Legend of the Stone Maps

[Azquester]

Seems to me they were building quite a bit of wealth embezzling funds not a far stretch to be mining for gold.
http://uair.library.arizona.edu/item/200/browse-authors/K

Joseph Basarte to the Viceroy. Review of charges against Jesuits in Californiafraud and misuse of funds for missions in Sonora, Pimeria and Nayarit.







Author(s):
Basarte, Joseph


Date:
00-00-1730


Date:
00-00-1770


Documentation:
Mexico City. May 12, 1770. 20p. Informe. Original. Dct 1730-1770.


Summary:
Review of financial and accounting abuses of Jesuits in California, Sonora, Pimeria and Nayarit. Contains a number of specific accusations against Jesuits for fraud and states that over a period of 70 years they embezzled more than one million pesos from the real hacienda. Basarte bases many of his accusations on the letters of padre Balthasar (or Baltasar) to padre general Retz which strongly indicate fraud within the Jesuit hiearchy. (D. Miller) (1978)


Persons:
Balthasar, Juan Antonio (Padre)

Persons:
Retz, Francisco (Padre General)

Persons:
Molinillo, Fransisco

Persons:
Fernandez de la Forne, Alonso

Persons:
Necora, Juan Ildephonso de

Persons:
Matheos, Joseph

Persons:
Cueto, Domingo

Persons:
Carbajal, Ana Isabel de

Persons:
Basarte, Joseph


Places:
Sonora (Provincia)

Places:
Pimeria (Provincia)

Places:
Nayarit (Provincia)

Places:
Santa Ines de Chinipas (Mision)

Places:
Toluca (Ciudad)

 

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[Azquester]

More on Jesuit Fraud.

http://uair.library.arizona.edu/item/200/browse-authors/K

Joseph Antonio de Areche to the viceroy. Pedimento fiscal concerning fraud within Jesuit society.




Author(s):
Areche, Joseph Antonio de


Date:
00-00-1720


Date:
00-00-1760


Documentation:
Mexico City. November 21, 1768. 52p. Pedimento. Original. Dct 1720-1760. Dcn 1770.


Summary:
Gives summary of various frauds perpetrated by Jesuits in Mexico- attacks Jesuits primarily for mis-use of sinodos de misiones. (D. Miller) (1978)


Persons:
Basarte, Joseph (Fiscal)

Persons:
Machado, Juan (Fiscal)

Persons:
Castro, Juan Francisco de

Persons:
Quijano, Miguel (Padre)

Persons:
Garcia, Andres

Persons:
Balthasar, Juan Antonio

Persons:
Casati, Juan Marie

Persons:
Vizconti, Ignacio

Persons:
Galvez, Joseph

Persons:
Centurion, Luis

Persons:
Retz, Francisco

Persons:
Areche, Joseph Antonio de


Places:
Texas

Places:
Mexico (Ciudad)


First Location:
AZTM. Jesuit Hist. Inst. Amer. Div., Tucson. Mf. J-02-D-08 AGN., Mexico. Misiones Vol. 22 pp. 418-444


Original Location:
AGN, Mexico, Misiones, Leg. 0022 ff. 418-444


Language:
Spanish


Rights:
To request a full text document please contact the original or first location repository; if a citation reads “AZU Film” please submit the citation to [email protected] or phone 520-621-6438.


Keywords:
Jesuits (Criticism) Mission Finances Religious Vows (Violations)


General Subjects:
Administrative Affairs Political

Title: Joaquin de Ribadeneira to Joseph Antonio de Areche. Presentation of criminal charges and demanda against Jesuits; also defense of Jesuits by Ribadeneyra.
Author(s):
Ribadeneira, Joaquin de


Date:
00-00-1700


Date:
00-00-1750


Documentation:
Mexico City. 1775. 118p. Demanda. Original. Signed. Dct 1700-1750.


Summary:
This is a group of documents concerning the investigation of Joaquin de Ribadeneira into Jesuit mis-use of funds and particularly into the administrative and accounting procedures of Juan Antonio Balthasar (S.J.). It contains the demanda's of the crown upon the Jesuit society and a Defensa of the Jesuits. Included in Ribadeneyra's defense of Jesuits is 1) Balthasar made a considerable number of mistakes in accounting for money; 2) there was a strong motive for Jesuit fraud; 3) the Jesuit's collected money for nonexistent missions. Ribadeneina presents strong case against Jesuits. (D. Miller) (1978)


Persons:
Aranda, Conde de

Persons:
Areche, Joseph Antonio de

Persons:
Galvez, Joseph de

Persons:
Balcarrel, Domingo

Persons:
Bassarte, Joseph

Persons:
Balthasar, Juan (S.J.)

Persons:
Vizconti, Ignacio (Padre General)

Persons:
Zonoytac, Miguel

Persons:
Calderon, Ignacio

Persons:
Oriuz, Bernardino (S.J.)

Persons:
Marion, Ignacio (S.J.)

Persons:
Pozo, Joachin del (S.J.)

Persons:
San Martin, Juan de (S.J.)

Persons:
Crespo, Benito (Obispo de Durango)

Persons:
Perez de Rivas, Andres (S.J.)

Persons:
Villasenor, Joseph de

Persons:
Fuirillo, Gaspar (S.J.)

Persons:
Aguirre, Manuel

Persons:
Watzek, Joseph (S.J.)

Persons:
Hierro, (Padre) (S.J.)

Persons:
Ribadeneira, Joaquin de


Places:
Santa de Puebla (Colegio)

Places:
San Xavier (Colegio)

Places:
San Ignacio de Queretaro (Colegio)

Places:
Chynipas

Places:
Cecora

Places:
Cinaloa

Places:
Sonora

Places:
Nayarit

Places:
Topia

Places:
Tepehuana

Places:
Tarahumara

Places:
San Luis de la Paz (Colegio)

Places:
San Andres (Colegio)

Places:
Oaxaca

Places:
Durango

Places:
Mayo (Rio)

Places:
Parras (Pueblo)

Places:
Parral (Pueblo)

Places:
Durango (Ciudad)

Places:
Nueva Vizcaya

Places:
Durango (Colegio)

Places:
Monterrey (Ciudad)

Places:
Tampico (Ciudad)

Places:
Santiago de los Valler

Places:
Cuernavaca (Ciudad)

Places:
Toluca

Places:
Guadalajara (Ciudad)

Places:
Madrid (Spain)

Places:
Roma (Italy)

Places:
San Fernando (Colegio)

Places:
Texas

Places:
Guadalupe de Zacatecas (Colegio)

Places:
Santa Cruz de Queretaro (Colegio)


Ethnic Groups:
Pimas


First Location:
AZTM. Jesuit Hist. Inst. Amer. Div., Tucson. Mf. J-02-D-08 AGN., Mexico. Misiones Vol. 22 pp. 464-523


Original Location:
AGN, Mexico, Misiones, Leg. 0022 ff. 464-523


Language:
Spanish

 

[Azquester]

It was not the Jesuit's but the Franciscan's north of the Xila.

http://uair.library.arizona.edu/item/200/browse-authors/K

Representation on state of missionization of Indians of Moqui province and rejection of proposal of Agustin de Campos (S.J) to allow Jesuits into area.
Author(s):
Massani, Juan Joseph (Colonel)

Author(s):
Flores Mogollon, Juan Ignacio


Date:
10-30-1714


Documentation:
Santa Fe. October 30, 1714. 9 pages. Letter. Informe. Original. Signed.


Summary:
Responding to viceroy's request, Colonel Juan Joseph Massani presents report on state of missionization of Moqui province. Both he and governor Flores Mogollon feel Franciscan efforts are worthy and reject request of Agustin de Campos (s.j) to allow Jesuits in area.


Persons:
Alencaster Noroia y Silva, Fernando de (Virrey)(Duque de Linares) Campos, Agustin de (Sj)

Persons:
Massani, Juan Joseph (Colonel)

Persons:
Flores Mogollon, Juan Ignacio (Gobernador)

Persons:
Garaycochea, Juan de(OFM)

Persons:
Miranda, Antonio de (OFM)

Persons:
Irazaula, Francisco de (OFM)

Persons:
Naranjo, Joseph (Capitan)


Places:
Moqui

Places:
Santa Fe

Places:
Sonora


Ethnic Groups:
Moquis

Ethnic Groups:
Apaches

Ethnic Groups:
Oninas

Ethnic Groups:
Mescaleros

Ethnic Groups:
Xilas

Ethnic Groups:
Chilmos

Ethnic Groups:
Pimas


First Location:
SANM, Santa Fe, Span.Arch. 1621-1821, rl. 023 fr. 0056-0061.


Original Location:
SANM, Santa Fe, Span.Arch. 1621-1821, rl. 023 ff. 0056-0061.


Language:
Spanish

 

[Azquester]

Hopi's are north of the Salt. Franciscan Magoo different sort of system.


http://uair.library.arizona.edu/item/200/browse-authors/K

Augustin de Campos (S.J.) to Juan de Artassun (S.J.). Copia de carta escrita por el Padre Augustin de Campos al Padre Juan de Artassun, tocante a la entrada, que el Benito Crespo quiere hazer en la provincia de los Moquis.
Author(s):
Campos, Augustin de (S.J.)


Date:
03-26-1725


Documentation:
San Ignacio. March26, 1725. 6p. Letter. Signed. Copy.


Summary:
Campos argues against Crespo's proposed route to Moqui (Hopi) pueblos via Chihuahua and Nueva Mexico, proposing instead he travel north from Jesuit Pima missions. Argues that Jesuits with their bases in Sonora better able to missionize the Hopis. Claims Hopis have requested Jesuits, not Franciscans. Notes his own and General Bezerra's plans to visit Moqui in 1723 via San Simon, Gila River. (T. Sheridan) (1979)


Persons:
Campos, Augustin de (S.J.)

Persons:
Artassun, Juan de (S.J.)

Persons:
Crespo, Benito (Obispo)

Persons:
Bezerra, Antonio de (General)

Persons:
Arze, Joseph de (S.J.)


Places:
San Ignacio

Places:
Guadiana (Obispado de)

Places:
Los Moquis (Provincia de)

Places:
Santa Fee

Places:
Janos (Presidio)

Places:
Xila (Gila) (Rio)

Places:
San Simon (Ojos de Agua)

Places:
Sonora

Places:
Casas Grandes

Places:
San Buenaventura

Places:
Nuevo Mexico

Places:
Pimeria

Places:
Gualpi (Walpi) (Pueblo)

Places:
Chiguagua

Places:
Zuni

Places:
San Ignacio (Mision)

Places:
San Francisco Xavier del Bac (Mision)

Places:
Moqui (Provincia)

Places:
Oraibe (Oraibi) (Pueblo, Capital)


Ethnic Groups:
Pimas

Ethnic Groups:
Moquis

Ethnic Groups:
Apaches

Ethnic Groups:
Taraumaras (Tarahumaras)

Concerning establishment, funding of new missions along costa del seno Mexicano.
Author(s):
Marmolejo, Ildephonso Joseph (Fray)

Author(s):
Gorraez, Joseph de

Author(s):
Guerrero y Tagle, Augustin Francisco

Author(s):
and others


Date:
08-20-1748


Date:
10-03-1749


Documentation:
Mexico. August 20, 1748 to October 3, 1749. 68p. Letters. Transcribed, originals, signed.


Summary:
Concerning establishment of missions along Seno Mexicano. Ff.227-230 concern 6000 pesos to be given to apostolic college of Zacatecas toward construction, ornamentation of three missions at Nuezes, Salinas, Llano. Mentions importing grain, seed, copper, iron for missions. F.236 lists distances between new missions, other places. F.237 mentions 14 projected missions in addition to new three. F.240 speaks of preparations for reduccion of Indians. F.251 general history of spread of missionization across Nueva Espana; describes how new missions will augment effort. F.256 involves to some extent rivalry between apostolic colleges of Zacatecas, Querataro vying to open more missions first, get more funding. Lists which college runs which missions. (A. Dean, may 1990)


Persons:
Marmolejo, Ildephonso Joseph (Fray)

Persons:
Escandon, Joseph (Coronel)

Persons:
Martinez de Aguirre, Jazinto (Capitan)

Persons:
Altamira, Marques de

Persons:
Gorraez, Joseph de

Persons:
Ortez, Joseph (Fray)

Persons:
Guerrero y Tagles, Augustin Francisco

Persons:
Castro Cid, Miguel de

Persons:
Fernandez Pacheco, Phelipe

Persons:
Villegas de Puente, Manuel Angel de

Persons:
Pena, Phelipe Antonio de la

Persons:
Cano Cortes, Cristoval

Persons:
Bringas, Manuel de

Persons:
Lopez de Elorza, Salvador

Persons:
Gonzalez de San Miguel, Pedro (Fray)

Persons:
Ortes de Velasco, Joseph (Fray)

Persons:
Araujo, Francisco Ramon de (Fray)

Persons:
Alcantara, Diego de (Fray)

Persons:
Pico, Juan Antonio (Fray)

Persons:
Velasco, Ophotes de (Fray)

Persons:
Ballejo, Francisco (Fray)

Persons:
Amillano, Mathias de

Persons:
Nolasco de Gaona, Pedro

Persons:
San Miguel Dominguez, Joseph de (Fray)


Places:
Seno Mexicano (Costa)

Places:
Panuco (Puerto)

Places:
Tampico

Places:
Huasteca (Provincia)

Places:
Espiritu Santo, Bahia de

Places:
Texas

Places:
San Fernando

Places:
Zacatecas, Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe de

Places:
Nueva Santander (Colonia)

Places:
Nueces (Rio)(Mision)

Places:
Salinas de la Barra (Mision)

Places:
Llano de las Flores (Mision)

Places:
Queretaro, Santisima Cruz de (Colegio Apostolico)

Places:
Gorda (Sierra)

Places:
San Fernando (Colegio Apostolico)

Places:
Coaguila

Places:
San Antonio

Places:
Horcasitas, Guadalupe de

Places:
Las Caldas, Nuestra Senora de (Mesa)

Places:
Linares, San Phelipe de (Villa)

Places:
Llanos, San Antonio de los

Places:
Pilon (Valles)

Places:
Concepcion y Purificacion

Places:
Pilon (Valle)

Places:
Mota (Valle)

Places:
Serralvo, San Gregorio de (Villa)

Places:
Gualeguas, San Nicolas de (Mision)

Places:
Tanguanchin, San Joseph (A.K.A. Soledad de las Caldas)

Places:
Soledad de las Caldas, Nuestra Senora de (A.K.A. Tanguanchin)

Places:
Andaluzia

Places:
San Dorotea (Paraje)

Places:
Xila (Rio)

Places:
Colorado (Rio)

Places:
Pimeria Alta

Places:
Sonora

Places:
Nuevo Mexico

Places:
Nueva Vizcaya

Places:
Coaguila

Places:
Oaxaca

Places:
Puebla

Places:
Mechoacan

Places:
Guadalaxara

Places:
Durango

Places:
Marianas (Islas)

Places:
Philipinas (Islas)

Places:
Peru

Places:
California (Misiones)

Places:
Guemes, San Francisco de

Places:
Llera, Santa Maria de

Places:
Santa Barbara

Places:
Horcasitas, San Juan Baptista de

Places:
Riogrande, San Bernardo de (Mision)

Places:
Philipinas (Sierras)

Places:
San Indephonzo (Mision)

Places:
San Joseph y San Francisco Solano (Mision)

Places:
San Antonio (Rio)


Ethnic Groups:
Apaches

Ethnic Groups:
Chichimecos


First Location:
AZTM, AGN, Vol. 180 ff. 227-260


Original Location:
AGN, Mexico City, Provincias Internas Vol. 180 ff. 227-260


Language:
Spanish

 

[cactusjumper]

It's a trust/personal choice thing with historians - same as with politicians, clergy and all other cultural manipulators. You make your choice and it modifies your beliefs. Good luck.

I agree with your Jesuit assessment. I think it's likely the brothers engaged in a modest amount of mining in Arizona in order to accumulate some silver for casting church bling and for use as a convenient trade medium for local purchasing. I don't have any faith in the fabulous stories in the TH "literature" purporting that they cached huge amounts of gold and silver bullion in southern Arizona. Those stories are crap IMO. I do believe it's possible that Kino and maybe other Jesuits were quietly seeking existing treasure caches in Arizona and New Mexico, based on privileged information they brought with them from Europe.

sdcfia,

Total agreement there. Something else to keep in mind about silver marked for Jesuits. Kino in particular demanded silver in payment for services and goods supplied to the mines, from the missions. In making those payments, it does not seem unreasonable that the mine owners would have the bars marked with Kino's name, or other Jesuits.

I am out of the game since 2004 and just enjoy the speculation.

Good luck to you,

Joe

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

It's a trust/personal choice thing with historians - same as with politicians, clergy and all other cultural manipulators. You make your choice and it modifies your beliefs. Good luck.

I agree with your Jesuit assessment. I think it's likely the brothers engaged in a modest amount of mining in Arizona in order to accumulate some silver for casting church bling and for use as a convenient trade medium for local purchasing. I don't have any faith in the fabulous stories in the TH "literature" purporting that they cached huge amounts of gold and silver bullion in southern Arizona. Those stories are crap IMO. I do believe it's possible that Kino and maybe other Jesuits were quietly seeking existing treasure caches in Arizona and New Mexico, based on privileged information they brought with them from Europe.

Excellent, yes I believe that, and many others. Now its my turn to give it a shot.

 

[cactusjumper]

Since there's very little in the way of rational discussion on this forum right now, I thought I'd take this up in debate.

Are you aware that on the 1702 map by Kino, there is a river on it called Rio Azul or Blau Fluss, both meaning "blue river," which later came to be known as the Verde river? As you may know the Verde River confluence isn't visible from anywhere but the Salt River Valley, so for him to have named it from a mountaintop south of the Gila isn't possible by any stretch of the imagination.

The idea that Kino marked the territory northeast of the Salt River "Moqui" is, as most are led to believe, rooted in his interest in meeting them with the goal of christening them. However, and conveniently, I may add, the naming of the Verde River originally as Rio Azul isn't an accident as Rio Azul is a name thought to have been connected to the legend of a mountain of gold, located somewhere in the vicinity of the Moqui villages, known as Sierra Azul. So Kino's goal of going there was probably twofold.



Manje did not travel with Kino on every one of his journeys as you know, he only traveled on a handful of Kino's tireless voyages. Many of those trips sometimes didn't even involve another white man, and sometimes even consisted just of Kino, his Indian servants, and a retinue of horses. As an interesting side note, the Salt River wild horses are rumored to have been introduced to the region from Kino's stock. He was known for running his horses into the ground.

So to take Manje's account of Kino as being comprehensive as far as a profile of Kino's journeys, is misleading.

And as we know, Kino's later journals and his astrolabe is missing, so likely we will never have a full understanding of what exactly he did in the Pimeria Alta.

Although Kino isn't recorded as having gone that far up north, Fr. Campos was. Fr. Campos had, in the words of none other than your favorite revisionist historian, Charles W. Polzer, "penetrated the White Mountains in search of the Moqui."

That would put him way north of the Gila River...... wouldn't it?

deducer,

Interesting but sad to see someone like you call Charles Polzer, S.J. a "revisionist historian". History meant everything to Father Polzer, and he had great respect and love for the true history of the Southwest and the Jesuits. As a "revisionist historian", in your own right, you should avoid casting such aspersions.

Father Polzer was highly respected in the opinions of his peers and colleges. I have the eulogy that was published on his death, sent to me by Diana Hadley, who was a good friend as well as a college who worked with him.

Father Polzer was proud of his work and never ashamed to sign his name to it. Those who snipe at their betters from a position of anonymity are seldom truth seekers.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Sdcfia wrote

It's a trust/personal choice thing with historians - same as with politicians, clergy and all other cultural manipulators. You make your choice and it modifies your beliefs. Good luck.

I agree with your Jesuit assessment. I think it's likely the brothers engaged in a modest amount of mining in Arizona in order to accumulate some silver for casting church bling and for use as a convenient trade medium for local purchasing. I don't have any faith in the fabulous stories in the TH "literature" purporting that they cached huge amounts of gold and silver bullion in southern Arizona. Those stories are crap IMO. I do believe it's possible that Kino and maybe other Jesuits were quietly seeking existing treasure caches in Arizona and New Mexico, based on privileged information they brought with them from Europe.

And Cactusjumper wrote:

sdcfia,

Total agreement there. Something else to keep in mind about silver marked for Jesuits. Kino in particular demanded silver in payment for services and goods supplied to the mines, from the missions. In making those payments, it does not seem unreasonable that the mine owners would have the bars marked with Kino's name, or other Jesuits.

I am out of the game since 2004 and just enjoy the speculation.

Good luck to you,

Joe

Interesting summations there - so those treasure stories which are all "crap" and can be traced directly to the very Indian people that were descendants of Indians that worked for the padres, are really talking about just enough mining activity to make a little bling for the church and perhaps a bit for trading.

This after a very lengthy debate, with numerous sources, and the fact of the immense wealth of the Jesuit Order at the time of their expulsion (and suppression) which was literally staggering. So much so that it was viewed as a real threat to the continued existence of Mexico as a Spanish colony. Why do you suppose the Spanish royal authorities were so energetic about searching for hidden wealth? For a little church bling and a few odd bits for trading?

I think a part of this "fabulous" sized treasures is occurring in the minds of the readers, magnifying the idea of treasures rather than in the authors or originators of the stories. An example is in the $40,000 worth of silver seen by visitors at the San Xavier del Bac mission, which has vanished. To me, a treasure worth some $700,000 to $800,000 <today's value> is indeed a fabulous find. Others may have different ideas of what is a fabulous treasure. We might also note that the Catholic church itself is one of the richest entities in the world as well, and how did it get that way?

It makes no sense to me at all, that any miner would cast silver bars with Kino's name or any other priests' names on them. If any name would be cast or stamped in them, it would be of the owners. Not the person to whom it was going to be paid. Also, I would like to see proof of this trading goods for silver payments at the missions. I have seen repeated complaints by the padres, that visitors were indeed coming to the missions and simply TAKING what was desired without ever offering to pay for it. Then remember that Kino himself complained about a shipment of silver bullion that went missing.

Sorry for the off-topic post there, especially as I am convinced that the Jesuits have nothing to do with the legend of the stone maps. Please do continue;
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Interesting but sad to see someone like you call Charles Polzer, S.J. a "revisionist historian". History meant everything to Father Polzer, and he had great respect and love for the true history of the Southwest and the Jesuits. As a "revisionist historian", in your own right, you should avoid casting such aspersions.

Father Polzer was highly respected in the opinions of his peers and colleges. I have the eulogy that was published on his death, sent to me by Diana Hadley, who was a good friend as well as a college who worked with him.

Father Polzer was proud of his work and never ashamed to sign his name to it. Those who snipe at their betters from a position of anonymity are seldom truth seekers.

Joe Ribaudo

In his article, "Lost Jesuit Treasure: Fact or Fancy?" in the August 1962 issue of Desert Magazine, Polzer closes with the following words:

And the simple truth is: Jesuit treasure is myth.

He doesn't just mean Arizona, but anywhere in the New World.

This flies in the face of major discoveries such as at Castillo Hill and various legends including Sacambaya, Tayopa, Virgin de Guadalupe, San Ramon, Purisma Concepcion, San Pedro, Salerno; the list goes on and on.

Many posters including Mike (Gollum), Roy (Oroblanco), Joseph (Tropical Tramp), infosponge, etc. etc. (and I) all have, on our own, and independently of each other, reached the same conclusion: the Jesuits did hoard and conceal treasure. I, personally, have been shown proof and have seen with my own eyes that such a thing does exist.

Are all of us wrong? I don't think so.

So with all that in mind, yes, Polzer is a revisionist historian, period.

In that he was also a Jesuit, I would not expect him to be otherwise.

 

[sdcfia]

1. Interesting summations there - so those treasure stories which are all "crap" and can be traced directly to the very Indian people that were descendants of Indians that worked for the padres, are really talking about just enough mining activity to make a little bling for the church and perhaps a bit for trading.

2. This after a very lengthy debate, with numerous sources, and the fact of the immense wealth of the Jesuit Order at the time of their expulsion (and suppression) which was literally staggering. So much so that it was viewed as a real threat to the continued existence of Mexico as a Spanish colony. Why do you suppose the Spanish royal authorities were so energetic about searching for hidden wealth? For a little church bling and a few odd bits for trading?

3. I think a part of this "fabulous" sized treasures is occurring in the minds of the readers, magnifying the idea of treasures rather than in the authors or originators of the stories. An example is in the $40,000 worth of silver seen by visitors at the San Xavier del Bac mission, which has vanished. To me, a treasure worth some $700,000 to $800,000 <today's value> is indeed a fabulous find. Others may have different ideas of what is a fabulous treasure. We might also note that the Catholic church itself is one of the richest entities in the world as well, and how did it get that way?

4. It makes no sense to me at all, that any miner would cast silver bars with Kino's name or any other priests' names on them. If any name would be cast or stamped in them, it would be of the owners. Not the person to whom it was going to be paid. Also, I would like to see proof of this trading goods for silver payments at the missions. I have seen repeated complaints by the padres, that visitors were indeed coming to the missions and simply TAKING what was desired without ever offering to pay for it. Then remember that Kino himself complained about a shipment of silver bullion that went missing.

5. Sorry for the off-topic post there, especially as I am convinced that the Jesuits have nothing to do with the legend of the stone maps. Please do continue;
Oroblanco

1. Correct, IMO.
2. 3,500 posts on the gollum thread alone, with, essentially, most supporting conclusions drawn from speculative arguments and most rebuttals of counterpoints presented with questionable logic, IMO. For just one example, I remember once asking: if the Jesuits were operating rich mines and caching great wealth in southern AZ, why didn't the Spanish - who had a military presence in Tubac - seize and recover same after the expulsion? The answer: they were incompetent. Hmmm, pretty hard to debate that sort of logic.
3. This is the simple crux of my doubt - what the readers have been fed: highly exaggerated or manufactured "evidence". It sullies the discussion.
4. Those Kino bars, to me, are an obvious and blatant fraud. I presented a strong argument for this on the gollum thread.
5. I agree. Assigning the stone maps to the Jesuits has always been totally unsupported. We'll never know the true story about those rocks until we find out much, much more about Pegleg Tumlinson, the man who apparently invented this "legend".

 

[Backwoodsbob]

The Jesuits did not use that kind of stone map. They used real stones

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[Azquester]

Deducer,

You can't argue with Joe he was involved with Polzer and every other historical figure you may bring up that lived or died in his life time.

The man was a regular Forest Gump.

As many times as the Missions were sacked by Indian's and Bandits it became a common practice to hide any and all church wealth located inside the facilities. So it was hidden near the Missions just in case and I believe once the missions were sacked and the Padre's murdered these treasures became the stories of legends.

That included any mine proceeds of the time held for the Church as the King required his royal fifth the Church required it's Vatican tenth. Or more if one died, and had no family, but, they wanted to be as close to God as possible. So they would give all their wealth to the Padre's whom could not spend it on their mission chain but, had to send it back to the Vatican as gathered central funds on a mule train.

Point in case Chuck Kenworthy found a small cache of gold and silver bars near the Tumacacori Mission and they had the "Kino" brand on them. Tumacacori was sacked many times over the years as was most other Mission Churches. That was just one small treasure with in sight of the mission probably seen through the bell tower for security off in the distance.

The bell tower became a guard tower during those times.

In his article, "Lost Jesuit Treasure: Fact or Fancy?" in the August 1962 issue of Desert Magazine, Polzer closes with the following words:

And the simple truth is: Jesuit treasure is myth.

He doesn't just mean Arizona, but anywhere in the New World.

This flies in the face of major discoveries such as at Castillo Hill and various legends including Sacambaya, Tayopa, Virgin de Guadalupe, San Ramon, Purisma Concepcion, San Pedro, Salerno; the list goes on and on.

Many posters including Mike (Gollum), Roy (Oroblanco), Joseph (Tropical Tramp), infosponge, etc. etc. (and I) all have, on our own, and independently of each other, reached the same conclusion: the Jesuits did hoard and conceal treasure. I, personally, have been shown proof and have seen with my own eyes that such a thing does exist.

Are all of us wrong? I don't think so.

So with all that in mind, yes, Polzer is a revisionist historian, period.

In that he was also a Jesuit, I would not expect him to be otherwise.

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Joe,

Not by you, but you seem to think that Kino did not have any secrets. That his life was as open as most of the history books say it was. Do you happen to have copies of Kino's Handwritten Diary?

Because if you did........ you might catch something very interesting. My friend in Tumacacori sent me this some years ago:

View attachment 1197531

See anything interesting on that page?

Maybe.......... a little closer.........

View attachment 1197532

See that little thing there, in the middle? Looks eerily similar to the Jesuit Symbol on that 60% gold bar from Tucson:

View attachment 1197533

Looks like a cross between that and the Swedish Steel Symbol.

But back on the ranch, why would Father Kino insert a secret symbol into his diary?

Mike

Hey guys, you mentioned the symbols in bolten's or kino's writing. Is there any of you that sees the other codes/ numbers on that page? On the zoom in at the ten a clock position. It look like 250 with a 7 above it. That's part of the code. Its on the whole page.
Well the lower part. Maybe its just me. BWB

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi, as I have mentioned, Fr Polzer was a friend of mine. Regarding Tayopa, he often said "When you open Tayopa, I will put on my best dancing shoes, and dance the first dance" Tongue in cheek remark ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Sdcfia wrote:

1.
Correct, IMO.

Well everyone is entitled to an opinion. It does seem odd that such "modest" mining activity, would have produced stories from the Indians of rich mines and treasures though. Not to mention the mines which were found by American prospectors indicating at least, energetic activity in the time of the Jesuits.

　
Sdcfia also wrote

2. 3,500 posts on the gollum thread alone, with, essentially, most supporting conclusions drawn from speculative arguments and most rebuttals of counterpoints presented with questionable logic, IMO. For just one example, I remember once asking: if the Jesuits were operating rich mines and caching great wealth in southern AZ, why didn't the Spanish - who had a military presence in Tubac - seize and recover same after the expulsion? The answer: they were incompetent. Hmmm, pretty hard to debate that sort of logic.

Hmm logic does seem to be an issue there - because you are trying to fit a SINGLE sentence to a very complex history. SOME Spanish military on the frontier were clearly led by incompetent officers, even corrupt. OTHER Spanish officers were competent enough, yet as in the case of Anza, we now know that he was a JESUIT. Do we propose that a Jesuit would turn in his brethren for mining? In most cases of Jesuit mining, the Jesuits always had some excuse handy to explain it. The mine was owned by the College, or to the Indians etc, thus dodging the repeated Royal demands that all clergy stop mining. In a few cases, mines known to have been operated by the Jesuits were immediately taken over and attempted to operate by Spanish, so clearly it was not some state secret. We can not know the full story - it appears that the mining at the various missions (Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican etc) was NOT a total secret, but certainly done quietly. Hence bishop Palafox complaint against the Jesuits, not that it was Top Secret but that it was so lucrative and potentially dangerous to the state and church.

　
Sdcfia also wrote

3. This is the simple crux of my doubt - what the readers have been fed: highly exaggerated or manufactured "evidence". It sullies the discussion.

That some unscrupulous persons have produced phony 'evidence' does not erase the mounds of smelting slag at various missions, the slag in the very walls of several missions, the found mines or some of the found treasures which were quite impressive indeed. The solid silver statue of Ignatius at Rome is another glaring example of wealth of the Order.

Sdcfia also wrote

4. Those Kino bars, to me, are an obvious and blatant fraud. I presented a strong argument for this on the gollum thread.

I am on the fence on the Kino bars. I do not know if they are genuine or fake. What markings were on the bars shipped by father Kino intended for Rome, that were "lost" or stolen en route? These belonged to the Order and/or church, what sort of markings would be logical? These bars have been debated a number of times, and now we know that Kino had complained to a superior about the loss of a shipment of silver bullion, I have to say that it is entirely possible these are the very bars that were stolen. It is also entirely possible someone made them up to use as proof for internet arguments, which would be a wee bit illogical.

Sdcfia also wrote

5. I agree. Assigning the stone maps to the Jesuits has always been totally unsupported. We'll never know the true story about those rocks until we find out much, much more about Pegleg Tumlinson, the man who apparently invented this "legend".

Well the biggest issue with linking the Jesuits to the Peralta stones (IMHO) is that there is nothing on the stone maps which is absolutely and undeniably Jesuit. Were it marked with IHS, I could then see grounds to link them. But as to Pegleg being the "inventor" of the "legend" we may never know that for certain. Pegleg may have only been another link in a long chain, and it may not be "legend" at all. Before someone writes me an angry PM on this, I could say much the same thing for most of the treasure maps in public circulation today. We do not know the provenance on most of them, most of them have been tried and tested repeatedly, without finding anything of value. In but few cases has anything valuable been found. I do support and promote treasure hunting in general, hope that more people will continue to pursue it (and thus keep it legal) but would be very cautious and skeptical about any treasure map that has been in public circulation for long, be it stone, leather, parchment, paper, bark or dirt.

On father Polzer and Burris - while they were certainly highly respected historians, it is a fact that they were Jesuits. Jesuits are sworn to defend their Order from all enemies and attacks, real and perceived. We might not take that seriously but Jesuits certainly do. For some reason the Jesuits are today (and since Polzer's article) denying they ever had treasures or mines. We have shown that they certainly had mines, and mines producing silver and gold which would be treasures. I do not know why this whitewash has been going on, but it is a whitewash and Polzer is guilty of participating. He never mentioned the mines listed in the study The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, in fact his words would have us believe there were no mines at all, the Jesuits were only out to save the souls of the heathens. If we are to trust Polzer, why did he seemingly pretend there were virtually no mines being run by the Jesuits?

<begin RANT> It is frustrating to try to debate this issue, when our skeptics keep turning to well respected historians - and the same historians that had zero interest in Jesuit mining or treasures. Historians in general focus on social events, military actions, famous leaders, rebellions etc hardly any attention is spent on mines or treasures, and if at all, it is for extremely famous persons like Genghiz Khan or Alexander the Great. At the other end of the spectrum, historians that DO focus on mining, namely the authors of mining and geological studies, HAVE made numerous references to the pioneering mining activities of the Jesuits, as well as Augustinians and other Orders. The earliest placer gold mining in Arizona is credited to an Augustinian padre for instance. These published works by researchers who DID focus on the mining history seem to carry almost no weight with our skeptics, preferring the research of historians that are focused entirely on the cultural, political and military aspects of history. Sylvester Mowry, governors of Arizona territory, even the Congressional Record refer to the Jesuit mining in Arizona - surely we should at least hold some skepticism toward Polzer et al.<\end RANT>

　
Now that we have fully derailed the topic, please do continue - and I won't press this Jesuit issue further here, rightfully it belongs in another section of the forum. My apologies again.

Oroblanco

　

 

[sdcfia]

<cut> treasure maps in public circulation today. We do not know the provenance on most of them, most of them have been tried and tested repeatedly, without finding anything of value. In but few cases has anything valuable been found. I do support and promote treasure hunting in general, hope that more people will continue to pursue it (and thus keep it legal) but would be very cautious and skeptical about any treasure map that has been in public circulation for long, be it stone, leather, parchment, paper, bark or dirt. <cut>

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true."
Demosthenes

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

You can't argue with Joe he was involved with Polzer and every other historical figure you may bring up that lived or died in his life time.

I am not arguing with Joe or expecting to change his mind on anything at all.

My only interest is to engage in discussion or debate as a way of learning more from him or from other posters, and making me do further research to verify that my counterpoints are historically accurate.

As much of a contrarian Joe is, many of the more interesting discussions on this forum and others would not be possible without him stirring the pot, so to speak.

 

[wrmickel1]

In his article, "Lost Jesuit Treasure: Fact or Fancy?" in the August 1962 issue of Desert Magazine, Polzer closes with the following words:

And the simple truth is: Jesuit treasure is myth.

He doesn't just mean Arizona, but anywhere in the New World.

This flies in the face of major discoveries such as at Castillo Hill and various legends including Sacambaya, Tayopa, Virgin de Guadalupe, San Ramon, Purisma Concepcion, San Pedro, Salerno; the list goes on and on.

Many posters including Mike (Gollum), Roy (Oroblanco), Joseph (Tropical Tramp), infosponge, etc. etc. (and I) all have, on our own, and independently of each other, reached the same conclusion: the Jesuits did hoard and conceal treasure. I, personally, have been shown proof and have seen with my own eyes that such a thing does exist.

Are all of us wrong? I don't think so.

So with all that in mind, yes, Polzer is a revisionist historian, period.

In that he was also a Jesuit, I would not expect him to be otherwise.

Deducer, yes you all could be very wrong including me to the list,
But what's without a doubt wrong is Polzer was not a Jesuit, no way shape or form was he.

Wrmickel1

 

[cactusjumper]

Deducer, yes you all could be very wrong including me to the list,
But what's without a doubt wrong is Polzer was not a Jesuit, no way shape or form was he.

Wrmickel1

Wrm,

That statement is a bit confusing. Could you explain it?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Hey gentlemen,
Let look at at that page of the Kino diary again. Why are you stopping at the one piece of code. What about the C in Como. The C has something at the top of it . Now someone said that it was the notes of polzer had taken from the diary. If it was Polzer's notes we were looking at. That mean he was a Jesuit. There is more code on that page. Look in between the lines. It is made to look like the ink from the other side bled through. Some may be but not all. Also look at the words that are bolder. Look at the small hidden messages. There is math on the page. Thats just the kind of thing I've been trying to solve myself. I look for a pattern. Notice how some of the letters are numbers.. I hope this will help. It is a Jesuit code in the writing.
Thanks Bob

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