, too many faked artifacts/recoveries. Who benefits from this kind of guile? Good question - the writers, scammers and glory-seekers, for sure.

While I can agree that scammers and glory-seekers have solid motives (however counter to morals) to assign such blame to them, you have included writers here in the same breath. How does a writer gain by faked artifacts, recoveries, mysterious documents etc? I am still waiting to see a list of treasure writers/authors whom became wealthy from the profits of their treasure writings. If anything, a writer whom included false/faked info only discredits himself/herself.

I don't think anyone is proposing that the exaggerated legends are true; some of this exaggeration is probably innocent in origins, just on the basis of some kind of treasure was hidden and lost, people have sought after it, which implies that it must have great value or they would not have sought it etc and the "image" or idea of what that treasure (or mine) truly is becomes inflated from the reality. Even in reading the written word telling of such a lost treasures, some will get an inflated vision of what is being said, just from the way things are phrased.

Your point about SOME mines being over-rated is also true - the Jesuit gold mines in Baja, when taken over by the Spanish, were found to be too low grade to be able to work at a profit. However in the case of the silver mines in particular of southern Arizona, we know that the later American operators found them to be rich in silver, and produced a fairly impressive amount. I see nothing to controvert what was reported from the early American owners of the Salero, Wandering Jew, among others. Can you cite an example of a Jesuit silver mine in southern Arizona, which was proven to be LOW grade? Thank you in advance.

Your point about the operation of mines, "under the eyes" of the Spanish and yet the Spanish did nothing about it, is based on the assumption that the Spanish would definitely have done something about it if there really were such mines. Yet it has been shown that the Jesuits owned several mines and were operating very much "under the eyes" of the Spanish authorities, and not a thing was done about those either. The fact that it was illegal for religious clerics of all Orders to be mining was clearly widely ignored and/or winked at throughout Spanish America. The padres invariably would point to their colleges as the "true" owners when any one DID raise objection to it, and I am sure that had any Spaniard raised objection to the mines in Pimeria Alta, the padres would have stated the mines belong to the mission, and thus to the Indians with themselves as the legal guardians of the Indians - so had a legal ground or foundation for the mines. It is also good to keep in mind that the large majority of Spanish were Catholics, and a good Catholic would not be attacking a Catholic priest for his businesses without running the risks that entailed, and to keep in mind that the Spanish troops assigned to protect the missions, were practically (and in some cases, actually) under the orders of the padres.

One last point on this issue but we know of at least one Spanish expedition into Pimeria Alta after the departure of the Jesuits, seeking the old Jesuit mines. So the Spanish knowledge of the mines was not a complete secret either. Another factor to consider, if oblique, is the rather determined search executed by the Spanish authorities for the treasures of the Jesuits, mostly unsuccessful, but one has to suspect that the reason why the Spanish authorities were SO energetic in their searching was that they knew of the mines and what they must have produced, that there was no "official" records of these treasures being shipped out, so knew that it had to be there. Word had to have filtered up to the Royal authorities, whether through Indians loyal to the Crown or through Spanish soldiers or even visitors to the missions it is impossible to say.
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As no one seems to have answered my previous questions concerning the slag, perhaps I should address them to Cactusjumper Joe specifically, as Joe stated that he did not believe that the slag was sold. So I repeat the questions, but to Joe specifically, and of course anyone else whom wishes to reply is certainly welcome to.

I would like to see the alternate explanation for the slag piles, which I will put in bold for ease of reading;

Joe
A: do you claim that the witnesses whom reported seeing the slag piles, like Dr Williamson in 1860, were telling the truth or not?

B: if you allow that there were indeed slag heaps, what happened to them, as you dismiss the report that they were hauled off and sold for the silver content?

C: how do you explain the presence of smelter slag built into San Xavier and Tumacacori churches themselves?

On a different aspect; do you agree that there was smelting activity at the missions, while padres were running the show?

If so, where do you suppose the ore they smelted came from, if not from Jesuit (and later, Franciscan) mines?

Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco