My 1st Barber Quarter!!! Is it Counterfeit???

[ModernMiner]

My 1st Barber Quarter! Is it Counterfeit? **UPDATED**

Well Folks, in my ten years of detecting I’ve never dug a Barber Quarter.
Not sure if this crusty example qualifies or not? This is really The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly of coin finds.

I went out today knocking on some doors around town trying to score a place to detect.
After about eight houses with no one home, I finally got permission to detect only the front yard (back yard had a dog) of a 1901 house.
After digging nothing but crappe’ for about an hour, I got a signal under a large pine out in the front corner of the lawn. It wasn’t even a good signal, but by this time I was desperate. The dirt was very dry and the pine roots were everywhere. I kept at it, and kept at it until I finally got the item out of the hole. Unfortunately, it snapped in half due to yours truly prying away at the roots. I didn’t have my pin pointer today, because I had to send it back.

I thought I had dug some sort of aluminum token at first, but it weighed too much to be aluminum. I had no idea what I had so I put it in my pouch. When I got home I cleaned it off with some water and saw a reeded edge and a date of “1895(?)” on it. I saw “Quarter Dollar” on it and some other details but still had no idea? I pulled out my trusty coin book and figured out it was a Barber Quarter! Yahoo!!!

Now for the questions:
1) Why does this coin not look like silver? It can be cracked in half like old pewter or lead. It has more of a white chalky appearance.

2) Why is it larger in diameter than a silver Washington quarter? They should both be 24.3mm.

3) The diameter of the Barber is larger than the Washington, but as you can see, it weighs LESS. Should be 6.25 g.

4) Was this a counterfeit coin, or was it toasted in a fire perhaps? Would a silver coin grow to this size and also crumble?

5) Does it look like 1895? 1893? Or 1899? I think it’s 1895.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I’m not sure if this coin should count as my first ever Barber quarter?

Thanks for looking,
MM

11/17/2013 ***UPDATE***
O.K. Folks, I received the silver test kit in the mail and conducted the test to find out if this crusty looking over-sized Barber quarter was:
1) Previously in a fire causing this kind of damage, or
2) A counterfeit made of some other type of metal.
Drum roll please..........
Actually, I didn't have a drum, but attached is a video of the actual test done, and a photo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4wzfAKuqug&feature=youtu.be

Thank to all of you for your guesses, info, and input on this mystery coin.
I guess I CAN finally cross a real Barber quarter off my list.
-MM-

11/18/2013 ***Another UPDATE***
Well, here's the results of me filing two areas on the Barber. I filed the inside edge and a corner of the back of the coin. I included a filed down Merc dime for a color comparison, since it's tough to tell in the photos.
I guess now we know what can happen to a toasted silver coin. It's kind of like a apple turnover. Crusty on the outside and sweet in the middle.

-MM-

 

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[bilt46]

Thanks for your input and help Bill. Greatly appreciated.
If you took one of those toasted coins that you posted, would you be able to snap it in half easily?
That's how mine is.
Any idea what those toasted coins of yours are?
-MM-

These will not crack or break, I believe they are quarters one I can read 194? and see most of the eagle, the other I cannot tell at all....BillT

 

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[ModernMiner]

These will not crack or break, I believe they are quarters one I can read 194? and see most of the eagle, the other I cannot tell at all....BillT

Thanks Bill. You've been a big help. Mine does look like it may have been in a fire or heated due to the bubbling appearance, but I honestly don't think it's silver, and it is a lot bigger than any quarter.
This one may never be solved.
-MM-

 

[mariposagold]

Wow. Your first barber quarter is about unique as they come. Great find.

HH

 

[curbdiggercarl57]

It is easily a contemporary counterfeit. It looks like it is made of pewter, which will disintegrate like your specimen in acidic soil. I have never seen silver decrepitate like that.

I dug a counterfeit Barber Half at a 1890's site that is similar, but in slightly better condition than this quarter.
Mine appears to still have some form of possible silver wash on the surface.
It was near the bottom of a very deep trash pile, and dug with an 1890's Denver token.
I'd say it was a period piece, and way better than finding an actual Barber Quarter.
Kudos!
Carl

 

[treblehunter]

Very interesting thread, your mystery is so interesting. What would the diameter of a Barber Half be compared to your "Quarter"?
I love the mystery finds that I have found and from help from everyone on the site, has made my finds so much more interesting.

Sorry, I went back and looked, seen "Quarter" plain sight, I was going for a "maybe, half"

 

[detroitdigger]

Cool none the less, it may have been play money for kids, you never know.

 

[pepperj]

It's a very cool find as it's something out of the box and that makes it very interesting for sure. Looks like it's not made of silver but instead of what pewter would look like after being in the ground for a hundred years.

 

[ModernMiner]

Wow. Your first barber quarter is about unique as they come. Great find.

HH

Thanks Mariposagold, I think so too.

 

[ModernMiner]

I dug a counterfeit Barber Half at a 1890's site that is similar, but in slightly better condition than this quarter.
Mine appears to still have some form of possible silver wash on the surface.
It was near the bottom of a very deep trash pile, and dug with an 1890's Denver token.
I'd say it was a period piece, and way better than finding an actual Barber Quarter.
Kudos!
Carl

Carl,
Great info, and that is a very nice recovery you have there. My reeded edge is a stiil there on my coin compared to your half.
Thank you,
MM

 

[ModernMiner]

Very interesting thread, your mystery is so interesting. What would the diameter of a Barber Half be compared to your "Quarter"?
I love the mystery finds that I have found and from help from everyone on the site, has made my finds so much more interesting.

Sorry, I went back and looked, seen "Quarter" plain sight, I was going for a "maybe, half"

Thanks TH. I too have learned so much from folks on this site.
-MM-

 

[ModernMiner]

Cool none the less, it may have been play money for kids, you never know.

Thanks DD. I think the play $ was aluminum and started in the 1950's. At least I've never dug any older than the 50's. Interesting thought though.
-MM-

 

[ModernMiner]

It's a very cool find as it's something out of the box and that makes it very interesting for sure. Looks like it's not made of silver but instead of what pewter would look like after being in the ground for a hundred years.

Thanks Pepperj. Pewter is what I thought too because of the brittleness. When I drop it on a solid surface, I can tell its not a silver sound.
-MM-

 

[Argentium]

At this point I think the acid test is the best course as it removes all doubt as to authentic or otherwise - if it passes a test for silver,
despite all the other oddities it would be authentic.

 

[Steve in PA]

Quite an unusual find. Your genuine Barber quarter will come, but you may never find another like that one!

 

[scott9050]

It could have been scooped up with raked leaves and burned in a modified barrel then put out with water. Modified burn barrel fires get quite hot (1500-1800 degrees).

It could be a fire damaged genuine coin - the cracking has me stumped , heat alone wouldn't account for that - it would need a very sudden
cold quench while it was still very hot (900-1500 degrees f. ?) - if people were pumping cold well water and pitching it on their burning
property I think you can create a plausible scenario that covers this - maybe - I'm a bit bothered by the expansion too - I've heated .900
(coin silver ) and haven't witnessed a noticeable increase in diameter . Curious to hear some more ideas about this one ! two more things
occur to me - you should be able to get this acid tested easily enough - your picture accounts for the weight discrepancy - there's a
massive chunk missing . Let us know how it tests .

 

[Nick A]

At this point I think the acid test is the best course as it removes all doubt as to authentic or otherwise - if it passes a test for silver,
despite all the other oddities it would be authentic.

Not necessarily a 100% test. Remember the price of silver was still less than the value of the coin at that time, so you could actually still make money by making fake coins out of real silver then. When the Sherman Silver Act was repealed in 1893 the price of silver dropped from .83/oz to .62/oz.

 

[ModernMiner]

At this point I think the acid test is the best course as it removes all doubt as to authentic or otherwise - if it passes a test for silver,
despite all the other oddities it would be authentic.

Just order me a silver test kit off of FleaBay. May be a week before I get it, but I need one anyways.
Will keep you posted once I get it.
Thanks again Argentium.
-MM-

 

[ModernMiner]

Quite an unusual find. Your genuine Barber quarter will come, but you may never find another like that one!

Thanks Steve. I agree, this is NOT your usual Barber quarter find. Too bad it didn't survive the wrath of my shovel and the Pine roots better. Oh well.
-Doug-

 

[ModernMiner]

It could have been scooped up with raked leaves and burned in a modified barrel then put out with water. Modified burn barrel fires get quite hot (150-1800 degrees).

Good thought, but as deep as it was and the location I found it at, I don't think that's what I have. It was well over 6" deep under a well established pine root in the front corner of the lawn close to the sidewalk by a main street in the historic district of town.
Thanks,
MM

 

[Nick A]

Here’s why I think it’s legit:

The details on the coin are consistent with an authentic piece, the lettering, reeding and other details are relatively sharp and look appropriate. (only the sharpness of the date bothers me a little, but not much). For me the picture of the coin on the scale showing the appropriately worn reeding on the edge was the clincher. This does not look like a cast coin, which most old fakes are.

The coin appears to have silver content and to be of a consistent alloy. Pewter or other baser metals would have deteriorated much more in the ground.

As far as the change in diameter, I think the coin was “cooked” – the surface tension kept the outer layer intact while the inside was boiled. Imagine a blister and how the skin swells over it, then that surface tension breaks and pops, which looks like way may have happened on the “heads” side of the coin. Or to imagine the heat, think of microwave cooking – the middle gets super hot while the outside stays relatively intact. A Hot Pocket, for example, gets super hot inside, until the dough covering bursts.

I think the tails side was protected from direct heat while being cooked, and that’s why it’s so flat and has retained as much detail as it has. Imagine if it were in an iron skillet and subjected to the heat.

Other melted coins can be more like clumps or blobs – the fire has been so hot that they are completely molten. I don’t think that has happened here. The coin got good and hot, but not quite molten.

The coin is not 100% silver, but an alloy of 90% silver and 10% copper. High heat might cause the alloy to separate, or the copper in the mix to react differently than the silver. This may account for the brittleness. I’m no metallurgist though. This article that talks about the “characteristics of sterling silver” says, “the degree of copper solubility in the solid alloy depends on the heat treatment used, and the overall physical properties of the sterling can be materially affected, not only by heating the silver to different temperatures, but also by employing different cooling rates.”

I do know that detectorists who find silver “cookie coins” in salt water report that the coins are very brittle, so silver coins can become brittle.

That leads into the nature of the fire, there’s all kinds of circumstances that could go into how the coin was cooked, where it was, now it was stored, the cause of the fire, how the fire was extinguished, etc. The coin could have even been heated and cooled multiple times in just one fire. I would be curious about any other items found at the site and maybe do some research to find out what occurred there.

So there’s my two cents for whatever it’s worth.