Montezumas Treasuire: An Essay

[markmar]

I must admit that I haven't purchased or read Babcock's book. Therefore, I cannot offer much of an opinion on his treatment of the subject of Aztecs in the Superstition Mountains, other than to say I suspect the cave and treasures described in Rosalee's letter are based more on the author's imagination than anything discovered in reality.
Have you read the book, and does Babcock claim to have found this cave ?

I haven't read the Babcock's book, but this isn't necessary because the Rosalle's letter wouldn't change its composition if copied in a book or in a web site. I don't believe also the Rosalle's letter to be based in his imagination, because he wasn't aware the letter is encrypted and doubded the date of the latter. Using his logic, he changed the date of the latter from 1816 to 1896. So, this shows he tried to find out if the letter is genuine and did some research for where it's clues could be tied.
IMHO he never found the cave, because he didn't has the skills to understand what was the real meaning of the letter.

 

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[somehiker]

I haven't read the Babcock's book, but this isn't necessary because the Rosalle's letter wouldn't change its composition if copied in a book or in a web site. I don't believe also the Rosalle's letter to be based in his imagination, because he wasn't aware the letter is encrypted and doubded the date of the latter. Using his logic, he changed the date of the latter from 1816 to 1896. So, this shows he tried to find out if the letter is genuine and did some research for where it's clues could be tied.
IMHO he never found the cave, because he didn't has the skills to understand what was the real meaning of the letter.

Wouldn't Rosalee have understood how the letter was coded ?
After all, it had been written by her grandfather supposedly, and I would think that with a find so important to history and of such great value monetarily, he would have surely explained all of that to her.....or at least to her own father.

 

[markmar]

Wouldn't Rosalee have understood how the letter was coded ?
After all, it had been written by her grandfather supposedly, and I would think that with a find so important to history and of such great value monetarily, he would have surely explained all of that to her.....or at least to her own father.

I don't know how Rosalee came to be a relative to John Henry Hinkle or to Emley Fleming Hinkle ( John's sister who seems married John's partner/friend ), but I believe Rosalee was lying. It's the common way someone wants to be tied to something important.
Also, the Jesuits involved with maping or surveying a treasure site, used to send or give encrypted letters to their relatives, for a later use ( see the Sacambaya treasure letters ). They never would explain to the relative the letter's real meaning because they wanted to protect their life and the secret of the site, except only if they were " brothers ".
Unfortunately, the Jesuits sent the letter, but at the end of their mission, they were not able to make it back. Only the Cursum Perficio map remained to confirm their presence in the mountains.

 

[somehiker]

I don't know how Rosalee came to be a relative to John Henry Hinkle or to Emley Fleming Hinkle ( John's sister who seems married John's partner/friend ), but I believe Rosalee was lying. It's the common way someone wants to be tied to something important.
Also, the Jesuits involved with maping or surveying a treasure site, used to send or give encrypted letters to their relatives, for a later use ( see the Sacambaya treasure letters ). They never would explain to the relative the letter's real meaning because they wanted to protect their life and the secret of the site, except only if they were " brothers ".
Unfortunately, the Jesuits sent the letter, but at the end of their mission, they were not able to make it back. Only the Cursum Perficio map remained to confirm their presence in the mountains.

Perhaps it's because I don't share your extensive knowledge of.....and faith in these "codes" you speak of, or believe that various treasure maps were drawn or labeled in such a way as to confuse the person receiving and using them, is why I find so many of your theories/explanations somewhat confusing Marius.
You say Rosalee was lying, and yet you also believe her letter is somehow genuine.....although you believe it's actually a coded Jesuit letter and map that was meant for a brother of another kind....and that the Jesuits had found the Aztec treasure and added their own to it.
Am I following you ?

 

[markmar]

Perhaps it's because I don't share your extensive knowledge of.....and faith in these "codes" you speak of, or believe that various treasure maps were drawn or labeled in such a way as to confuse the person receiving and using them, is why I find so many of your theories/explanations somewhat confusing Marius.
You say Rosalee was lying, and yet you also believe her letter is somehow genuine.....although you believe it's actually a coded Jesuit letter and map that was meant for a brother of another kind....and that the Jesuits had found the Aztec treasure and added their own to it.
Am I following you ?

Yes. This cave at the end of the Trail, has only the Aztec and a part of the Jesuit treasure. It's not attached to the seven caves/mines of gold which have gold bars from early Spanish mining and with two of them to have the other two parts of the Jesuit treasure.
The stone Trail map, the Horse stone map and the Cross stone map, are the only maps in the world which show the Aztec treasure cave as one of their depictions.

 

[markmar]

Somehiker

Few months ago, I posted a map at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...-evidence-undeniable-proof-2.html#post6685224 which shows the seven caves/mines of gold ( orange dots ) and their orientation.
Now, I post the same map but I added the Aztec treasure cave ( blue dot ). The orange dots, have all Spanish gold bars cached inside, but the caves 1,2 and 3 ( with dark blue contour ) hold the Jesuit treasure beside other treasures.
The cave 1 is the cave from Holyground story at the " Cursum Perficio stone " thread, the cave 2 is the known " Perrine cave of gold ", and the cave 3 is from Rosalee letter. The cave "a" was found by Roy Diamond from Bob Ward's book, and the cave "b" was found by a group in the '40s and about this cave wrote Estee Conatser and Bob Ward in their books.

 

[somehiker]

Yes. This cave at the end of the Trail, has only the Aztec and a part of the Jesuit treasure. It's not attached to the seven caves/mines of gold which have gold bars from early Spanish mining and with two of them to have the other two parts of the Jesuit treasure.
The stone Trail map, the Horse stone map and the Cross stone map, are the only maps in the world which show the Aztec treasure cave as one of their depictions.

Somehiker

Few months ago, I posted a map at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/a...-evidence-undeniable-proof-2.html#post6685224 which shows the seven caves/mines of gold ( orange dots ) and their orientation.
Now, I post the same map but I added the Aztec treasure cave ( blue dot ). The orange dots, have all Spanish gold bars cached inside, but the caves 1,2 and 3 ( with dark blue contour ) hold the Jesuit treasure beside other treasures.
The cave 1 is the cave from Holyground story at the " Cursum Perficio stone " thread, the cave 2 is the known " Perrine cave of gold ", and the cave 3 is from Rosalee letter. The cave "a" was found by Roy Diamond from Bob Ward's book, and the cave "b" was found by a group in the '40s and about this cave wrote Estee Conatser and Bob Ward in their books.

Like yourself, I have also been compiling maps of all the interesting places and things I have discovered while hiking out there in the mountains Marius. A bit more detailed than yours, and using topos from https://superstitionsar.org/, they show the trails I have followed, vantage points from where I have taken real photos, as well as a key to which photos correspond to numbered points on the ground.

A sample....



This is Item (10)

 

[somehiker]

(9)
...to the left of (10), and just below the body of the serpent...

 

[somehiker]

A closer view of what's within the yellow box at (9)....a strange image, with a large cave opening above.

 

[somehiker]

A closer view of the cave in the yellow box above the strange image....

View attachment 1942528

 

[somehiker]

(8)....one end of another large cave, but walled-up.
Possibly undisturbed in any way.

 

[Ryano]

How intriguing, Marius !


Somehiker, in your post #28 figure 9 highlighted area

Is that a Kokopelli fertility symbol ? Is it documented by archaeology ? I mean the very petroglyph you encountered and photographed at that location ?

 

[somehiker]

How intriguing, Marius !


Somehiker, in your post #28 figure 9 highlighted area

Is that a Kokopelli fertility symbol ? Is it documented by archaeology ? I mean the very petroglyph you encountered and photographed at that location ?

Definitely not a petro of Kokopelli, although related in a way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kachina
Kokopelli is one of the Kachinas, a very interesting topic of it's own....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokopelli
I believe he represents the traders who, CE 500-1450 came from far to the south on an annual basis, bringing luxury goods such as cacao, Macaws and copper bells, etc. to those who lived in the 4 corners region of the US SW, and other points in Az. and NM.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pochteca

No, other than by what I have posted here, and shared with contacts on a couple of archaeological blogs.
No one was aware of it before this.

The image may depict a warrior, with oversized zoomorphic headdress and elaborite costume.

 

[sdcfia]

Has anyone ever seen this figure before, or have any idea what it represents?

 

[KANACKI]

Hola Amigo

It looks like it might of been vandalized as one half of the rock seems broken off?

Could it be a fertility symbol of corn?



Kanacki

 

[somehiker]

Hola Amigo

It looks like it might of been vandalized as one half of the rock seems broken off?

Could it be a fertility symbol of corn?



Kanacki

I would agree....corn.

 

[somehiker]

Not shown on the part of the map I posted, but not very far away.....



....both images are much larger than lifesize and almost all common petroglyphs.

 

[sdcfia]

Hola Amigo

It looks like it might of been vandalized as one half of the rock seems broken off?

Could it be a fertility symbol of corn?



Kanacki

Yeah, the missing right half of the rock is a disappointment for sure.

Corn? I suppose that would be a typical Native association, but I've seen a lot of corn (originally being from Iowa, ha ha) and it doesn't tally for me. Of course, as always, I could be wrong. An accomplished friend whose opinions I value believes it may be a "mark of possession" from the old culture centered around the Puebla/Cholula region of Mexico. I agree, the carving does "look Mexican", but I haven't seen anything similar to it.

I'm also curious about that shark-like thingy at the top of the rock.

 

[somehiker]

Yeah, the missing right half of the rock is a disappointment for sure.

Corn? I suppose that would be a typical Native association, but I've seen a lot of corn (originally being from Iowa, ha ha) and it doesn't tally for me. Of course, as always, I could be wrong. An accomplished friend whose opinions I value believes it may be a "mark of possession" from the old culture centered around the Puebla/Cholula region of Mexico. I agree, the carving does "look Mexican", but I haven't seen anything similar to it.

I'm also curious about that shark-like thingy at the top of the rock.

Maybe this'l help....

...

....and not a shark, but certainly could be the fish that natives sometimes used to fertilize the corn plant.

Up in area [ j] of my "siteseeing map"....also a fish I think and one of several black painted images in that local.

 

[sdcfia]

Maybe this'l help....

...

....and not a shark, but certainly could be the fish that natives sometimes used to fertilize the corn plant.

Up in area [ j] of my "siteseeing map"....also a fish I think and one of several black painted images in that local.

You could be right about the corn, although the style is certainly unique to any of the thousands of petroglyphs I've seen in the Mimbres realm. Artistic corn representations are seen in the agrarian regions, 300 miles north and west, yes, but not here. That, and the fact that this area has a history of past trade with Mexico (shells, feathers, pigments, food items, et al, found in caves and burials) indicates to me that the symbol may be more of an avatar from an outsider than a local cultural statement. This location, Frying Pan Canyon - also known as "Aztec Site", "Mine 7", and others - has more "Mexican" carvings adjacent. I'd like to locate a close duplicate of this petroglyph, if one exists.