LUE clue...the Obit of Hardrock Hammond

[PatrickD]

Thanks Patrick. I want to make sure I get this right, the Rye location was a potential target but there is nothing on the card saying the location was targeted because of a clue found on the LUE map?

You are asking me to remember stuff from when I was a kid. As I recall, these locations were deduced from the map quadrant. There is really only one section of the Sangre de Christos that match the mountain outline. Karl, my father and another friend claimed to have broken part of the code. Their process was rudimentary by today's standards and would be considered shallow and some guestimation in my opinion. It also involved a slide rule. (The slide rule and 3 X 5 cards are making me sentimental. Imagine what they could have done with the tools we have at our fingertips.)

I have a bunch of these 3 X 5 cards with notes and crude maps were drawn on. Others are just reference materials like how to research basic stuff way before we had google. There is also a bunch of letters with confidential conversations and stuff. I cannot speak to the validity of any of these leads. They might be worth following up on, they might be the result of incorrect analysis? You can judge for yourself as I don't have much else to go on except the front and back of the 3X5 card.





It was definitely associated with the LUE based on input from KVM and my father. I am pretty sure they did not make any recovery from this location.

Edit: Just noticed the letter in the background. Its in a binder of letters. I thought of posting some of KVMs letters up but there is so much that would have to be lined out due to inappropriate comments by today's standards. Every time I read any of his letters, I hear Archie Bunker. Great sense of humor and I thought it was funny how he referred to his wife as Broom Rider. He was also very generous with his expertise and knowledge. A great role model for treasure hunters. Just don't think certain comments would be acceptable according to TOS.

If anyone is actually researching this and needs to collaborate information, I can check through the stuff. Its what Randy does and it is what Karl would have done.

Patrick

 

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[PatrickD]

Hi Patrick. Do you have a picture of the silver lizard you could post. Maybe I'll run across one. Also, did Karl put an identifying mark on his jewelry?

Hi MDog,

I may have spoken too soon. I went out in the barn and dug through several boxes that haven't been unpacked yet before finding my father's old briefcase. There used to be one of the little silver horned toads in there. It was not. That means it is either in my TH war room/man cave or at my brother's house in Texas. If it is downstairs, I will get a photo tomorrow. If not, don't hold your breath.

They really weren't that impressive. They were about an inch long maybe 1/4 inch tall (as a horned lizard from foot to top of head) and maybe 3/4 inch wide. I remember seeing baggies of these when I was a kid. I know we still have one somewhere and will try to find it so you can see. I don't remember any marks on them.

Patrick

 

[mdog]

Hi MDog,

I may have spoken too soon. I went out in the barn and dug through several boxes that haven't been unpacked yet before finding my father's old briefcase. There used to be one of the little silver horned toads in there. It was not. That means it is either in my TH war room/man cave or at my brother's house in Texas. If it is downstairs, I will get a photo tomorrow. If not, don't hold your breath.

They really weren't that impressive. They were about an inch long maybe 1/4 inch tall (as a horned lizard from foot to top of head) and maybe 3/4 inch wide. I remember seeing baggies of these when I was a kid. I know we still have one somewhere and will try to find it so you can see. I don't remember any marks on them.

Patrick

Thanks for going to the trouble, Patrick. I'll start looking around for the piece you describe, maybe I'll get lucky.

 

[South Sea mariner]

You are asking me to remember stuff from when I was a kid. As I recall, these locations were deduced from the map quadrant. There is really only one section of the Sangre de Christos that match the mountain outline. Karl, my father and another friend claimed to have broken part of the code. Their process was rudimentary by today's standards and would be considered shallow and some guestimation in my opinion. It also involved a slide rule. (The slide rule and 3 X 5 cards are making me sentimental. Imagine what they could have done with the tools we have at our fingertips.)

I have a bunch of these 3 X 5 cards with notes and crude maps were drawn on. Others are just reference materials like how to research basic stuff way before we had google. There is also a bunch of letters with confidential conversations and stuff. I cannot speak to the validity of any of these leads. They might be worth following up on, they might be the result of incorrect analysis? You can judge for yourself as I don't have much else to go on except the front and back of the 3X5 card.

View attachment 1391283

View attachment 1391284

It was definitely associated with the LUE based on input from KVM and my father. I am pretty sure they did not make any recovery from this location.

Edit: Just noticed the letter in the background. Its in a binder of letters. I thought of posting some of KVMs letters up but there is so much that would have to be lined out due to inappropriate comments by today's standards. Every time I read any of his letters, I hear Archie Bunker. Great sense of humor and I thought it was funny how he referred to his wife as Broom Rider. He was also very generous with his expertise and knowledge. A great role model for treasure hunters. Just don't think certain comments would be acceptable according to TOS.

If anyone is actually researching this and needs to collaborate information, I can check through the stuff. Its what Randy does and it is what Karl would have done.

Patrick

Hello Patrick thanks for being gracious enough posting those letters are a treasure in itself.

Mal

 

[Randy Bradford]

Karl firmly believed that the LUE was Spanish in Origin. That map came to him from Hardrock Hammond (not to be confused with another associate Hardrock Hendricks.). It was on loan and they copied it. The original was returned. Now, I have heard two versions. It was returned to the historical society in Santa Fe. I queried on this and it was a firm 'no'. I cannot recall the other group's name off of the top of my head but I can get it from my notes if needed. Daughters of something or other. Again, no. No one there now has any knowing of such a document/map. I consider these two leads as dead ends unless someone can get into their archives.

Llorro Urracca Enterrari.

Llorro - Tears/I cry. (Origin - High/Noble Spanish)
Urracca - Blackbird (Origin - High/Noble Spanish)
Enterrari - To Bury - Conjugated as Buried. (Origin - Latin)

Patrick

Just curious Patrick, have you ever seen first hand confirmation that Karl assigned these words to the LUE letters? The only print version I've ever seen comes from Boyd Jolley who printed a 1980s article in Treasure Magazine where he quotes Karl from a letter he allegedly had. Karl never printed those words in any book or NPG that I'm aware of. It would be nice to see his specific attribution to this part of the puzzle. I know he said LUE came from the first three letters of words on the map, which in itself is interesting when you read THM7 where he says he reprinted the map exactly as it appeared. I've always assumed the words were written on the back so that he could honestly say he produced the map as it appeared while explaining the absence of the words.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Hmmm... I thought LUE = "Lloro, Urraca, and Enterrari"; it DOES sound Spanish...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Black Gold is buried... OIL! Heh... (Playing Beverly Hillbillies "theme song").

 

[mdog]

Seeing as how it's common knowledge that some LUE map related caches have been recovered along the 105 longitude, I've been looking at the map to try to figure out how they came up with 105. The only thing I can see that might take anybody there would be the number of subdued lines in the vertical column. You have 1 on top, 10 in the center (going vertical) and 5 on the bottom. If that is what they were looking at, than maybe the arrow shows latitude limits along the 105. The 3 subdued lines in the shaft could be 30 and the 1 inside the arrowhead could mean 31 deg latitude for the lower limit. There are 8 points on the arrowhead so maybe that means 38 deg latitude for the upper limit.

 

[PatrickD]

00000000000

Seeing as how it's common knowledge that some LUE map related caches have been recovered along the 105 longitude, I've been looking at the map to try to figure out how they came up with 105. The only thing I can see that might take anybody there would be the number of subdued lines in the vertical column. You have 1 on top, 10 in the center (going vertical) and 5 on the bottom. If that is what they were looking at, than maybe the arrow shows latitude limits along the 105. The 3 subdued lines in the shaft could be 30 and the 1 inside the arrowhead could mean 31 deg latitude for the lower limit. There are 8 points on the arrowhead so maybe that means 38 deg latitude for the upper limit.

Hi Guys,

Good questions. I don't think there is anything special about the 105 except geographics. If one were to come north from Mexico into New Mexico, the mountain ranges sort of funnel into one of two sides. The mountain ranges open up into the San Luis Valley (and on either side.) For example, on the east side of the mountains would take one north through Las Vegas, Cimarron, Raton, Trinidad. On the inside of the valley would be Taos to Del Norte and the San Luis valley into Poncha and Salida. There is also water on both sides of these mountain ranges which would have been critical to staying in an area. The great divide also has a lot of exposed gold just from Geographic formations from the tectonic plate which has eroded into alluvial gold over time. I read somewhere that the Rockies used to be 5,000 feet taller than they are now.

As for the map itself, I have seen several copies of it over the years. Most are the same, some have a few variations. The copies I remember seeing around the house when I was a kid, including ones brought over by visitors including Karl, did not have the words written on them. There have been a couple with words on them. If it were me transcribing the original map, it would have included words. I remember seeing versions with the words both on the front and on the back but written by the treasure hunter holder of the map copy. I cannot afford these more credibility than the random theories one finds on the internet these days. I used to have a copy of one with the words on it. Its around somewhere but I cannot validate who wrote on it. The words are on the front and in the lower right area of the map.

I have taken their base information that is in my Treasure Hunting hand me downs. I have expanded on the details as well as gained skills they didn't have to utilize such as navigating with a sextant. I have run a lot of research from the known locations and potential cache sites. I don't think the map is going to totally be utilized until the IAYAYAM key is figured out. There are three different cyphers this type of key fits into but without a starting key, reference or transposition of letter shifting that it will be figured out. I do suggest avoiding some of the theories circulating that are the creation of treasure hunter theorists but have no basis of being utilized historically.

There are also anomalies in this region that somehow tie in but not sure exactly. As an example, one is a round circle on the ground on the ridge of the San Luis Valley, it is white chalk like with three holes in the middle slightly larger than a grown person's finger. There is different colors in each of these holes. The holes line up and have a view of the San Dunes.

Its a lot like putting together a jigsaw puzzle upside down when you don't know how many pieces exist or what the final picture is. So, after years of staring at that map, I set it aside and sought reconstructing the history. This is going under the assumption that it is Spanish in origin. I am unable to make a connection to any other group that would have or could have been in the area such as Nazi's, French, Aztec, etc. But if you reconstruct the documented historical expansion and superimpose the theoretical or points taken at face value because it is the only information available (such as the named recovery sites) it fits like a glove.

I stepped back and took a different approach reconstructing the activities through other logistical means. FOr example, if there was a worked cache site, how many people were there back in the day? Where did they camp? Where did they get water? Where did they go to the bathroom. Then, comparing that information to known documented gold/silver locations. Knowing the gold is alluvial really narrows down where they could have been to find anything. In EACH of these target spots, I have found Spanish trail markers.

The trick is to stay objective and not get married to any idea that it had to be a certain thing, method, location, etc. If any treasure lead cannot be followed historically, then filter out what doesn't fit. It really comes down to breaking the code on the map or reconstructing historically then superimposing the results. So much of this time period was undocumented or the journals and orders have been hidden away in some historical archive.

My personal opinion is that we collectively stand a better chance of finding the cache sites by sharing information which is not the normal inclination of treasure hunters who want to keep their efforts and analysis secret.

To me, there is a big hole in the research regarding the map. I can take someone to spots where the map fits perfectly with the geography. But, I have not yet met the person who can cite the origin of the map, the current location, the accuracy of the map copies, etc. I remember listening to my father, Karl and a couple other treasure hunters sitting around the kitchen table and discussing aspects of the map as well so they did not have it broken either. The biggest progress I think was having the navigation expert in Britain use it and peg the general location.

So, yes, I am a LUE hunter. More specifically, I like to hunt the Spanish Cache sites and just accept that the map is one of the puzzle pieces. I have found much more knowing the region and using logic to locate stuff then retrofitting it to the map than decoding the map and following that. Its kind of like solving a maze by starting at the end and retracing to the beginning.

The fatal flaw is not knowing exactly what time period the map was drawn. I have heard many opinions on this and many of them make sense including the questions and challenges. Also, going on partial information such as the origin of Latitude (y coordinates) on maps date back to Claudius Ptolomy (90 - 168). These are well documented in his 8 volume Geographica. So assuming that Latitude was not used until the 1700s is an incorrect assumption that can misguide a navigator or treasure hunter.

I just don't want to get stalled trying to figure out the map when the same locations can be deduced with logic and analysis. That means I put less emphasis on the map and more on field research. I know I am in a general area when the trail markers are found. It would be like taking the recovery location at Black Lake or Mora and then backtracking the trail from the end toward the beginning.

These are just my thoughts on the subject.

Patrick

 

[sdcfia]

I don't doubt that there are gold caches in many locations - lots of them in the western states. However, I don't believe that they are "Spanish". There is no conceivable reason that Spanish miners would be capable enough to finance and equip an expedition to locate, extract and accumulate gold in uncharted territory, then put it back in the ground before returning home. Why? Maybe in a very rare case, sure, but not to the extent that has been "reported". Lots of people claim that the Spaniards were caching the Royal Fifth for the King's men to retrieve later. Not true - this is not the way the King received his share. Educate yourself on the mining laws and methods of the time. Gold caches? Yes, but they are not Spanish.

Silver? Valuable, yes, but the Spanish had more silver than they could possibly extract in Mexico, and easily accessible with quite workable logistics. Why would Spanish miners travel all the way to New Mexico, Colorado, et al for silver? Gold, yes; but silver?

 

[PatrickD]

Randy,

I scanned a letter that will really make you rethink parts of the LUE. I sent you a copy.

Just not sure it should be posted in a public forum.

P.

 

[PatrickD]

I don't doubt that there are gold caches in many locations - lots of them in the western states. However, I don't believe that they are "Spanish". There is no conceivable reason that Spanish miners would be capable enough to finance and equip an expedition to locate, extract and accumulate gold in uncharted territory, then put it back in the ground before returning home. Why? Maybe in a very rare case, sure, but not to the extent that has been "reported". Lots of people claim that the Spaniards were caching the Royal Fifth for the King's men to retrieve later. Not true - this is not the way the King received his share. Educate yourself on the mining laws and methods of the time. Gold caches? Yes, but they are not Spanish.

Silver? Valuable, yes, but the Spanish had more silver than they could possibly extract in Mexico, and easily accessible with quite workable logistics. Why would Spanish miners travel all the way to New Mexico, Colorado, et al for silver? Gold, yes; but silver?

Hi sdcfia,

Glad to see you around.

The theory posted kind of conflicts with a few sites found. For example, that Cave of Gold with the Spanish Cross over the entrance is well documented and used by the spelunkers now.

Good to inject alternate thoughts to keep us balanced.

Thanks for that,

Patrick

 

[sdcfia]

Hi sdcfia,

Glad to see you around.

The theory posted kind of conflicts with a few sites found. For example, that Cave of Gold with the Spanish Cross over the entrance is well documented and used by the spelunkers now.

Good to inject alternate thoughts to keep us balanced.

Thanks for that,

Patrick

Hey, Patrick. Remember - I said there were likely a very few rare cases to contradict my general opinion. That painted cross in Colorado is interesting, but the Spanish were more likely to make use of simple Christian crosses (often three crosses, or a cross on a pedestal). The Cave of Gold cross was a Maltese Cross if I remember correctly, which changes the narrative considerably.

 

[PatrickD]

Well, yes and no. What I refer to as a Spanish cross looks like the maltese cross or the Iron Cross metal used by Germany. The symbol is older than that though.

The best reference I can give is the history of Spanish in America. The Spaniards held and settled this entire area essentially from the 1500s until that little incident with the French. So, 300+ years. Not all of the miners were conquistadors. Although there is references where one of the expeditions left behind groups of men to mine, it seemed to be the major past time during that time. The other backup I would reference is the amount of symbols that match the Spanish treasure/trail signs and markers. There is also the mix of those Spanish settlers who integrated with the local Native Americans and had offspring. A good example of this is the La Muneca treasure lead story.

I ran across a really good book lately and would recommend it for reading:

The Spanish American Frontier 1783 - 1795 by Arthur Preston Whitaker. This one was published in 1962. Great documentation of the activities.

Here is the contents:

(Introduction by Samuel Eliot Morison) (One 'r' int he last name)
I. Rival Empires
II. Protagonists and the Field of Action
III. The Spanish Barrier
IV. THe Westward Courses
V. Gardoqui's Mission
VI. The Chevalier of the Order of St. Louis
VII. Intrigue and Immigration
VIII. The Union Preserved
IX. Yazoo
X. Nootea
XI. Hector, Baron de Carondelet
XII. The French Revolution and the Spanish Empire
XIII. The Intrigue Infallibles
XIV. San Lorenzo: a Frontier Treaty
Notes
Index

There are also many maps in this book.

For what it is worth, I like your approach to treasure hunting.

Patrick

 

[PatrickD]

I am pretty sure that Hardrock has traipsed all of these places.

Here is another one of those 3X5 cards with notes and a map.





I hope these are helpful to your treasure hunting.

Good luck! I hope you find the big one!

Patrick

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hmmm... I thought LUE = "Lloro, Urraca, and Enterrari"; it DOES sound Spanish...

Hello Rebel

Its seems odd Spanish and French.

Lloro and Urraca is in formal Spanish "I cry, magpie" Enterrari is French for Burial. Yet Mexican as well as my native Chilean have many localized informal words spoken.

Mal

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TY, Mal!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Dr. Roy Roush, Ph.D. was a friend of Karl, even "Hardrock"... AND! HE thought it (LUE) was "connected" with the Knights of the Golden Circle, who DID use the old "signs" of the Spanish, Indians, Outlaws in the American SW; mainly in New Mexico & Colorado. KvM moved to the little "ghost town" of Segundo, Colorado... northern border of New Mexico. Hmmm...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

00000000000

Hi Guys,

Good questions. I don't think there is anything special about the 105 except geographics. If one were to come north from Mexico into New Mexico, the mountain ranges sort of funnel into one of two sides. The mountain ranges open up into the San Luis Valley (and on either side.) For example, on the east side of the mountains would take one north through Las Vegas, Cimarron, Raton, Trinidad. On the inside of the valley would be Taos to Del Norte and the San Luis valley into Poncha and Salida. There is also water on both sides of these mountain ranges which would have been critical to staying in an area. The great divide also has a lot of exposed gold just from Geographic formations from the tectonic plate which has eroded into alluvial gold over time. I read somewhere that the Rockies used to be 5,000 feet taller than they are now.

As for the map itself, I have seen several copies of it over the years. Most are the same, some have a few variations. The copies I remember seeing around the house when I was a kid, including ones brought over by visitors including Karl, did not have the words written on them. There have been a couple with words on them. If it were me transcribing the original map, it would have included words. I remember seeing versions with the words both on the front and on the back but written by the treasure hunter holder of the map copy. I cannot afford these more credibility than the random theories one finds on the internet these days. I used to have a copy of one with the words on it. Its around somewhere but I cannot validate who wrote on it. The words are on the front and in the lower right area of the map.

I have taken their base information that is in my Treasure Hunting hand me downs. I have expanded on the details as well as gained skills they didn't have to utilize such as navigating with a sextant. I have run a lot of research from the known locations and potential cache sites. I don't think the map is going to totally be utilized until the IAYAYAM key is figured out. There are three different cyphers this type of key fits into but without a starting key, reference or transposition of letter shifting that it will be figured out. I do suggest avoiding some of the theories circulating that are the creation of treasure hunter theorists but have no basis of being utilized historically.

There are also anomalies in this region that somehow tie in but not sure exactly. As an example, one is a round circle on the ground on the ridge of the San Luis Valley, it is white chalk like with three holes in the middle slightly larger than a grown person's finger. There is different colors in each of these holes. The holes line up and have a view of the San Dunes.

Its a lot like putting together a jigsaw puzzle upside down when you don't know how many pieces exist or what the final picture is. So, after years of staring at that map, I set it aside and sought reconstructing the history. This is going under the assumption that it is Spanish in origin. I am unable to make a connection to any other group that would have or could have been in the area such as Nazi's, French, Aztec, etc. But if you reconstruct the documented historical expansion and superimpose the theoretical or points taken at face value because it is the only information available (such as the named recovery sites) it fits like a glove.

I stepped back and took a different approach reconstructing the activities through other logistical means. FOr example, if there was a worked cache site, how many people were there back in the day? Where did they camp? Where did they get water? Where did they go to the bathroom. Then, comparing that information to known documented gold/silver locations. Knowing the gold is alluvial really narrows down where they could have been to find anything. In EACH of these target spots, I have found Spanish trail markers.

The trick is to stay objective and not get married to any idea that it had to be a certain thing, method, location, etc. If any treasure lead cannot be followed historically, then filter out what doesn't fit. It really comes down to breaking the code on the map or reconstructing historically then superimposing the results. So much of this time period was undocumented or the journals and orders have been hidden away in some historical archive.

My personal opinion is that we collectively stand a better chance of finding the cache sites by sharing information which is not the normal inclination of treasure hunters who want to keep their efforts and analysis secret.

To me, there is a big hole in the research regarding the map. I can take someone to spots where the map fits perfectly with the geography. But, I have not yet met the person who can cite the origin of the map, the current location, the accuracy of the map copies, etc. I remember listening to my father, Karl and a couple other treasure hunters sitting around the kitchen table and discussing aspects of the map as well so they did not have it broken either. The biggest progress I think was having the navigation expert in Britain use it and peg the general location.

So, yes, I am a LUE hunter. More specifically, I like to hunt the Spanish Cache sites and just accept that the map is one of the puzzle pieces. I have found much more knowing the region and using logic to locate stuff then retrofitting it to the map than decoding the map and following that. Its kind of like solving a maze by starting at the end and retracing to the beginning.

The fatal flaw is not knowing exactly what time period the map was drawn. I have heard many opinions on this and many of them make sense including the questions and challenges. Also, going on partial information such as the origin of Latitude (y coordinates) on maps date back to Claudius Ptolomy (90 - 168). These are well documented in his 8 volume Geographica. So assuming that Latitude was not used until the 1700s is an incorrect assumption that can misguide a navigator or treasure hunter.

I just don't want to get stalled trying to figure out the map when the same locations can be deduced with logic and analysis. That means I put less emphasis on the map and more on field research. I know I am in a general area when the trail markers are found. It would be like taking the recovery location at Black Lake or Mora and then backtracking the trail from the end toward the beginning.

These are just my thoughts on the subject.

Patrick

Hmmm; "anomalies"...? "(R)ound circle on the ground on the ridge of the San Luis Valley. etc." INTERESTING! LUE Map DOES have 2 circles; take it from there...

 

[Old Bookaroo]

sdcfia: Agreed. Look at the haul from the Atocha - she went on the reef in what, the 1640's? Hundreds of thousands of silver coins and a relative handful of gold. Gold went to Spain immediately.

I remember when KvonM was selling silver arrowheads cast from the bars he and Hammond found.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo