LUE clue...the Obit of Hardrock Hammond

[sdcfia]

Thanks Sdcfia. If you go further south in Lincoln County, you run into Capitan Peak. I missed the San Isidro Lake, good one. For those of you who don't know, Sdcfia and I like to study maps and run lines. We've found some interesting connections. Sdcfia has the best one. It involved the Peace Garden at the U.S. and Canadian border.

I have a thread in the Treasure Legends forum titled Something New About the LUE, in it, I write about Black Mountain, Colorado and Capitan Peak. This is the line Sdcfia and me were looking at. These lines could be important to LUE researchers. Capitan Peak is on another treasure line that starts at the Oak Island money pit and ends at Victorio Peak. There is an alleged Captain Kid treasure legend on that line as well, I write about that one in my thread in the KGC forum titled, Things For Further Research.

Yes, Capitan Peak. I never associated it with the LUE, but why not? There's not a lot of information that has yet surfaced on the alleged Aztec treasure in the Capitans, or the alleged staircase that leads down into Capitan Peak. As you mentioned, Capitan Peak is on line between two major sites. Just a coincidence, I guess. Ha ha. People ought to start drawing lines on Google Earth - they'd probably be surprised where those lines go, eh dog?

 

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[PatrickD]

Hi Guys,

If you would so allow me to contribute a small amount of info for your consideration, it would be appreciated. Hopefully the information will be of use.

Karl firmly believed that the LUE was Spanish in Origin. That map came to him from Hardrock Hammond (not to be confused with another associate Hardrock Hendricks.). It was on loan and they copied it. The original was returned. Now, I have heard two versions. It was returned to the historical society in Santa Fe. I queried on this and it was a firm 'no'. I cannot recall the other group's name off of the top of my head but I can get it from my notes if needed. Daughters of something or other. Again, no. No one there now has any knowing of such a document/map. I consider these two leads as dead ends unless someone can get into their archives.

Llorro Urracca Enterrari.

Llorro - Tears/I cry. (Origin - High/Noble Spanish)
Urracca - Blackbird (Origin - High/Noble Spanish)
Enterrari - To Bury - Conjugated as Buried. (Origin - Latin)

I have a personal belief on this. I believe there were multiple LUE cache sites. They mined and smelted then stored up enough to justify a shipment back to Spain. Each smaller area feeding to a central cache site like Black Lake, etc. Then there was THE central collection cache site. The quantities of anything remaining in these sites would be based on which part of the operation they were in. I ask myself two questions. 1. Who would be educated enough during the mid to end 1700s in this location to speak both Spanish proper and Latin? (I realize that the symbols along the 105 could be exclusively or combination of Spanish, French, Native American, Pioneer/Settler/Miner, Outlaw and potentially Aztec if you make that connection. The dates get blended along a recorded timeline from the mid 1500s to 1800s.) Of all these, the only persons who would have spoken noble Spanish and Latin were most likely priests. 2. Why would anything be handwritten on the geometric map? (My answer is that the words were something the map holder did not want to forget, like maybe a clue to the big cache site. Putting one of the words that the peons would not be able to translate from Latin make it a simple code of sorts.) I stopped referring to the Spanish cache sites as the LUE treasure because the name is a misnomer and would not have been used by the Spaniards. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Karl believed that the Black Lake site was not fully cleared out. The silver bars obtained were melted into jewelry charms, crosses, horned lizards, etc and sold retail.

The site on the west end of Taos was also believed to be LUE related. Both Hammond and Von Mueller found a cache of silver bars. They were only able to carry a few of them out when local ranch hands saw them and started riding toward them. The ranch hands on horses, our two heroes walking. They ran to water (creek/river, I don't recall). They stashed most of the bars carried in the bank and kept a couple they could easily carry and skedaddled.

I have to thank Randy for reminding me about the Salida spot. That is not too far from me. From what I know driving that highway and going either north toward Leadville or south into the San Luis valley is where more cache sites are supposed to be.

In some of my book research, I got the GPS location for every place gold has been documented in Colorado. Then I applied that to recovery locations and potential cache sites. By my estimation, there should be two or three more cache sites on the NE of the San Luis valley. Both Karl and my father looked for a cache site several times on Mount Blanca. The sealed cache site I found with those symbols carved on it was south of La Veta. All of these are still within the 105 or high 104. These areas are chock full of Spanish trail markers. On a sidenote, one of the BLM departments published reports online (I think it was BLM). The reports were geographic indicators for likelihood of finding precious metals/minerals. It lists Mount Blanca as 'high potential for gold'. Mount Blanca has public lands on it. All the gold I am aware of in this area is alluvial. So, that narrows down places the Spaniards would have been and the cache sites would be found following a trail of some sort.

I spoke with one of the foremost experts on Celestial Navigation. He is in Britain. I showed him the map and asked if he could deduce anything in it that would be used to indicate a location. This is where it gets a little interesting. Short answer is 'yes'. Using the Z shapes in the arrowhead and the isoperimetric curves, the Longitude indicator near the eye shape, and a few other elements,,,,, He pegs Utah. I asked how and he explained it all. Here is the interesting part. He was using Greenwich as the Prime Meridian. I asked how he could get to the 105 from the map. He readjusted the prime meridian to a longitude in Spain. He explained there were numerous prime meridians back then depending on who was using them.

I have more but don't want to cause anyone a drink from a firehose.

Good luck guys! I hope you find an amazing discovery.

Patrick

 

[PatrickD]

Here is something that will bring a smile to your face. Randy reminds me a lot of Karl.

 

[nmth]

Rebel, Sdcfia, Randy and Old Bookaroo, thank you for your feedback. I was looking for a San Francisco Peak that might be close to the 105 degree longitude. The best I could find is a small community in Colorado that is pretty close.

Santa Fe de San Francisco de Asisi was/is a popular place located at the far end of 105. Silly CA/NY shopping-mall invaderstoday just know it as Santa Fe.

Maybe a peak visible or noteworthy from there in the way back when. East, perhaps?

IIRC try:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865348200/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

or Treasure of the Sangre de Cristos by Arthur Campa.

Some hermit on Truchas peak or therebaouts kind of a theme floating around. Also, an "indian broke his promise to his band and took us there but we got greedy and he left in the night". All IIRC - YMMV ETC TGIF WTFriendly.

Maybe someday I'll "get" the LUE. For now, too much math in my day job. More fundamentally, how would I ever know if my assumptions were correct? Math is a wide-open wonderland. Chances of me persoanlly finding (*which REQUIRES actual recovery*) any LUE anything even if I tried: about epslion+ away from zilch, if that.

One last thougt though: I'd be wary of ascribing the mapmakers with much more navigational/cartographic precision than was available at the time that the map was supposed to have been first produced. Alternately: "Aliens!"

Good Luck.

 

[PatrickD]

Hi Everyone,

I was going through some of my notes and letters collection and found some other references to potential LUE cache sites. They are worth sharing but I don't want to hijack any public thread with too many posts. Also, since this is a thread about LUE clues and Hardrock, it seems a fitting tribute to them rather than a distraction.

These are just written on 3X5 cards so I have no way of verifying the information. The sources were my father's and also KVM notes.

- Blue Lake Cache "Cache of gold bars and slugs" french "+" marked (I am assuming that is french cross?
- Lordsbury New Mexico (See also Hachita peak cache - Straight south of the Beacon 45 degrees from Beacon and Hachita NM - west of Howells well - N. side of peak. On the reverse side it has a diagram with the note Big Hatchet Mountains.
- Rye Colorado Cave of Gold NE of Green Horn Peak

I have a lot of other letters to go through. Unfortunately, I think there is still some in boxes that need to be unpacked from the move.

Patrick

 

[mdog]

Yes, Capitan Peak. I never associated it with the LUE, but why not? There's not a lot of information that has yet surfaced on the alleged Aztec treasure in the Capitans, or the alleged staircase that leads down into Capitan Peak. As you mentioned, Capitan Peak is on line between two major sites. Just a coincidence, I guess. Ha ha. People ought to start drawing lines on Google Earth - they'd probably be surprised where those lines go, eh dog?

Yes, surprised and confused. I wonder if the cache recoveries along the 105 longitude were made from information found on the LUE map or from some other source of information. Maybe Karl and the others, who made recoveries, had additional information that hasn't been made public. Don't know. Anyway, it seems that the caches were hidden using the method we've talked about.

 

[sdcfia]

Santa Fe de San Francisco de Asisi was/is a popular place located at the far end of 105. Silly CA/NY shopping-mall invaderstoday just know it as Santa Fe.

Maybe a peak visible or noteworthy from there in the way back when. East, perhaps?

IIRC try:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865348200/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

or Treasure of the Sangre de Cristos by Arthur Campa.

Some hermit on Truchas peak or therebaouts kind of a theme floating around. Also, an "indian broke his promise to his band and took us there but we got greedy and he left in the night". All IIRC - YMMV ETC TGIF WTFriendly.

Maybe someday I'll "get" the LUE. For now, too much math in my day job. More fundamentally, how would I ever know if my assumptions were correct? Math is a wide-open wonderland. Chances of me persoanlly finding (*which REQUIRES actual recovery*) any LUE anything even if I tried: about epslion+ away from zilch, if that.

One last thougt though: I'd be wary of ascribing the mapmakers with much more navigational/cartographic precision than was available at the time that the map was supposed to have been first produced. Alternately: "Aliens!"

Good Luck.

I found this book even more interesting: https://smile.amazon.com/Lost-Gold-Mine-Juan-Mondrag%C3%B3n/dp/0816509778/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&qid=1481643958&sr=8-1&keywords=juan+mondragon Interesting surname.

Despite all the hoopla, I've never really "gotten" the LUE either. That map, I guess, is the reddest red flag for me. I can't look at it and not think, "Art Deco", a design style strongly rooted in the 1930s. Like so many other treasure tales, I suspect the LUE is some sort of covert action disguised as "Spanish", but actually a more modern phenomena. I can't speak to Miller and the other players in this particular drama because I have no information that I can personally support. I've heard both sides of Miller from those who claim to have known him. It's all hearsay, good and bad, IMO. I generally tend to support the theory that many or all of the "Spanish cache" legends were actually born during the time ca 1913 (Federal Reserve created) to 1930s (FDR's Gold Act).

 

[mdog]

Hi Everyone,

I was going through some of my notes and letters collection and found some other references to potential LUE cache sites. They are worth sharing but I don't want to hijack any public thread with too many posts. Also, since this is a thread about LUE clues and Hardrock, it seems a fitting tribute to them rather than a distraction.

These are just written on 3X5 cards so I have no way of verifying the information. The sources were my father's and also KVM notes.

- Blue Lake Cache "Cache of gold bars and slugs" french "+" marked (I am assuming that is french cross?
- Lordsbury New Mexico (See also Hachita peak cache - Straight south of the Beacon 45 degrees from Beacon and Hachita NM - west of Howells well - N. side of peak. On the reverse side it has a diagram with the note Big Hatchet Mountains.
- Rye Colorado Cave of Gold NE of Green Horn Peak

I have a lot of other letters to go through. Unfortunately, I think there is still some in boxes that need to be unpacked from the move.

Patrick

Thanks Patrick, for the information. Do you know if the Rye, Colorado location was noted because of something found on the LUE map?

 

[mdog]

I found this book even more interesting: https://smile.amazon.com/Lost-Gold-Mine-Juan-Mondrag%C3%B3n/dp/0816509778/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&qid=1481643958&sr=8-1&keywords=juan+mondragon Interesting surname.

Despite all the hoopla, I've never really "gotten" the LUE either. That map, I guess, is the reddest red flag for me. I can't look at it and not think, "Art Deco", a design style strongly rooted in the 1930s. Like so many other treasure tales, I suspect the LUE is some sort of covert action disguised as "Spanish", but actually a more modern phenomena. I can't speak to Miller and the other players in this particular drama because I have no information that I can personally support. I've heard both sides of Miller from those who claim to have known him. It's all hearsay, good and bad, IMO. I generally tend to support the theory that many or all of the "Spanish cache" legends were actually born during the time ca 1913 (Federal Reserve created) to 1930s (FDR's Gold Act).

I agree with you on the dates. I wonder if there were any Spanish treasure legends associated with the cache recoveries along the 105 line. The placement of the caches, some of them anyway, seems to be organized along that line.

Sdcfia, I have a question for you. You know about metals, Patrick says that the silver from the Black Lake site was melted down and formed into jewelry, if some of that jewelry could be found, do you think it could be analyzed for information that might be useful?

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with you on the dates. I wonder if there were any Spanish treasure legends associated with the cache recoveries along the 105 line. The placement of the caches, some of them anyway, seems to be organized along that line.

Sdcfia, I have a question for you. You know about metals, Patrick says that the silver from the Black Lake site was melted down and formed into jewelry, if some of that jewelry could be found, do you think it could be analyzed for information that might be useful?

By "useful information", I assume you mean where the silver originated, that is, where was the mine? In my opinion, if this is what you're looking for, I'd say your chances would be essentially nil.

Some folks claim that, theoretically, every mineral recovery has a unique chemical fingerprint that can be compared to a database in order to identify not only which mine, but which specific vein within that mine, that the sample may have come from. This might be feasible in a perfect world, except that no comprehensive database of mined veins exists which can be used to compare the sample with. Not even close. One in a thousand chance, maybe one in many thousands, to match the ore.

Let's assume the silver ore was smelted into bullion before it was used to make the silver jewelry. It may be possible to match the jewelry to the bullion, but that would not provide the location of the mine itself, unless you had prior knowledge of where the bullion was mined in the first place.

 

[mdog]

By "useful information", I assume you mean where the silver originated, that is, where was the mine? In my opinion, if this is what you're looking for, I'd say your chances would be essentially nil.

Some folks claim that, theoretically, every mineral recovery has a unique chemical fingerprint that can be compared to a database in order to identify not only which mine, but which specific vein within that mine, that the sample may have come from. This might be feasible in a perfect world, except that no comprehensive database of mined veins exists which can be used to compare the sample with. Not even close. One in a thousand chance, maybe one in many thousands, to match the ore.

Let's assume the silver ore was smelted into bullion before it was used to make the silver jewelry. It may be possible to match the jewelry to the bullion, but that would not provide the location of the mine itself, unless you had prior knowledge of where the bullion was mined in the first place.

Thanks, Sdcfia. Would it be possible to get some idea of when the bullion was smelted or if melted coin were used to make the bars? If it's impossible to find a place, I think it would be interesting to find a time.

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks, Sdcfia. Would it be possible to get some idea of when the bullion was smelted or if melted coin where used to make the bars? If it's impossible to find a place, I think it would be interesting to find a time.

I don't know how the time of smelting could be determined.

As far as whether or not coins were used, US silver coins in all denominations were minted at 0.900 fineness (the other 10% was copper for better durability). Older native American silversmiths (such as Navajos) used to melt coins for their castings, as it was readily available and pretty close to the Sterling Silver grade of 0.925 fineness. You've raised an interesting point - silver bullion bars that assay at 90% silver/10% copper could well have been made from coins.

 

[PatrickD]

Thanks Patrick, for the information. Do you know if the Rye, Colorado location was noted because of something found on the LUE map?

Hi MDog,

Those were 3X5 cards filed with LUE notes. These are targets but not recovered to my knowledge.

 

[PatrickD]

I agree with you on the dates. I wonder if there were any Spanish treasure legends associated with the cache recoveries along the 105 line. The placement of the caches, some of them anyway, seems to be organized along that line.

Sdcfia, I have a question for you. You know about metals, Patrick says that the silver from the Black Lake site was melted down and formed into jewelry, if some of that jewelry could be found, do you think it could be analyzed for information that might be useful?

I still have one of the horned lizards somewhere.

 

[mdog]

Hi Patrick. Do you have a picture of the silver lizard you could post. Maybe I'll run across one. Also, did Karl put an identifying mark on his jewelry?

 

[mdog]

Hi MDog,

Those were 3X5 cards filed with LUE notes. These are targets but not recovered to my knowledge.

Thanks Patrick. I want to make sure I get this right, the Rye location was a potential target but there is nothing on the card saying the location was targeted because of a clue found on the LUE map?

 

[nmth]

Hi Everyone,

I was going through some of my notes and letters collection and found some other references to potential LUE cache sites. They are worth sharing but I don't want to hijack any public thread with too many posts. Also, since this is a thread about LUE clues and Hardrock, it seems a fitting tribute to them rather than a distraction.

These are just written on 3X5 cards so I have no way of verifying the information. The sources were my father's and also KVM notes.

- Blue Lake Cache "Cache of gold bars and slugs" french "+" marked (I am assuming that is french cross?
- Lordsbury New Mexico (See also Hachita peak cache - Straight south of the Beacon 45 degrees from Beacon and Hachita NM - west of Howells well - N. side of peak. On the reverse side it has a diagram with the note Big Hatchet Mountains.
- Rye Colorado Cave of Gold NE of Green Horn Peak

I have a lot of other letters to go through. Unfortunately, I think there is still some in boxes that need to be unpacked from the move.

Patrick

Gawd, that's some lonely and wild country down there at Hachita. I know the Hachita area well (as well as any greenhorn) especially little Hachets and Howells area. Even saw some bandit action once down there. I've posted somewhere before about the hard to get to gold vein still just waiting and a'baking under the sun. There's a high-grade silver mine with tons of ore stockpiled up there, too, but I have not had it assayed. It goes 'beep' (with the right machine and user) so it's enriched. Others of my circle found a weapons exchange point once in the 80's. Smugglers Gap - go figure. There are some curious things in the area... Heard rumors of a treasure down there from a cowpoke once, but no details. Big Hatchets are intimidating and harder to get to from what I've been told. Lots of things on my list for down there. Now a new one. Thanks!

Don't know the Lordsburg one either. Not as familiar with that area, though I pass by often and know the Burros and other ranges nearby. There's a draw with my uncommon family name not too far from there. I'll issue another Green Chile Cheeseburger challenge to the first one to guess it. PM replies only, please, but I'd prefer the burger in person - not sure how I win such a bet myself... One guess only, so an exhaustive search won't work unless you come up with "N" aliases to ask with.

What's a "Beacon" - is that like Bacon: good on everything (including Green Chile cheeseburgers?)

SO, back to the LUE - my reaction to the style of the map is similar to sdcfia, but when I hear "recovered" my ears perk up and I think about my boots 'cuz seeing real and rare things is where the magic is at.

 

[nmth]

Corrections:
1) Beacon. Got it.
2) U Bar ridge was the hard to get to place.
Thanks again!

 

[mdog]

I don't know how the time of smelting could be determined.

As far as whether or not coins were used, US silver coins in all denominations were minted at 0.900 fineness (the other 10% was copper for better durability). Older native American silversmiths (such as Navajos) used to melt coins for their castings, as it was readily available and pretty close to the Sterling Silver grade of 0.925 fineness. You've raised an interesting point - silver bullion bars that assay at 90% silver/10% copper could well have been made from coins.

Thanks Sdcfia. Who would do an assay. I don't know of any asseyors where I live. Could an archeologist do something like that?

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

Good stuff guys,thanks. Iam all fired up to go treasure hunting. Iam counting the days,like a kid waiting on santa.