Kirk Snapped Base or Kirk Broke Base

[Tnmountains]

Robert Overstreet Typed this point as a snapped base point. It has been "hotly" (understatement) debated by hunters and collectors since being published. I am going to show 2 examples I found in almost the exact same area if not the same area that he hunted here in Tennessee. Most examples he shows are from Tennessee. One I am showing I dug from a rock shelter the other was from an open air site. In one of his books his description on this type is as follows.

9000 to 6000 bp. Location : Southeastern to Eastern States. Description: A medium to large size,usually serrated blade with long tangs and a base that has been snapped or fractured off. The shoulders are also fractured on some examples. This proves that the fracturing was intentional as in Decatur and other types.

I do not know if it is a true type or just a broken Kirk. The examples I have show the same patina at the break or snap as the rest of the point and seems that the break or snap was done during manufacture. The quality of the knapping is very skilled though the pictures may not show it.

So is it broke or snapped? If snapped why? Feel free to post any like examples and give your opinions on what they were doing 11,000 years ago. Be nice to see other like examples for comparison.
Thanks !!





2nd knife/point

 

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[Tnmountains]

oppps

 

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[NC field hunter]

oppps

Spilled the beans!!! Better watch out.

 

[NC field hunter]

He is the author Of one of the most widely used projectile point typology guide books in the United States.

Come on Gator. No s word Bro. Perhaps my question should have ask, what makes him such a creditable member of the artifact community? I could wright a book. Doesn't mean that one word of it is true.

 

[GatorBoy]

?? There was a question I gave an answer.

 

[jamey]

hi tenn,
good looking points there,i am no way an expert on arrowheads nor one to start crap,but i think these are true and made that way,the one i had was perfect,sharp tip and no edge nicks anywere.they are like the eva kinda,halfed the same way maybe.also the bases on these also seem to break the same way?controlled breaks i think,or snapped,anyway i couldnt find anything wrong with the point to cause it to break.sure it would of caused damage somewere.

 

[tomclark]

They are either broken or reworked anciently. If a clean snap, it's broken. This is the same place other type points break at. Not a type, IMHOP.

 

[GatorBoy]

I totally agree. With that logic this otherwise perfect Newman in my hand would be a seperate type.But if I were to market it as such I could get more money for it.

 

[Tnmountains]

I often wonder if Overstreet in making his book actually created a type of his own. I mean I know guys that have been trying for years to have a new point named after them. He hunted with Lecroy. He saw the doves and lost lakes and there are a lot of these fine snapped base points so he thought that is was intentional. Does not mean that the tool was not continued to be used and resharpened even with a broke base cause it worked with or with out the base. Ok you broke the base that is fine does not matter use it anyhow.
Jamey do you have any you can show. Sure I have lots of brokes but only one is listed as a point when broke.

 

[Tnmountains]

Come on Gator. No s word Bro. Perhaps my question should have ask, what makes him such a creditable member of the artifact community? I could wright a book. Doesn't mean that one word of it is true.

Nooo you could not "wright" a book. Now with out speel check anyways hahah. Just playing. Takes a lot of time to compile something so large and there are other good books for reference or specific areas but every collector will use this as a back up. It gets corrected and better every year.

 

[11KBP]

but every collector will use this as a back up.

Guess I must be missing something, I don't have one.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Like I have said numerous times, these may very well have been used after the bases were broken off because they were still a functional Blade, but they are not a Point type. No matter how many people argue to the contrary I will never recognize these as a legitimate Point type. Just my opinion, but it is also shared by quite a few other collectors.

 

[jamey]

hi tenn,mountains
i went out this morning to find one,found everything but one.nothing ever shows up when you need it,lol...
i have one i think,but its not a good one to talk about.probally not even a kirk.tom has my good one,was talking about getting some out for the show while i was talking to him,i asked him if it was a snapped base and he said yes,he belives there a type.

 

[rock]

So what are the views and thoughts of the Ledbetter ? It is thought to be a Pickwick with a snapped base also. And guess where it is posted as such. OS#12

 

[Tnmountains]

Jamey I think it was they call one. Tom davis sure knows more than me. Is that a little bottle neck you found? I think Overstreet was romancing the stone maybe in typing that point. Think about it. He hunted with Lecroy who had a point named for him. He saw this point and all the doves lost lakes and such sent in. We see a lot of these kirks in this condition so maybe he typed it in his book because it was common to this area. His legacy will be a decent book with a point called a snapped base kirk. I wonder if we can get his story. I am assuming he is still alive ?

 

[Harry Pristis]

Who is Robert M. Overstreet? | www.arrowheads.com

He hunted with Archie Lecroy and worked with my uncle at Bowater.

I don't have Overstreet's guide. I assume that he is a collector. Guides produced by collectors have a tendency to incorporate non-professional (read that "unsupported") interpretations of the collectibles. That is, they tend to take on collector ideas and jargon to fill in gaps of knowledge.

Where a professional archie has to say (because he is peer-reviewed), "use is unknown from the available data," a collector may say, "used as a magical amulet to ward off illness." And, what collector is to say otherwise?

I have collected quite a few points in my time. I've seen many snapped at the tip, at mid-body, near the shoulders, at the tang. I've never seen one that I thought, "This is snapped off deliberately."

Based on my limited experience, including feeling very disappointed over damage to an otherwise fine point, I think that "snapped-base" points are not a valid type. I think that idea may be a wishful compensation for all the disappointment in finding so many damaged points. In other words, it's a faulty collector interpretation.

On the other hand, if there is such a thing as a snapped-base point, I simply may be rationalizing my mistake in thinking that snapped points are not worth displaying. Here's one that I have resisted displaying because of the snapped stem. Notice the natural flaw in the chert that led to the break.

​

 

[rock]

Welcome back Harry and stay a while.

 

[NC field hunter]

Guess I must be missing something, I don't have one.

You are not alone. I don't have one.

 

[NC field hunter]

I don't have Overstreet's guide. I assume that he is a collector. Guides produced by collectors have a tendency to incorporate non-professional interpretations of the collectibles. That is, they tend to take on collector ideas and jargon to fill in gaps of knowledge.

Where a professional archie has to say (because he is peer-reviewed), "use is unknown from the available data," a collector may say, "used as a magical amulet to ward off illness." And, what collector is to say otherwise?

I have collected quite a few points in my time. I've seen many snapped at the tip, at mid-body, near the shoulders, at the tang. I've never seen one that I thought, "This is snapped off deliberately."

Based on my limited experience, including feeling very disappointed over damage to an otherwise fine point, I think that "snapped-base" points are not a valid type. I think that idea may be a wishful compensation for all the disappointment in finding so many damaged points. In other words, it's a faulty collector interpretation.

On the other hand, if there is such a thing as a snapped-base point, I simply may be rationalizing my mistake in thinking that snapped points are not worth displaying. Here's one that I have resisted displaying because of the snapped stem. Notice the natural flaw in the chert that led to the break.
<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=708442"/>

Ahhh! Harry, you gave me an idea! I have no broken points. All of them are snapped tip savannah river or morrow mt. the list goes on and on. Lol. Nice to know!

 

[Tnmountains]

I agree Harry. It is kinda like romancing the stone. Good seeing you post.I wonder if people actually buy these points? Thanks for taking the time to take a picture and post a like example.

 

[paleodog]

Why even make a base when the point is being knapped, if you are going to deliberately "snap" it off after you finish the point, or shall we say, knife. I'm no expert, but IMO most are broken by farm equipment during cultivation.