Legends, Maps, Coincidences, Logic, and Hunches.

[cactusjumper]

Don,

I am at the store, so this is just from a very poor memory. I believe the Four Peaks clue was from the "death bed confession" in the Holmes story.

Joe

 

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[EE THr]

Joe---

Thanks.

I was browsing around for sites with clue lists, and found one that is essentially the same as the other one I mentioned, just worded so differently that it wouldn't hit on a search engine. It's on the "13 Clues" site.

c u L8r,
Don

 

[EE THr]

In case some people haven't had a chance to check out all the legendary clues, and since I posted a couple sites with the publically available maps, I'll go ahead and post some links to various sites with clues about the LDM.


Clue Lists

Where is the Lost Dutchman Mine?, on thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast Website.

13 Clues That may Help You Find the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine, on the CARE2 make a difference Website. Posted by Fred H.


The Legends

Arizona’s Mystery of the Lost Dutchman’s Mine, on the Arizona Leisure Website.

The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine of Arizona’s Superstition Mountains, on the oroblanco's new cabin Website, by Oroblanco.

Lost Dutchman Mine, on the jimmccluskey.com Website, by Jim McCluskey.

The Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine, on the All Things Adventure Website.

Lost Dutchman's Mine, on the Apache Junction Public Library Website. Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Includes extensive Bibliography.

The Lost Dutchman Mine Story, Part I, on the Kollenborn Chronicles Website, by Tom Kollenborn.

The Lost Dutchman Mine Story, Part II, on the Kollenborn Chronicles Website, by Tom Kollenborn.

The Dutchman's Lost Gold Mine, on The Old West Website, by Lee Paul.

Adolph Ruth's Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine, on the Ancesrty.com Website, by Garry Cundiff. Image of handwritten note allegedly by Ruth.

The Lost Dutchman Mine, on the Legends of America Website, by Kathy Weiser. This is in four parts, linked at the bottom.

Legend of the Lost Dutchman, The Superstition Mountains, on the Desert USA Website. Includes more links.


Full Newspaper Articles, 1894 & 1895

Original News Articles of the Jacob Waltz Story & Directions, on the Ancestry.com Website, by Garry and Carol Cundiff.


Interviews

Bob Corbin, Former Arizona Attorney General, Interview Transcript, on the Arizona PBS Website.


Links to Early LDM Information

The Adolph Ruth Story, on the Ancestry.com Website, by Garry and Carol Cundiff.

The Eleanor Clark Collection, on the Ancestry.com Website, by Garry and Carol Cundiff.


Forum Threads

How to find the Lost Dutchman mine..., on the TreasureNet Website, topic by Oroblanco.

LOST OR.....FOUND?, on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine Website, topic by Joe Ribaudo.

Timeline of Jacob Waltz and the Hunt for the Lost Dutchman Mine, 1500-1984, Ancient Lost Treasures Website, topic by John Mitchell.


Death Toll

The Lost Dutchman Death Roll, on The Life of Adventure Website.

Arizona desert searched for missing Denver man seeking gold mine, on the Denver Post Website, by Kirk Mitchell.

3rd body found in Arizona could be another Utah prospector, on the KSL-5 TV, Salt Lake City Website, story compiled with contributions from Jasen Lee and John Hollenhorst.

 

[Blindbowman]

In case some people haven't had a chance to check out all the legendary clues, and since I posted a couple sites with the publically available maps, I'll go ahead and post some links to various sites with clues about the LDM.

Where is the Lost Dutchman Mine?, on thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast Website.

13 Clues That may Help You Find the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine, on the CARE2 make a difference Website. Posted by Fred H.

Arizona’s Mystery of the Lost Dutchman’s Mine, on the Arizona Leisure Website.

Lost Dutchman's Mine, on the Apache Junction Public Library Website. Courtesy of Tom Kollenborn and the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Includes extensive Bibliography.

The Lost Dutchman Mine Story, Part I, on the Kollenborn Chronicles Website, by Tom Kollenborn.

The Lost Dutchman Mine Story, Part II, on the Kollenborn Chronicles Website, by Tom Kollenborn.

The Dutchman's Lost Gold Mine, on The Old West Website, by Lee Paul.

Adolph Ruth's Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine, on the rootsweb Website, by Garry Cundiff. Image of handwritten note allegedly by Ruth.

Legend of the Lost Dutchman, The Superstition Mountains, on the Desert USA Website. Includes more links.

Lost Dutchman Mine, on the jimmccluskey.com Website, by Jim McCluskey.

Bob Corbin, Former Arizona Attorney General, Interview Transcript, on the Arizona PBS Website.

The Lost Dutchman Mine, on the Legends of America Website, by Kathy Weiser. This is in four parts, linked at the bottom.

The Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine, on the All Things Adventure Website.

,

if they all knew so much ,then why are they writeing books ...?

 

[EE THr]

BB---

Where did I say anything other than these are legendary clues?





You know why they don't allow donkeys to go to school?

Because nobody likes a smarta$$.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning EE, you posted to BB-->

You know why they don't allow donkeys to go to school?

Because nobody likes a smarta$$.

****************

How did I get into this conversation?? snicker

Don Jose de L Mancha

 

[EE THr]

RDT---

Don't worry, you're not classified as a smarta$$, just a smartypants sometimes.

Your charm and charisma always saves you from going over the edge!

 

[EE THr]

An interesting point that I just became aware of, while searching for links to post in #102, above, is in the "Adolph Ruth's Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine, on the rootsweb Website, by Garry Cundiff."

In his .pdf, Garry says that the original source of the Ruth note, was an article written by P. C. (Pierpont Constable) Bicknell that appeared in the January 13, 1895, San Francisco newspaper. He then goes on to say that the article couldn't be located in the paper's records, or as a possible reprint by a Kansas City newspaper. He adds that the reason it wasn't located at that time, was probably because in the July 15, 1931 Prescott Courier, an article, by Ralph O. Brown, was published which repeated, word for word, a significant portion of the 1895 San Francisco Chronicle article, but listed the original as being printed in the 1892 Chronicle, three years earlier than the actual publication date.

Then it says, "There the search for the article would languish until Gregory E. Davis located the article in the mid 1980’s."

Further along in the story, he tells of visiting Greg Davis, and seeing the handwritten Adolph Ruth note, with the horizontal lines where some data is missing, and having the word "square" instead of "circle" (yet it also uses the term "diameter," which seems strange).

Although Garry doesn't state that the first quotation of the newspaper article is the original, which was finally found by Greg Davis, he does identify it as the 1895 Chronicle article, which infers that it was.

The puzzlement is twofold: Where did Mr. Bicknell, who wrote the real Chronicle article, get his version of the "directions"? And did Mr. Ruth, rather than using the Chronicle version, get the directions in his note from a different source? Possibly even from a better source?

The Chronicle article ran in 1895, yet Ruth didn't get all excited about having "the directions," and go into the Supers, until 1931. What made him decide then that he had enough good information to take action on? Had Ruth discovered additional, more convincing, evidence?

 

[Blindbowman]

An interesting point that I just became aware of, while searching for links to post in #102, above, is in the "Adolph Ruth's Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine, on the rootsweb Website, by Garry Cundiff."

In his .pdf, Garry says that the original source of the Ruth note, was an article written by P. C. (Pierpont Constable) Bicknell that appeared in the January 13, 1895, San Francisco newspaper. He then goes on to say that the article couldn't be located in the paper's records, or as a possible reprint by a Kansas City newspaper. He adds that the reason it wasn't located at that time, was probably because in the July 15, 1931 Prescott Courier, an article, by Ralph O. Brown, was published which repeated, word for word, a significant portion of the 1895 San Francisco Chronicle article, but listed the original as being printed in the 1892 Chronicle, three years earlier than the actual publication date.

Then it says, "There the search for the article would languish until Gregory E. Davis located the article in the mid 1980’s."

Further along in the story, he tells of visiting Greg Davis, and seeing the handwritten Adolph Ruth note, with the horizontal lines where some data is missing, and having the word "square" instead of "circle" (yet it also uses the term "diameter," which seems strange).

Here is the puzzlement: If Garry knew that Greg had the original Chronicle article, then why didn't he provide the words which are missing from the note, when he wrote this story?

Although elsewhere in his story, he lists several different versions of the article, he never states that any one of them are the version found by Mr. Davis, and thus the true original. This data would be significant, considering that the storyline indicates all along that the Ruth note actually originated from the Chronicle article.

Two more questions are left: Where did Mr. Bicknell get his version of the "directions"? And did Mr. Ruth, rather than using the Chronicle version, get the directions in his note from a different source? Possibly even from a better source?

The Chronicle article ran in 1895, yet Ruth didn't get all excited about having "the directions," and go into the Supers, until 1931. Had Ruth discovered additional, more convincing, evidence?

(yet it also uses the term "diameter," which seems strange)

ya that is strange ....lol

 

[EE THr]

That's about all I can do with Google Earth and the maps, I think.

Now it's time to see I there are any clues in the legend that would indicate that the final area I came up with is not the site of the rumored mine or cache of the Lost Dutchman.

Or if there is any area that could fit more of the clues.

Any suggestions?

 

[EE THr]

That's about all I can do with Google Earth and the maps, I think.

Now it's time to see I there are any clues in the legend that would indicate that the final area I came up with is not the site of the rumored mine or cache of the Lost Dutchman.

Or if there is any area that could fit more of the clues.

Any suggestions?

Well, no responses to those questions, for three days now.

So I'll ask this: Does the final area shown in this thread appear to be the closest match to the legends and maps, that has been posted so far?

 

[EE THr]

The Dutchman, Jacob Walez, passed in 1891. Here are some interesting excerpts from Original News Articles of the Jacob Waltz Story & Directions, on the Ancestry.com Website, by Garry and Carol Cundiff.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI mi buddy EE: You posted that the Indians will never show the location of this mine, just point vaguely. Hmm, not the Indians of today, IF, they knew of it's location, they would be the first there. they well know just what a $$$ is and work just as hard as anyone to earn it. Many are college educated , some are even in the mining sciences. Believe me, they would just love to find the LD mine. Besides, the $$$, what a boost it would give to their career and place in mining history.

Of course there is always the other group that exist on the gov't dole, and you can find them lying drunk on the hiway near the gov't trading post. but they are of a minority and victims of a welfare state just as many other gringos are.

Even my Yaqui friends are included in this. There are many, many treasures and excellent mines in their land, but the present generations have no idea where they might be. In fact many con a bit of a living by claiming to have intimate knowledge of this treasure, mine, or that one to milk a few dollars from an unsuspecting, drooling yori. (Gringo, Yank )

As for the older generation, now mostly dead, some actually did have knowledge of a family treasure, but were bound up in their teachings. The senior member of the family was entrusted with this information, but was also warned to never touch it, and they couldn't, even while going enthusiastically after another's treasure. At the moment I am the co-custodian of three family treasures but for political, and moral, reasons cannot touch them. Sigh
Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Even my Yaqui friends are included in this. There are many, many treasures and excellent mines in their land, but the present generations have no idea where they might be. In fact many con a bit of a living by claiming to have intimate knowledge of this treasure, mine, or that one to milk a few dollars from an unsuspecting, drooling yori. (Gringo, Yank )"

Methinketh that comment has the ring of familiarity to it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

RDT & Joe;

...And the Indians back in the day had the good sense to tell the newcomers that there was big treasure, "way over that-a-way," to get the whites to move on, and get the heck out of their yards!

 

[Old Bookaroo]

EE ther:

One of the problems with running down references to lost mine and treasure yarns is that many writers simply steal from previous works - without actually completing any original research.

The Cundiff website you linked to simply reprints - without attribution that I could find - information that may be found in Early Newspaper Articles of The Superstition Mountains and The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, compiled by Gregory Davis and published by The Superstition Mountain Historical Society (1992). Capt. Davis and Joyce Johnson located the articles, transcribed them, and published them only to have them pirated on the Internet!

The famous San Francisco Chronicle article is dated January 13, 1895. You may find it on pages 29-33 of the above publication. At the end is P.C. Bicknell's byline.

According to Thomas Probert's Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the West (Berkeley, CA: 1977), P.C. Bicknell also wrote "Where is the Silver,"Arizona Daily Gazette Nov. 5, 1894; "A Mythical Mine" Arizona Sunday Review Nov. 17, 1894; and "Dutch Jacob's Mine" Arizona Gazette August 22, 1895.

The later two articles may be found in the SMHS publication. The first article may well have been reprinted in the SMHS Journal - I didn't go through every back issue.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[EE THr]

Bookaroo;

Thanks for contributing to the thread. Additional information to round things out is, I'm sure, appreciated by all.

Although works of others are not copyrightable, research and other forms of valuable work product certainly are worthy of attribution to those who have put forth the effort to bring these things to light. I don't think I would use the terms "steal" and "pirated" to describe the making available of little known original works such as these, though, whether referring to the book authors you mentioned, or Internet authors. But I think that everyone's opinions are interesting, and do welcome them.

The Cundiff's do attribute the Chronicle article, in Adolph Ruth's Directions to the Lost Dutchman Mine, on the Ancesrty.com Website, by Garry Cundiff. Which includes a handwritten note, allegedly by Ruth, himself; and is an interesting read. This is also in my Links post, above.

When on the Internet, I always prefer links to references, rather than recommendations of books, as the links enable a more graceful continuity of thought. However, to anyone studying the history of treasure hunting, and the Lost Dutchman in particular, the books you mention sound like good sources.

It appears that the Cundiffs put a great deal of work value into their site; just as I have into this thread, with the purpose that others may enjoy browsing it, as much as I did creating it.

If you would enjoy making further contributions of your creativity to the thread, I think that would be a great idea.

 

[cactusjumper]

O.B.

I have been involved with Garry for a number of years now doing research that relates to the LDM and the history of the area. To put it simply, he has gathered a great deal of material, much of it original to Garry and our research team, and placed it in one place for all to use.

Many dollars and man/woman hours have gone into his project, and Garry has born much of that financial burden, with no thought of recompense. He has worked hand in hand with Greg Davis and the museum, as well as many members of the Dutch Hunting Community and outside of it.

A careful reading of his site will reveal many fact that have previously been unpublished and, in truth, sometimes unknown. When he knows his source, he gets permission and gives them credit for the information. He even gives individual credit to those who have worked with him.

It's still a work in progress, but anyone interested in the LDM can go to the site and get facts that would take a good deal of time and effort to find. Eventually, I believe his site will be the best single source for the historical records of the LDM. In my opinion, it will also be the most trusted.

Once again, here is the link to the site:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/Dutchman.htm

I am taking the liberty of posting Garry's introduction. It should be read carefully:
________________________________________________________

INTRODUCTION

I became interested in the Lost Dutchman Mine Story about four years ago while on a trip to Arizona that included some hiking in the Superstitions. Upon returning home, I joined a Lost Dutchman Forum. I had little background other than a few books I had read and although I may not have realized it immediately, my source material was limited. Luckily, I was almost immediately taken in by a veteran of the forum, Steve Creager. I had asked him some questions privately and he responded very openly and was extremely supportive. He began sharing a lot of detail research material that doesn't appear in books. Steve, only 51, passed away about 10 months after our initial contact, but he had me hooked.

Mainly through Steve, I became acquainted with Gregory Davis and he and I started a correspondence. Gregory must have almost every document that has been uncovered and every book that has been written relating to the Lost Dutchman. In truth, his Lost Dutchman collection is just the tip of the iceberg. His collection of historical material is truly amazing. If I had a question about some subject I was researching, Gregory had information in the mail. Many Dutch Hunters have been treated to his hospitality and access to his collection. His openness and sharing is unusual in a community where "sources and secrets" are frequently guarded closely.

I will be forever indebted to both Steve Creager and Gregory Davis and can only hope to give something back to the Lost Dutchman community.

Realizing how fortunate I was to have access to that type of material, the idea of trying to provide a venue for documents associated with the Lost Dutchman mine and the Peralta Stone Maps came about.

This collection is simply linked to my home page and perhaps someday it will receive a better home.

Adobe Reader is required to access the documents. I suspect most have this on their computer but if not, they can download a free version from numerous sites on the Internet.

Enjoy,

Garry and Carol Cundiff
______________________________________




Welcome to the conversation.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old Bookaroo]

EE Thr:

I found the "home" of that webpage. Sometimes the Cundiffs do the right thing and provide attribution, and they have sought and obtained permission of copyright holders, before posting material on the Web.

Sometimes, such as the newspaper articles they reproduced by scanning pages from a book and posting them, they don't.

Perhaps you haven't experienced the joy of visiting a website for the first time and discovering your published work, posted without your permission. I have - and as far as I am concerned, it's theft. Hard work doesn't make it right.

I hope the references provided are helpful. Diligent researchers will be able to locate those books.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Cubfan64]

EE Thr:

I found the "home" of that webpage. Sometimes the Cundiffs do the right thing and provide attribution, and they have sought and obtained permission of copyright holders, before posting material on the Web.

Sometimes, such as the newspaper articles they reproduced by scanning pages from a book and posting them, they don't.

Perhaps you haven't experienced the joy of visiting a website for the first time and discovering your published work, posted without your permission. I have - and as far as I am concerned, it's theft. Hard work doesn't make it right.

I hope the references provided are helpful. Diligent researchers will be able to locate those books.

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

I can't disagree with you enough OB when it comes to your feelings about Garry's website an Ancestry. To state that they "sometimes" do the right thing and provide attribution is simply incorrect - they OFTEN do this. When it comes to Lost Dutchman stories and documentation, I have yet to see anyone else provide as much factual information with extensive sources as Garry does.

If you didn't read what CJ posted above carefully enough, read it again. I can't begin to tell you the number of side projects Garry has worked with and for Greg Davis and the SMHS on.

Your use of words and tone suggests that you believe the majority of Garry's site is comprised of pirated and stolen information. That's quite simply untrue and leads me to believe you have not spent enough time there to see that yourself.