Legend of the Stone Maps

[markmar]

Old

Can you explain , with what logic TT have carved the stone trail ( if he carved ) on two different stones , when very simple he could carved them on only one ?
Have explained TT to any friend/partner or in his manuscript what is the meaning of the removable heart ? because i have many doubts how the original paper map had instructions about ?
And , if the paper trail map was without the heart in it's box , how he could know to fit the land shapes on the stone heart ( for example , the peak on the stone trail map which fits with the CACUMEN from the Latin heart ) ?

 

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[gollum]

Mike,

I believe you are completely wrong as to Bolton's sources. I can see you are rightfully proud of your own sources, but they have little chance of approaching those of the man who was "named head of the history department at the University of California, Berkeley, in 1919 and director of the Bancroft Library in 1920; he held both positions until 1940."

"Bolton was a pioneer in the use of Spanish and Mexican archives.....".

The above highlights are by me.

Bolton's list of "Principal Archives Cited" in "Rim of Christendom" include:

Archivo General de Indias, Sevillal, Spain, Archivo General y Publico, Mexico, Bayerische, Hauptstaatsarchiv, Munechen, Germany, Bancroft Library, Berkeley, California, Biblioteca Nacional de Espana, Madrid, Bibliioteheque Nationale de France, Paris, Biblioteca Nacional de Mexico, Biblioteca del Peru, Lima, Baylerische Staatsbibliothek, Munchen, Germany, Central Archives of the Jesuit Order, Rome, Clark Library, University of California at Los Angeles,.....There are nine (9) others cited, but I am getting tired.

To continue on, you should read the Kino Writings and Correspondence" which go on for many pages.

In the end, I believe, using your characterization, you could only dream of having the sources that Bolton had. That holds true for each and every one of us who are amateur historians, and mostly holds true for myself. Do you still believe that you can equal or surpass Bolton's qualifications as a historian?

Now you may believe I have insulted you here, but if I had made such comments, I believe you have proven that you would call me on them without a second thought.

Take care,

Joe

Wrong Again My Dear Joseph,

I have ANY source that was available to Bolton, PLUS tons more. The difference between Bolton and myself is that him getting to his research materials was much more difficult than it is for me. Have you ever contacted a museum asking for assistance in finding an old document or research materials? In all the years I have been at this, I have never encountered any museum or library that was unwilling to share anything in their collections, as long as I paid for their labor in finding and copying what I needed. I also have the benefit of the fact that many museums have started putting their collections online. I don't have to call or send a letter to anybody. CLICK CLICK CICK I now have that document. Bolton could have never dreamed of having such an easy to access amount of information as we have today.

I tell you what Joe, pick ANY of the sources Bolton cited, and the item referenced (including library/museum of origin and specific info), and I bet that within a week I can get the original source material from whichever institution you name (as long as it is still in existence). You questioned my research skills, so I am willing to take the Pepsi Challenge. The only exception to the bet would be a museum or library (like Archivio Segretto Vaticano) that requires a researcher to be physically present to access files. I can still do it, but I am not flying to Rome to settle something stupid on the internet. Hell, I can get (at least) two people from here at TNet that have access to The Vatican Archives. Not counting anyone else I might know.

........and although I am using I and me, all those same sources I can access, SO CAN YOU or ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER! Its a simple question of approach. Come at people politely and humbly, and people (myself included) will go way out of their way to help most times, I have found.


....also, when it comes to Jesuit Archives worldwide, I also have something that Bolton would have creamed his jeans to have. Unfortunately, until after about 1999-2000 it was not available. It is the "Guide To Jesuit Archives" written by Father Thomas McCoog SJ:

A GUIDE TO JESUIT ARCHIVES



Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Snipped quote:

Is it your believe that a "dupe" would end up with the original ground map and hide map as their personal possessions? To be used exclusively for their singular treasure hunting purposes and later passed down to their descendants? And; that they lived unchallenged to do so? That's a real leap of faith to make an unlike connection work as concerns this story.

I have no doubt Peg Leg is Travis' source of both the ground map and the hide map. Where they came from is a mystery. But; to attribute them to a KGC larger plot is highly unlikely.

Yes, it's a definite possibility. If Pegleg had been given the map and assumed that it was genuine, then he would have acted predictably - he would have secretly tried to solve it, as most people would have. Later, his family would have inherited not only the map, but the mission too. This scenario is hardly a leap of faith, since very similar, if not identical protocols have been acted out numerous times over the decades in many locations. The last "Mexican with a leather map" example that I'm familiar with occurred ca 1978 in NM. Usually these seeds don't sprout such famous subcultures as that which the Stone Maps have evolved into.

"Dupe" may be too strong a term for Pegleg - "useful idiot", in the Stalinist sense, has been used too. It doesn't matter - the purpose was served: a diversionary legend was created that sent folks looking where the goods (whatever they are/were) weren't. Whatever of great value is hidden in the Gila/Salt region is likely unreachable using the ground map, although Stone True Believers will go to their graves believing in them.

I don't expect you or anyone else to buy into this speculation, but it makes sense and has happened before. As I've said earlier - we need to know much more about Pegleg's involvement. Hopefully Ryan will provide it. Otherwise - more of the same tail chasing.

 

[cactusjumper]

Wrong Again My Dear Joseph,

I have ANY source that was available to Bolton, PLUS tons more. The difference between Bolton and myself is that him getting to his research materials was much more difficult than it is for me. Have you ever contacted a museum asking for assistance in finding an old document or research materials? In all the years I have been at this, I have never encountered any museum or library that was unwilling to share anything in their collections, as long as I paid for their labor in finding and copying what I needed. I also have the benefit of the fact that many museums have started putting their collections online. I don't have to call or send a letter to anybody. CLICK CLICK CICK I now have that document. Bolton could have never dreamed of having such an easy to access amount of information as we have today.

I tell you what Joe, pick ANY of the sources Bolton cited, and the item referenced (including library/museum of origin and specific info), and I bet that within a week I can get the original source material from whichever institution you name (as long as it is still in existence). You questioned my research skills, so I am willing to take the Pepsi Challenge. The only exception to the bet would be a museum or library (like Archivio Segretto Vaticano) that requires a researcher to be physically present to access files. I can still do it, but I am not flying to Rome to settle something stupid on the internet. Hell, I can get (at least) two people from here at TNet that have access to The Vatican Archives. Not counting anyone else I might know.

........and although I am using I and me, all those same sources I can access, SO CAN YOU or ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER! Its a simple question of approach. Come at people politely and humbly, and people (myself included) will go way out of their way to help most times, I have found.


....also, when it comes to Jesuit Archives worldwide, I also have something that Bolton would have creamed his jeans to have. Unfortunately, until after about 1999-2000 it was not available. It is the "Guide To Jesuit Archives" written by Father Thomas McCoog SJ:

A GUIDE TO JESUIT ARCHIVES



Mike

Mike,

I stand corrected. It's become obvious to me, that you are head and shoulders above poor Bolton. Like many pioneers, he was just born too early.

I'm convinced.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Wrong Again My Dear Joseph,

I have ANY source that was available to Bolton, PLUS tons more. The difference between Bolton and myself is that him getting to his research materials was much more difficult than it is for me. Have you ever contacted a museum asking for assistance in finding an old document or research materials? In all the years I have been at this, I have never encountered any museum or library that was unwilling to share anything in their collections, as long as I paid for their labor in finding and copying what I needed. I also have the benefit of the fact that many museums have started putting their collections online. I don't have to call or send a letter to anybody. CLICK CLICK CICK I now have that document. Bolton could have never dreamed of having such an easy to access amount of information as we have today.

I tell you what Joe, pick ANY of the sources Bolton cited, and the item referenced (including library/museum of origin and specific info), and I bet that within a week I can get the original source material from whichever institution you name (as long as it is still in existence). You questioned my research skills, so I am willing to take the Pepsi Challenge. The only exception to the bet would be a museum or library (like Archivio Segretto Vaticano) that requires a researcher to be physically present to access files. I can still do it, but I am not flying to Rome to settle something stupid on the internet. Hell, I can get (at least) two people from here at TNet that have access to The Vatican Archives. Not counting anyone else I might know.

........and although I am using I and me, all those same sources I can access, SO CAN YOU or ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER! Its a simple question of approach. Come at people politely and humbly, and people (myself included) will go way out of their way to help most times, I have found.


....also, when it comes to Jesuit Archives worldwide, I also have something that Bolton would have creamed his jeans to have. Unfortunately, until after about 1999-2000 it was not available. It is the "Guide To Jesuit Archives" written by Father Thomas McCoog SJ:

A GUIDE TO JESUIT ARCHIVES



Mike

Mike,

I stand corrected. It's become obvious to me, that you are head and shoulders above poor Bolton. Like many pioneers, he was just born too early.

"Have you ever contacted a museum asking for assistance in finding an old document or research materials?"

Of course I have. They have always been eager to assist me. I realize now, that I have wasted a lot of time and money reading the works of people like Bolton, Polzer and Burris, not to mention the dozens of others I have in my library. Had I known the depth and breadth of your own personal knowledge, I could have saved tremendously.

I do wonder why you waste your time even discussing these things with me. I am just about as far down the Jesuit food chain as you can lower yourself.

I'm convinced.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, this doesn't become neither you nor Mike Even "I" am not perfect, can you imagine? sigh.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe, this doesn't become neither you nor Mike Even "I" am not perfect, can you imagine? sigh.

Don Jose,

I have spent years researching Jesuit history, and have always enjoyed debating that history. Until today, I didn't realize how Mike, over these many years, must have been laughing at my feeble attempts to share some of that flawed knowledge.

I have to wonder why he has read so many of those historians. He should have bypassed that waste of time and written his own history, and taught his own classes at the universities. I am out of my league completely in this conversation, as I am miles below Bolton, Burris, Polzer and McChesney. No reason to keep it going.

Take care,

Joe

 

[wrmickel1]

Well professor old school Joe and professor new way Mike I really don't think written research of the Jesuits will do any good. Unless you can access the Vatican. I'm real sure any and all vital documents where taken there. Your best bet is still boots on the ground' but I'm sure Joe's Danner's are getting really dusty in the closet by now. And Mikes boots are running out of time
Wrmickel1

 

[Old]

sdc, I want to make sure I'm following your theory correctly. I'm changing it up a tad just to be crystal clear.

Lets say I have valuable ill gotten works of art stashed at my house. I've gotten away with it and they have been successfully secretly hidden in my house behind a false wall. I'm fairly comfortable with that but to be sure they stay hidden forever I tell a useful idiot that they are hidden in the house next door and draw him a map to the front door of that house. I could have told him they were in the next county or the next country, but I tell him next door. He and every police officer across the country eventually start combing the neighborhood looking. Maybe they even set up a command post at my place. How am I supposed to derive any benefit from these ill gotten works of art now that the neighborhood is crawling with art hunters? Who is the real idiot in this scenario?

 

[gollum]

Joe,

So, first, you insult me, then you try and play it off like that is not what you meant. Then, you decide to be a smart*ss, and cover up your obnoxiousness by trying to make it look like I said I was better than Bolton. Never happened. I just stated a very easy to understand (for most people) fact. Maybe you didn't read this line before you decided that it would be better to be a smart*ss to me than be polite:

........and although I am using I and me, all those same sources I can access, SO CAN YOU or ANYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER! Its a simple question of approach. Come at people politely and humbly, and people (myself included) will go way out of their way to help most times, I have found.

Its not just me. YOU have the almost exact same access I do to everything you could possibly want. ANYBODY can do the exact same things I did to meet the people I have. You read my post like I am bragging. Once again, you could not be further from the truth.

I think I was pretty clear in what I stated. You seem to have read something into my statements that wasn't ever there. Lets try saying it like this, so maybe Joe can get it:

The human race has come a looong way since Herbert Eugene Bolton did his research and wrote his books. Nowadays, we have computers and the internet. People can research much of written history without ever having to leave their sofas. Between unlimited talk, text, and data, emails, online library/museum collections, and many other niceties of this generation, EVERYBODY has access to an almost unlimited amount of information on ANY subject. The Guide to Jesuit Archives Link I included is a book that ANYONE can buy for about $22. In his day, Bolton had nothing like it. If I am looking for something specific, all I have to do is look at the entry, and what Jesuit Archive it resides in. All the contact information for that library/museum is also included in the book. Not just Bolton, but ANY Jesuit researcher back in 1910 would have LOVED to have a book like that. It didn't exist until 1998-2000. Do you get what I have been trying to say? In Bolton's Day, research was much more work and much more travel. Today, ANYBODY can contact ANY of the Bolton referenced libraries/museums just like Bolton did. Today, EVERYBODY has access to a million more sources of information than Bolton did in his day.

...are you trying to say that if Bolton were alive and working in 2015, that he wouldn't see how much the internet and modern technology would have improved his research capabilities in 1910?

.......AGAIN, I will take the Pepsi Challenge. You seem to like sitting there talking crap, but I offer to stand behind what I say, and you completely ignore it, instead choosing be even more of a smart*ss than you were previously. Your replies show a LOT more about you than they do about me!

Take Care - Mike

 

[Old]

Marius,

I think the opposite question is more in order. If, as many believe, these are Jesuit or Peralta, carvings why did they make multiple stones? Surely they weren't burdened by duplicating machine parameters, as I believe Travis may have been.

I am having some difficulty understanding the rest of your question. Sorry, can you ask in a different way?

 

[sdcfia]

sdc, I want to make sure I'm following your theory correctly. I'm changing it up a tad just to be crystal clear.

Lets say I have valuable ill gotten works of art stashed at my house. I've gotten away with it and they have been successfully secretly hidden in my house behind a false wall. I'm fairly comfortable with that but to be sure they stay hidden forever I tell a useful idiot that they are hidden in the house next door and draw him a map to the front door of that house. I could have told him they were in the next county or the next country, but I tell him next door. He and every police officer across the country eventually start combing the neighborhood looking. Maybe they even set up a command post at my place. How am I supposed to derive any benefit from these ill gotten works of art now that the neighborhood is crawling with art hunters? Who is the real idiot in this scenario?

There are several. First, you - for not sending your pal to the next town instead of next door. Since you put your stash in unnecessary jeopardy, your idiocy is not particularly useful - just idiotic.

Second, the guy you gave the map to for believing that somebody gave him a real treasure map, and also and for telling others. He is being quite useful though, because he is acting as you planned he would.

Third - the horde of people who have seen your buddy use a map that has not led him to the treasure, and who have used the same map themselves with no results either. They say that repeating the same act over and over and expecting a different result is insanity. These folks are also useful to your purpose because their failures seem to encourage others to have a go at it, thus drawing more attention to the wrong location.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

So, first, you insult me, then you try and play it off like that is not what you meant. Then, you decide to be a smart*ss, and cover up your obnoxiousness by trying to make it look like I said I was better than Bolton. Never happened. I just stated a very easy to understand (for most people) fact. Maybe you didn't read this line before you decided that it would be better to be a smart*ss to me than be polite:



Its not just me. YOU have the almost exact same access I do to everything you could possibly want. ANYBODY can do the exact same things I did to meet the people I have. You read my post like I am bragging. Once again, you could not be further from the truth.

I think I was pretty clear in what I stated. You seem to have read something into my statements that wasn't ever there. Lets try saying it like this, so maybe Joe can get it:

The human race has come a looong way since Herbert Eugene Bolton did his research and wrote his books. Nowadays, we have computers and the internet. People can research much of written history without ever having to leave their sofas. Between unlimited talk, text, and data, emails, online library/museum collections, and many other niceties of this generation, EVERYBODY has access to an almost unlimited amount of information on ANY subject. The Guide to Jesuit Archives Link I included is a book that ANYONE can buy for about $22. In his day, Bolton had nothing like it. If I am looking for something specific, all I have to do is look at the entry, and what Jesuit Archive it resides in. All the contact information for that library/museum is also included in the book. Not just Bolton, but ANY Jesuit researcher back in 1910 would have LOVED to have a book like that. It didn't exist until 1998-2000. Do you get what I have been trying to say? In Bolton's Day, research was much more work and much more travel. Today, ANYBODY can contact ANY of the Bolton referenced libraries/museums just like Bolton did. Today, EVERYBODY has access to a million more sources of information than Bolton did in his day.

...are you trying to say that if Bolton were alive and working in 2015, that he wouldn't see how much the internet and modern technology would have improved his research capabilities in 1910?

.......AGAIN, I will take the Pepsi Challenge. You seem to like sitting there talking crap, but I offer to stand behind what I say, and you completely ignore it, instead choosing be even more of a smart*ss than you were previously. Your replies show a LOT more about you than they do about me!

Take Care - Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your reply.

As always, you are correct. Please continue your dialog with someone else.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[releventchair]

Old

I believe TT have never carved the stone maps . Why ? simple logic . Why to carry in his research photos of the stone maps ( with black tape on some symbols for security ) , when he could carry a photo of the original paper map ?
And , to make the stone maps ,he would need three different original maps ( if include the horse and priest ) , and how he would know how they were from the same site ?

If TT have carved the maps , then i am Michelangelo ( the sculptor ) .

A couple possibilities.
One being that there existed stone maps predating Pegleg that came into his or Travis's possession.
Another being that Travis wanted people to think he had stone maps in his possession being used to search from.
Both cases would benefit from Travis carving maps.
In the first case being valuable due to originality and age, the originals could be copied without all details in the event of theft(used as bait); or be presented if demanded by forces beyond Travis's ability to resist, legally or physically.
In the second case the Travis carved stones, even if no original pre Travis stones existed could also be surrendered or given up if demanded.
A diversion of sorts to detract from actual map(s).
Advertised through mere rumor of the stones validity would be enough, but having one in the back seat without saying anything would also sell the concept.

 

[Hal Croves]

Lynda,

I have serious doubts that "we will soon find out" anything of importance concerning the Travis Tumlinson Manuscript. People have been working for years to track down the meanings in the Stone Maps......so far, without finding anything other than landmarks (many locations) and old mines, claims and old trails.

This looks like Ryan has been bitten by the treasure bug. When that happens, historical truth will take a back seat to $$$$

I would not hold my breath waiting to "find out".

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Salient.
But your words in red don't reflect well on Ryan. Among lovers of history and truth, this is a devastating accusation. Are you saying that Ryan is intentionally misrepresenting historical fact for profit? I find that difficult to understand much less believe.

An explanation would be appreciated and may be appropriate.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe, I am reminded of the old saying that History is written by the winners, And until their 'universal' expulsion The Jesuits were the winners.

 

[gollum]

Well professor old school Joe and professor new way Mike I really don't think written research of the Jesuits will do any good. Unless you can access the Vatican. I'm real sure any and all vital documents where taken there. Your best bet is still boots on the ground' but I'm sure Joe's Danner's are getting really dusty in the closet by now. And Mikes boots are running out of time
Wrmickel1

I have plenty of time left. Unless someone is a better shot. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Well professor old school Joe and professor new way Mike I really don't think written research of the Jesuits will do any good. Unless you can access the Vatican. I'm real sure any and all vital documents where taken there. Your best bet is still boots on the ground' but I'm sure Joe's Danner's are getting really dusty in the closet by now. And Mikes boots are running out of time
Wrmickel1

Wrm,

I am reminded daily and most nights that I'm a washed up has been. I treat those old Danner's with more respect than to let them get dusty. They treated me pretty good over the years.

I think you're on the money about a trip to Rome/Mexico/Spain.....etc. being (possibly) the only way to get to many of the historical truths, at least those truths written by the priests. Since most treasure hunters believe that the Jesuits lied and the Catholic Church is hiding the true facts, it seems illogical to believe you can just stroke a few keys and get everything there is of value.

You might just think that is where the early researchers may have had an edge over people like you and I. Those folks had to dig through the actual archives to find their truths, and write their historical books. If there is something worth keeping secret, you won't have much of a chance of finding it on the Internet.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Wrm,

I am reminded daily and most nights that I'm a washed up has been. I treat those old Danner's with more respect than to let them get dusty. They treated me pretty good over the years.

I think you're on the money about a trip to Rome/Mexico/Spain.....etc. being (possibly) the only way to get to many of the historical truths, at least those truths written by the priests. Since most treasure hunters believe that the Jesuits lied and the Catholic Church is hiding the true facts, it seems illogical to believe you can just stroke a few keys and get everything there is of value.

You might just think that is where the early researchers may have had an edge over people like you and I. Those folks had to dig through the actual archives to find their truths, and write their historical books. If there is something worth keeping secret, you won't have much of a chance of finding it on the Internet.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

very true joe....i dont put much faith in anything i read online...most of it is posted by anonymous people that just copy and paste from other sites..besides if anyone had valuable hard earned information they sure wouldnt give it away by posting online

 

[gollum]

very true joe....i dont put much faith in anything i read online...most of it is posted by anonymous people that just copy and paste from other sites..besides if anyone had valuable hard earned information they sure wouldnt give it away by posting online

You would be surprised! But one thing Joe doesn't take into account is that if the Jesuits wanted certain things kept secret, an author is the last person they would share that information with.

Mike