Legend of the Stone Maps

[Eldo]

What part of the mountains were they in?

GOLD CANYON, AZ (KPHO/KTVK) - A 65-year-old woman died Wednesday evening after hiking for about 10 hours in the Superstition Wilderness area.
The Pinal County Sheriff's Office received an emergency call from a 71-year-old man at the Peralta Trailhead at 6:30 p.m., reporting that his wife had passed out on the trail about three-fourths of a mile from the trailhead.
The man said his wife was awake and breathing, but in distress when he left her to go get help.
The woman was unconscious and not breathing when rescue crews located her. They were unable to revive her and pronounced her dead on-scene.
The sheriff's office said the couple, who were visiting from Los Angeles, were experienced hikers.
No foul play is suspected.

​

 

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[wrmickel1]

What part of the mountains were they in?

Along the peralta trail head,

Wrm

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Not "soiling" anything. I have way to many books to start checking each statement you make. You are correct that none of it changes the point you were trying to make......which was? How does your point relate to Kino possibly visiting the Moqui, in secret?

Father Campos should have been a different conversation altogether. You are not "guilty" of anything, other than making a simple misstatement, and I only tried to point that out. There is no evidence that Polzer was the person who wrote that statement. Many others were involved in the data contained within and authorship of that book.

It was a mistake to pin that statement on Polzer alone. Other than the "soiling" comment, your reply is just fine......in my opinion.

Joe Ribaudo

To go back to the beginning: Mike mentioned he thought that Kino had been as far north as the Salt River, a suggestion you immediately criticized, and when he offered you an excerpt from the History of Arizona and New Mexico, you dismissed it, saying based on what you read, Kino didn’t go north of the Gila. Sorry but that doesn't hold water with me.

He furthermore showed you an excerpt from Kino’s own diary to show you that there was a lot more going on than meets the eye to which you responded dismissively and added the following insult:

it was not an insult to compare your research skills with, say Bolton's.

Which is ludicrous to me because I hold neither Bolton or Polzer to be any sort of “final” authority on the Jesuits, a proposition, where Polzer is concerned, I find equal to holding a fox as the final authority on the history of a henhouse. The fox is of course always going to say the henhouse has always been empty.

And as for Bolton, funny that you should hold his “research skills” in high esteem because his colleagues did not. Bolton, in fact, was not even an expert on Jesuit history by any means, his specialty was Spanish-American history- find below a partial critique of him from a biography by Russell Magnaghi:



And it is in this context that I brought up Campos, he being a contemporary of Kino’s. That Campos had gone as far north as the White Mountains which is way north of the Gila no matter how you put it, but Kino? Despite Kino’s being known as a fearless explorer who covered incredible distances, the important thing is, according to you, that there is no recorded account of him having gone north of the Gila, so therefore he never did.

And as Mike said, if Kino’s diaries is the final word on every single thing he did, why is it then full of ciphers? Why is one of them unaccounted for?

Instead of responding to any of those points or questions, you just took off on a tangent and zeroed on what in your mind was some sort of “mistake” i made, and gloated over it.

Did that juvenile maneuver really add anything to the discussion? I don't think so.

So when you leave the sandbox, perhaps you could respond to those questions or points intelligently, instead of dismissing them when they don’t fit your… “accepted history.”

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Sorry to hear that. We lost another Dutch Hunter, we can't afford that.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus Stew ? Stew? Love thick stew.

 

[cw0909]

these folks seem to think Father Kino got as far as the Gila and Salt

In addition to his duties as a Catholic priest, Father Kino was also an explorer and map-maker. He traveled thousands of miles exploring the Gila River region to where the Gila connects with the Salt River. He interacted with Akimel O’odham (Pima) and Tohono O’odham (Papago) and other Native American peoples, and left the first descriptions of the remains of Hohokam civilization.
Old Explorer

 

[AbTexEx]

Worst time of day in the summer is between 1pm and 6pm. The heat is far worse after it rains and
we have had way too much rain this summer. Right now it is 116 @ 14 percent humidity outside.
Usually the humidity is closer to 2 percent.


Gotta go.
We always take a 3 mile walk this time of day.
Best way to stay acclimated to this weather.


Stay safe yall


AJones

 

[cactusjumper]

To go back to the beginning: Mike mentioned he thought that Kino had been as far north as the Salt River, a suggestion you immediately criticized, and when he offered you an excerpt from the History of Arizona and New Mexico, you dismissed it, saying based on what you read, Kino didn’t go north of the Gila. Sorry but that doesn't hold water with me.

He furthermore showed you an excerpt from Kino’s own diary to show you that there was a lot more going on than meets the eye to which you responded dismissively and added the following insult:



Which is ludicrous to me because I hold neither Bolton or Polzer to be any sort of “final” authority on the Jesuits, a proposition, where Polzer is concerned, I find equal to holding a fox as the final authority on the history of a henhouse. The fox is of course always going to say the henhouse has always been empty.

And as for Bolton, funny that you should hold his “research skills” in high esteem because his colleagues did not. Bolton, in fact, was not even an expert on Jesuit history by any means, his specialty was Spanish-American history- find below a partial critique of him from a biography by Russell Magnaghi:

View attachment 1199015

And it is in this context that I brought up Campos, he being a contemporary of Kino’s. That Campos had gone as far north as the White Mountains which is way north of the Gila no matter how you put it, but Kino? Despite Kino’s being known as a fearless explorer who covered incredible distances, the important thing is, according to you, that there is no recorded account of him having gone north of the Gila, so therefore he never did.

And as Mike said, if Kino’s diaries is the final word on every single thing he did, why is it then full of ciphers? Why is one of them unaccounted for?

Instead of responding to any of those points or questions, you just took off on a tangent and zeroed on what in your mind was some sort of “mistake” i made, and gloated over it.

Did that juvenile maneuver really add anything to the discussion? I don't think so.

So when you leave the sandbox, perhaps you could respond to those questions or points intelligently, instead of dismissing them when they don’t fit your… “accepted history.”

deducer,

Yes, Kino's diaries along with Manje's are the final word on Kino's explorations. If you would like to quote non-existent works or suppositions, go right ahead. Are you also an expert on "ciphers" now? What do they say?

What do you base your "feelings" that Father Kino did go north of the Gila on? Just a hunch?

I don't really have time to gloat over every mistake you make, as they are much too numerous, but, hen house is two words. Sorry, just couldn't resist that.

Still not ashamed to sign my name to my posts.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Don Jose,

We don't know if the lady that died was a Dutch Hunter. Only that she and her husband were avid hikers. I certainly hope it wasn't anybody we know.

Joe,

It is absolutely an insult. I personally didn't know Herbert Bolton, and couldn't tell you how good his research skills were. Many writers rely on the research skills of their interns/assistants. As for myself, I can only say what I told Austin when he came after my research skills on this subject. I can read and translate all three types of Colonial Spanish Handwriting (Cortesana, Procesal, and Italica). I can even do a passable job with Chain Writing (but it takes a lot longer). Don't get me wrong, if it weren't for HE Bolton's Books, our knowledge of the Colonial Spanish New World would be MUCH less than it is today. Just like Father Polzer SJ. We couldn't be further from an agreement on much, but if it weren't for the work he did, we would be much less. Austin wound up apologizing:

APOLOGIZING POST

I have all the respect in the world for both men (RIP), but I don't agree that insulting me, then trying to cover it by saying "its not an insult to say that....". OF COURSE IT IS AN INSULT. It was rude and uncalled for. I have never insulted you like that. As a matter of fact, I have stood up for you on several occasions when different folks were coming at you. That makes the insult especially pissy sounding.


............one more thing regarding research skills; while I stated that the handwritten diary and unusual symbol on that page was provided to me by my friend in Tumacacori, why is it that Bolton never mentioned it? He was such an amazing researcher in your eyes! I am certain that since he wrote a translation of Kino's Diary, that he MUST have seen that symbol. Who sees something as unusual as that, then doesn't mention anything about it?

Deducer,

I did say that I "THINK" that Father Kino may have been as far North as the Salt. If you read and study Kino, you will see that his interests mostly lay to the West of Mission Santa Maria Magdalena, and not North. His first priority was to establish missions and evangelize Baja. His other (and not necessarily lower) priority mission was to prove that California was not an island. You can see that the greatest number of his entradas were aimed at those two things.Someone else may have been tasked with heading North (such as Father Campos SJ).

I don't claim to have all the answers. All I know is what I have read and seen. We have most of all the same books and magazine articles. I have read and seen some very great discrepancies with book history and Priests Journals. Father Polzer SJ is the source of a lot of which I have written (mostly to do with rules and precepts, and the Mission Fathers breaking them). Much of the historical discrepancies have been gone over and over in the almost 240 pages of the Jesuit Treasure Thread.

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Look guy,. Your work has not been in vain. I've learned from it. I'm sure others have to. The whole truth will come out sooner or later. Now who knows how the read this stone. If you think it's just a A.F.R. your wrong. This is the kind of stone the Jesuits would have left. Well the old order that is.
[

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

70 % humidity and 110 here, sitting in an airconditioned room, computer room. Take better care of the computer than myself.

Mike, whether she was a LDM hnter or not it is still a loss. That was to invoke a bit of sympathy for her.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Yes, Kino's diaries along with Manje's are the final word on Kino's explorations. If you would like to quote non-existent works or suppositions, go right ahead. Are you also an expert on "ciphers" now? What do they say?

What do you base your "feelings" that Father Kino did go north of the Gila on? Just a hunch?

I don't really have time to gloat over every mistake you make, as they are much too numerous, but, hen house is two words. Sorry, just couldn't resist that.

Still not ashamed to sign my name to my posts.

Joe Ribaudo

While we're at it:

Suppositions: sup·po·si·tion: ˌsəpəˈziSH(ə)n/ noun: an uncertain belief, idea, or theory.

How... exactly do I go about "quoting" an uncertain belief?

You want to stay in the sandbox, your choice.

 

[azdave35]

deducer,

Yes, Kino's diaries along with Manje's are the final word on Kino's explorations. If you would like to quote non-existent works or suppositions, go right ahead. Are you also an expert on "ciphers" now? What do they say?

What do you base your "feelings" that Father Kino did go north of the Gila on? Just a hunch?

I don't really have time to gloat over every mistake you make, as they are much too numerous, but, hen house is two words. Sorry, just couldn't resist that.

Still not ashamed to sign my name to my posts.

Joe Ribaudo

i dont really give much of a rats rear about those silly stones but they seems to really upset alot of people in here...a few of the guys here get worked up pretty bad over them...but i'll go along with joe...at least him and mike are proud enough of their research to sign their names to it...alot of you guys come in here with some pretty big talk and nobody here has any idea who you are or where you are from...IMO your research would carry more weight if you weren't incognito

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Bill,

For years now your posts have been meaningless, this one was just one more in a long line. You can still find my posts on the LDM Forum, as I don't erase them. Where are yours from that period? When will we get more names, dates and other meaningless posts like those from previous pages here?

Too many people here from the old forum who know you well. Only the new folks will give you any credibility.

Joe Ribaudo

This is not LDM, keep all conflict from there off our forums.....

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Who are y'all talking about? The one who is incognito.

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[Azquester]

Joe,

Your posts on here are just re-prints of your earlier responses out of your own posting archives. Nothing new. None of this has anything to do with the real stone map legend.

The stone maps are not good Jesuit unless good Jesuit's were into Witchcraft which there is no written history of we can read to verify. You can print that old Jesuit history re-visited pretty well. All you type is old news- been posted before by you-tell us something new not stale old posts reprinted later for that new post
"I know how to rephrase quotes from an old Jesuit history book" shock value.

Get out there and walk the walk!

Nothing we haven't heard already.

Tell us something new of value we can sink our teeth into!




"Hell I was almost there!" Elmer Fudd





Show us the money.

Bill,

Had you worked up enough nerve to actually come into our camp at that first Rendezvous, instead of standing at the back of your pickup and glaring at us, you would have been welcome to try the stew. I assume all the threats you delivered to me on the LDM Forum kept you out of reach. I have not forgotten those who did their best to throw roadblocks into the event. Still goes on today.

As for my being a "Forest Gump" type figure.........My connections are real, not imaginary, like some folks. Between my library and those source connections, many folks just can't get over their resentment.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

We don't know if the lady that died was a Dutch Hunter. Only that she and her husband were avid hikers. I certainly hope it wasn't anybody we know.

Joe,

It is absolutely an insult. I personally didn't know Herbert Bolton, and couldn't tell you how good his research skills were. Many writers rely on the research skills of their interns/assistants. As for myself, I can only say what I told Austin when he came after my research skills on this subject. I can read and translate all three types of Colonial Spanish Handwriting (Cortesana, Procesal, and Italica). I can even do a passable job with Chain Writing (but it takes a lot longer). Don't get me wrong, if it weren't for HE Bolton's Books, our knowledge of the Colonial Spanish New World would be MUCH less than it is today. Just like Father Polzer SJ. We couldn't be further from an agreement on much, but if it weren't for the work he did, we would be much less. Austin wound up apologizing:

APOLOGIZING POST

I have all the respect in the world for both men (RIP), but I don't agree that insulting me, then trying to cover it by saying "its not an insult to say that....". OF COURSE IT IS AN INSULT. It was rude and uncalled for. I have never insulted you like that. As a matter of fact, I have stood up for you on several occasions when different folks were coming at you. That makes the insult especially pissy sounding.


............one more thing regarding research skills; while I stated that the handwritten diary and unusual symbol on that page was provided to me by my friend in Tumacacori, why is it that Bolton never mentioned it? He was such an amazing researcher in your eyes! I am certain that since he wrote a translation of Kino's Diary, that he MUST have seen that symbol. Who sees something as unusual as that, then doesn't mention anything about it?

Deducer,

I did say that I "THINK" that Father Kino may have been as far North as the Salt. If you read and study Kino, you will see that his interests mostly lay to the West of Mission Santa Maria Magdalena, and not North. His first priority was to establish missions and evangelize Baja. His other (and not necessarily lower) priority mission was to prove that California was not an island. You can see that the greatest number of his entradas were aimed at those two things.Someone else may have been tasked with heading North (such as Father Campos SJ).

I don't claim to have all the answers. All I know is what I have read and seen. We have most of all the same books and magazine articles. I have read and seen some very great discrepancies with book history and Priests Journals. Father Polzer SJ is the source of a lot of which I have written (mostly to do with rules and precepts, and the Mission Fathers breaking them). Much of the historical discrepancies have been gone over and over in the almost 240 pages of the Jesuit Treasure Thread.

Mike

Mike,

I am sorry you took my comments as an insult. What I intended to infer, was that none of us, including you, have had the time and resources to research what those men and historians have had access to.

When you tell us how many Spanish dialogs you are fluent in, are you saying you have found mistakes in the translations that many historians wrote?

As for your sticking up for me, anyone with a decent sense of fair play would have done the same, but many did not want to get involved. I have done the same for you and a number of other friends.....because I have no fear of getting involved. When I feel I have done something wrong, I always apologize. In this case, comparing your skills to accepted giants in Southwest history seems reasonable, since you and deducer have both denigrated them.

Mike, I don't feel like I owe you anything. I have dealt with you more than fairly over the years. That being said, I am sorry you took my comments as insulting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

-gentleman, are we grown up or ? Relax people, 'EVEN I ' have been proven to be wrong - err slightly mistaken - on ''''extremely''' rare occasions'

 

[gollum]

Thanks Joe. On the internet, you can never exactly tell intent. Anyway, you have enough enemies as it is. To go around wanting more than you already have is just plain greedy! HAHAHA

When you say:

What I intended to infer, was that none of us, including you, have had the time and resources to research what those men and historians have had access to.

You could not be further from the truth if you tried. I have sources Bolton could only dream about. Did Bolton correspond with people at The Jesuit Curia in Rome? I have an old family friend that retired from the University of Mexico, which gives me access to the Archives in Mexico DF. The Archivo de los Indios in Seville, Spain is mostly online now. Most universities give access to their collections of period documents and artifact collections. I can get copies of Father Och SJ's journals written in their original German with a quick email or phone call to The Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley. I can study and print copies of original period documents from Arizona State's DRSW (Documentary Relations of the South West). I have instant access to much that would have taken Bolton weeks and months to get via phone, snail mail, road trips, etc.

...and honestly, Bolton is one of the more politically correct authors of Colonial Spanish History. I prefer his mentor Frederick Jackson Turner. Read his "Frontier Thesis". Bolton vehemently disagreed with it, but I put a good bit of stock in it. If you want Jesuit History Authors? I prefer Father Ernest Burrus SJ. "Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona". Father Burrus SJ did his own translations. He published papers in English, Spanish, and Both. The book I mentioned is a compendium of his translations of every one of Kino and Manje's Entradas.
Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Joe. On the internet, you can never exactly tell intent. Anyway, you have enough enemies as it is. To go around wanting more than you already have is just plain greedy! HAHAHA

When you say:



You could not be further from the truth if you tried. I have sources Bolton could only dream about. Did Bolton correspond with people at The Jesuit Curia in Rome? I have an old family friend that retired from the University of Mexico, which gives me access to the Archives in Mexico DF. The Archivo de los Indios in Seville, Spain is mostly online now. Most universities give access to their collections of period documents and artifact collections. I can get copies of Father Och SJ's journals written in their original German with a quick email or phone call to The Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley. I can study and print copies of original period documents from Arizona State's DRSW (Documentary Relations of the South West). I have instant access to much that would have taken Bolton weeks and months to get via phone, snail mail, road trips, etc.

...and honestly, Bolton is one of the more politically correct authors of Colonial Spanish History. I prefer his mentor Frederick Jackson Turner. Read his "Frontier Thesis". Bolton vehemently disagreed with it, but I put a good bit of stock in it. If you want Jesuit History Authors? I prefer Father Ernest Burrus SJ. "Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona". Father Burrus SJ did his own translations. He published papers in English, Spanish, and Both. The book I mentioned is a compendium of his translations of every one of Kino and Manje's Entradas.
Mike

Mike,

OK. Then I am back to my earlier question......Did you find any mistakes in your translation of what Bolton or Polzer had translated from whatever their sources were?

Take care,

Joe