Metal detecting LAWS? Please read this and respond

[spisswgt]

Here I was thinking I could metal detect in public parks and other places... then I read this crap about "if you dig anything over 100 years old you can be thrown in jail" stuff.... someone check out this website and please let me know if its bull or not. From the looks of this site, if you read everything on it, it sounds like an archaeologist can tell us or threaten us any way they like when we find something. If it is true, how do all you guys get away with pulling these awesome finds outta the ground? I know it says ghost towns in the link but it speaks about MD'ing everywhere.

http://www.metal-detecting-ghost-towns-of-the-east.com/metaldetectinglaws.html

 

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[CWnut]

good link, but way too much reading this early in the morning. AS A RULE nearly all state parks prohibit detecting with certain exceptions, such as recovering a recently lost item. But this must be done with permission and under supervision of the park rangers. Most city and county parks allow detecting as long as recovery methods are meticulous, but this can vary greatly, depending on the attitude of local authorities. Although most city and county parks don't have laws prohibiting detecting, where they get you is "destruction of city/county property". And again, local attitudes will vary on what is considered acceptable or not.

Always follow the metal detector "code of ethics" and few problems will arise.

I have been asked to leave before, no big deal, be polite and courteous, talk about your hobby a few minutes and then excuse yourself.

 

[Sandman]

good link, but way too much reading this early in the morning.

I am brewing my coffee now, but generally many use the excuse, "What they don't know can't hurt us attitude."

Laws and rules must be changed by us getting involved and active.

 

[spisswgt]

I dont care what the archaeologists say, if I find something in a public place thats not state or federally owned, and its over a hundred years old then its mine... they can piss off. They're just mad cuz we find stuff and they couldn't be the one to find it.

 

[relichunters]

Here I was thinking I could metal detect in public parks and other places... then I read this crap about "if you dig anything over 100 years old you can be thrown in jail" stuff.... someone check out this website and please let me know if its bull or not. From the looks of this site, if you read everything on it, it sounds like an archaeologist can tell us or threaten us any way they like when we find something. If it is true, how do all you guys get away with pulling these awesome finds outta the ground? I know it says ghost towns in the link but it speaks about MD'ing everywhere.

http://www.metal-detecting-ghost-towns-of-the-east.com/metaldetectinglaws.html

Sadly it is true. But the thing is, there is no possible way of knowing how old it is when you find it. You'll need to clean it and ID it. My boss is an ex-lawyer, and we're thinking of writing up a new bill about it.

A guy was cutting down a tree and found a sword lodged in it on HIS OWN PROPERTY, and he turned it into the government or museum and they arrested the man. So to stop things like this. Archies are our #1 enemies who want us taken down. So we need to fight back.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

spisswgt, I recall from other posts of yours that you are fairly new to this. Herein lies the problem with the wonderful internet age: Persons will read a web-link like that, and assume that archies and laws lurk around every corner. No matter HOW isolated those incidents might be, the human mind thinks "oh NO! I wonder if there are laws in my area?" and they scurry away in fear. Then the whole cycle only becomes more self-fulfilling, as people start inquiring of other authorities at different levels "just to be safe". And then you have various levels of city, county, state, fielding inquires about whether or not detecting is allowed. Bureaucrats, who quite frankly probably never even cared or would have noticed, now needing to address the issue. And we all know what the easy answer is. Or maybe there might actually have been something about 100 yr. old items, or disturbing the vegetation, or ARPA, etc... but it was never an issue, and people would go un-bothered (till you asked).

Example: I recall when FMDAC was first getting started back in the 1980s (before the age of the internet). Our club got on their newsletter mailings, and began to receive their periodicals. This was the FIRST anyone in our club had EVER heard of anything about laws, restrictions, and stories of people facing tickets or penalties, etc... I still recall other more timid members reading these accounts thinking "oh no! I wonder if I'm allowed to detect in the park here, or the beaches here, etc..." But what was wierd is, prior to receiving these FMDAC items about isolated incidents in other states, it had never occured to anyone here, that there was any problems. We would just go to any park, school, beach, etc... and detect. Afterall, they're public right? I mean, where ELSE are you supposed to detect? It never even occured on us that you might need to ask, or that there might be a rule, etc... (barring obvious historic landmarks, or leaving a mess, etc....). And no one ever had any problems (why should they?). Now though, reading these FMDAC mailers (which is similar to your website link stories) people started asking more questions. Either it was along the lines of "permission" ie.: "can I have permission to metal detect at the school, or park or whatever", or along the lines of "are there any laws to prohibit metal detecting, or do I need a permit", etc... Oddly, people would sometimes get a "no", at places we'd already been detecting for over 10 yrs! Yup, detected right in front of anyone and everyone, with no prob's. Now someone in our club comes and tells us that such & such park is off-limits And of course, some people just said "nonsense!" and continued to go, and continued to never have a problem. All I can figure is, if you ask enough bureaucrats if you can detect (be sure to show up with a shovel in your hand when you enter their office, lest they not fully understand the implications, eh?), you're bound to eventually find someone to tell you "no". But I bet that same bureaucrat, would probably never have paid any mind if he'd seen a random md'r out there, had he not been asked to render a decision. Now that he's told one person "no", guess what he'll do when he passes another md'r, who he previously would probably never have noticed? He's going to start booting others! (as in "aha! there's one of THEM!")


So this whole thing has only fueled itself, as people read about what probably was, way back when, singular isolated incidents, or very isolated city or county that had/has a permit system. All it takes is only one incident or permit, and when someone else 3000 miles away reads about that, they think "aha, I better check my town/city/school/park, or whatever. But you can see that if he'd had no knowledge of these things, he'd probably never have thought about the matter to begin with, and simply gone out to detect.

So all I can say is, maybe it's better not to read those things. You know, like someone who watches too many cop reality shows, probably walks around with more of a fear of muggings or assumptions of wide-spread crime, etc... Same thing for us all to sit around reading sites like that, only puts us in the fear mode, which only becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy.

And as far as ability to keep an object over 100 yrs. old, HECK, I bet that "technically", there are lost-&-found laws that keep you from keeping anything you find on the ground, even eyeballing it. Ie.: if you find a valuable item (like a ring, or wad of $100 bills, etc...) there is probably municipal code everywhere that would require you to turn it in to the police, and wait 30 days to see if someone claims it, etc.... So those laws could, if you tried hard enough, be made to apply to every single coin you find. I mean, afterall, you found it on CITY property, therefore it belongs to the city, right? So as far as the 100 yr. rule, your math never was too good anyways, right?

 

[jeff of pa]

spisswgt, I recall from other posts of yours that you are fairly new to this. Herein lies the problem with the wonderful internet age: Persons will read a web-link like that, and assume that archies and laws lurk around every corner. No matter HOW isolated those incidents might be, the human mind thinks "oh NO! I wonder if there are laws in my area?" and they scurry away in fear. Then the whole cycle only becomes more self-fulfilling, as people start inquiring of other authorities at different levels "just to be safe". And then you have various levels of city, county, state, fielding inquires about whether or not detecting is allowed. Bureaucrats, who quite frankly probably never even cared or would have noticed, now needing to address the issue. And we all know what the easy answer is. Or maybe there might actually have been something about 100 yr. old items, or disturbing the vegetation, or ARPA, etc... but it was never an issue, and people would go un-bothered (till you asked).

Example: I recall when FMDAC was first getting started back in the 1980s (before the age of the internet). Our club got on their newsletter mailings, and began to receive their periodicals. This was the FIRST anyone in our club had EVER heard of anything about laws, restrictions, and stories of people facing tickets or penalties, etc... I still recall other more timid members reading these accounts thinking "oh no! I wonder if I'm allowed to detect in the park here, or the beaches here, etc..." But what was wierd is, prior to receiving these FMDAC items about isolated incidents in other states, it had never occured to anyone here, that there was any problems. We would just go to any park, school, beach, etc... and detect. Afterall, they're public right? I mean, where ELSE are you supposed to detect? It never even occured on us that you might need to ask, or that there might be a rule, etc... (barring obvious historic landmarks, or leaving a mess, etc....). And no one ever had any problems (why should they?). Now though, reading these FMDAC mailers (which is similar to your website link stories) people started asking more questions. Either it was along the lines of "permission" ie.: "can I have permission to metal detect at the school, or park or whatever", or along the lines of "are there any laws to prohibit metal detecting, or do I need a permit", etc... Oddly, people would sometimes get a "no", at places we'd already been detecting for over 10 yrs! Yup, detected right in front of anyone and everyone, with no prob's. Now someone in our club comes and tells us that such & such park is off-limits And of course, some people just said "nonsense!" and continued to go, and continued to never have a problem. All I can figure is, if you ask enough bureaucrats if you can detect (be sure to show up with a shovel in your hand when you enter their office, lest they not fully understand the implications, eh?), you're bound to eventually find someone to tell you "no". But I bet that same bureaucrat, would probably never have paid any mind if he'd seen a random md'r out there, had he not been asked to render a decision. Now that he's told one person "no", guess what he'll do when he passes another md'r, who he previously would probably never have noticed? He's going to start booting others! (as in "aha! there's one of THEM!")


So this whole thing has only fueled itself, as people read about what probably was, way back when, singular isolated incidents, or very isolated city or county that had/has a permit system. All it takes is only one incident or permit, and when someone else 3000 miles away reads about that, they think "aha, I better check my town/city/school/park, or whatever. But you can see that if he'd had no knowledge of these things, he'd probably never have thought about the matter to begin with, and simply gone out to detect.

So all I can say is, maybe it's better not to read those things. You know, like someone who watches too many cop reality shows, probably walks around with more of a fear of muggings or assumptions of wide-spread crime, etc... Same thing for us all to sit around reading sites like that, only puts us in the fear mode, which only becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy.

And as far as ability to keep an object over 100 yrs. old, HECK, I bet that "technically", there are lost-&-found laws that keep you from keeping anything you find on the ground, even eyeballing it. Ie.: if you find a valuable item (like a ring, or wad of $100 bills, etc...) there is probably municipal code everywhere that would require you to turn it in to the police, and wait 30 days to see if someone claims it, etc.... So those laws could, if you tried hard enough, be made to apply to every single coin you find. I mean, afterall, you found it on CITY property, therefore it belongs to the city, right? So as far as the 100 yr. rule, your math never was too good anyways, right?

EGG-ZACKLY !

if you ask an Cop if it's illegal to spit on the sidwalk
and then Spit. If he wants, he can find a law to arrest you.

 

[Sandman]

We should make this the golden rule,

What they don't know can't hurt us

 

[GrayCloud]

I'll put my detector in the Sandman's boat. He has a way of hitting the nail dead on the head.

 

[radarwill]

[/quote]

A guy was cutting down a tree and found a sword lodged in it on HIS OWN PROPERTY, and he turned it into the government or museum and they arrested the man. So to stop things like this. Archies are our #1 enemies who want us taken down. So we need to fight back.
[/quote]

Unless he entered the "government or museum" swing his sword, I just do not believe this ever happened or has been drastically altered. Urban-legends do our hobby no good either.

 

[Hellcat]

Hehe, dunno if anyone else has done their research but: -

http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/services/233/srv233law.html

So far as I can tell, it concerns New York only.

1.States that anything found by custodians ofthe museum have to be handed over and evaluated.

2. Anything found by custodians will become property of the state.

3. This one has something relating to a different code, not sure what ; -

The state of New York, through its legislative authority accepts the provisions of section one hundred twenty of the federal-aid highway act of nineteen hundred fifty-six (70 Stat. 374) relating to the salvage of archaeological and paleontological objects, including ruins, sites, Indian burial grounds, buildings, artifacts, fossils or other objects of antiquity having national significance from an historical or scientific standpoint, and empowers and directs the commissioner of education to make agreements with appropriate state departments or agencies and such agency or agencies as the federal government may designate to carry out the purposes of such provision of law.

4. no person shall appropriate, excavate, injure or destroy any object of archaeological and paleontological interest, situated on or under lands owned by the state of New York, without the written permission of the commissioner of education.

5. Permits will be granted by the powers that be.

At least that's my interpretation of it but I'm in a whole other country so bugger me

 

[Newfiehunter]

Archaelogists are an arrogant bunch to say the least. There was a program on the history channel recently where they called metal detectorist "LOOTERS". What are they? They disturb the remains the ancient egyptians and those killed on battlefields etc. What hypocrites!! Many important recoveries have been made by mdist, take for example, Eric Lawes who discovered the Hoxne Hoard in England which was one of the most important Roman discoveries in England. He was honest enough to report it and they take all the credit. Just my two cents

 

[Newt]

Job security.

 

[surfin]

I called the worthington police dept in columbus ohio and they could care less about metal detectors it was the city park office that freaked!

 

[spisswgt]

Well, i figured it was better to ask you guys than to just assume and then get threatened with arrest or some ridiculous fine or charge. Yea, I am new at this but it seems like if people catch you they can find anything to throw a fit about so maybe I should just detect super early in the mornings and not have to deal with the @$$wipes that cant mind their own business. Archaeologists sound alot like cops... just a bunch of arrogant prix on a powertrip.

 

[Lasivian]

I don't know about other states but Washington classifies it's state parks and some can be hunted openly, parts of others can be, and some can't be detected at all. This is based on which have not been searched by archeologists, etc. I'm not "thrilled" about it, but it's better than saying "you can't hunt any of them at all, period".

I've never had any troubles at city parks in WA or AZ.

 

[flyinguy]

uh,gee occifer, i thought it was 99 years old. hey that guy just sold that kid a kilo of coke!

 

[jeff of pa]

Well, i figured it was better to ask you guys than to just assume and then get threatened with arrest or some ridiculous fine or charge. Yea, I am new at this but it seems like if people catch you they can find anything to throw a fit about so maybe I should just detect super early in the mornings and not have to deal with the @$$wipes that cant mind their own business. Archaeologists sound alot like cops... just a bunch of arrogant prix on a powertrip.

The Best thing to do is look for any signs.

If there are signs that say No Metal detecting, it's pretty
much cut & Dry. no detecting.

If the sign warns about Destruction of Property & turning over soil or disturbing
grass or Weeds, it's 50/50 . because they can use that against you if they want.

I don't Personally know of anyone being arrested around here
for detecting parks. I'v heard of other areas where some have been asked to leave.
but unless you stand your ground the risk of a fine isn't likely.

I have been detecting since the 60's
and hitting parks since I started driving in 1971
as mentioned above, if you don't ask you don't draw attention.
and back then I didn't ask. except in fenced in areas.
and everytime someone approached
it was to chat me up, ask questions and give leads.

as I got older, & Maturity set in along with the FMDAC's
warnings suggesting we are bad people,
and need to be taught manors etc. I started asking more & Started getting no's
but it's still rare to be turned down at any public park.

being my age, and years detecting I have a secret Weapon.
if somone were to approach me at an old park, I would say
"I'v been doing this since the 60's, and have been here in the past
and was told it was ok. Sorry" and then Leave if they don't change their mind.

maybe try to get a lead out of them before I do,
by trying to start a friendly
conversation and mentioning my best finds, my returning things and
my donations to historical societies. try to impress them with my attitude,
sort of like a Kid in a Candy Store attitude about Local History
and the Hobby. But in a Mature way.

As for the 100 year age Rule.
the only people who know about it are the ones told about it,
or asked about it.
and my guess the only ones arrested are those as stubbern as the person
threatening to enforce it.

no I am not giving advice.
just stating my personnal
expierences and beliefs.

 

[relichunters]

Well, i figured it was better to ask you guys than to just assume and then get threatened with arrest or some ridiculous fine or charge. Yea, I am new at this but it seems like if people catch you they can find anything to throw a fit about so maybe I should just detect super early in the mornings and not have to deal with the @$$wipes that cant mind their own business. Archaeologists sound alot like cops... just a bunch of arrogant prix on a powertrip.

Nah it doesn't matter what time of day. I go out in the middle of the day to a park with like 40 people and no one says a word, ill go to a school and detect and the teachers are having a meeting and say hi, and no one cares. Once in awhile rarely you might find someone how cares, but for the most part it won't happen. Cops drove by me watching me detect and dig holes in a city park and they left, didn't bother me. I've detected on historic landmarks before and no one questioned me at all. If your nice to people, they tend to be nice back.

If someone asks what your doing, just stop detecting and tell them a little about your hobby, that your trying to make loose change on your day off and stuff. Some people are highly interested in learning more about MDing and what you've found, be considerate and nice and have a talk with them. Good way to make friends.

 

[deepskyal]

I couldn't say it better than Tom_in_Ca. Too many questions being asked forcing answers we dont want to hear.

Only once in all my years, going back to the early 1980's, have I ever seen a sign that explicitly stated no metal detecting.
It's in Pithole, Pa. It was one of the original oil boom towns in Pennsylvania. You can see the old roadways, now grassy paths, and the indentations of house foundations lining the roads. And of course...the sign with park rules and regs. The only one I ever saw that said "No Metal Detecting" very clearly spelled out. No if's and's or but's about it, no misinterpretations.

BUT....I've used that as my benchmark for detecting. If I don't see a sign explicitly stating "No Metal Detecting", because I know Pennsylvania does indeed know what metal detecting is, then it's fair game to me. Of course..."No Trespassing" keeps me away too, but parks, schools, woods, abandoned houses...whatever...if it's not otherwise posted...I'm going for it.

And if they can state in the rules posted in one park, No Metal detecting, they can surely be as clear about it in every other park, forest, wherever they have rules posted.

I don't like grey areas of the law that can be interpreted however someone wants...but I'll interprete them however I feel benefits me... til told otherwise.
Al