My First BREASTPLATE!!! How OLD?

[zaxfire69]

Hello everyone on T-Net!! I haven't posted in awhile, because I haven't had much to show lately UNTIL today!!! . Well today was a day I won't forget for along time. Started out digging Flat buttons. Lord I was in heaven. Signals. Haven't heard those sounds in awhile. Well the Highlight of the day was a screamer. 90 on ATPro. Dug my plug and nails were coming out of the hole. I rescanned and still a high screamer. Dug down and found a round dull looking disk. I could see the Wing of the breastplate!!! Boy did I let out a rebel yell! I was excited. The only thing that threw me off was the way the metal looked. It looked like old pewter. Not Brass like most Breastplates. Got it home and cleaned it up and out popped the Eagle. It looked different than most I have seen on the internet. Still trying to find one, but I haven't found one exactly like it yet. Hopefully Quindy or anyone can chime in and help me out. Well after the Breastplate signals got slim and I ended up changing sites and found a General service Eagle button and a couple of cool Heel plates. Man I sure hope you guys can help me narrow this find down. I am still on Cloud nine. I hope you all enjoy my pictures from today. Missed you all on T-net!! But I am back...Zaxfire69

 

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[BuckleBoy]

Thanks Quindy and Coilygirl. I've never dug any Civil war era finds at this site. That is why I was figuring it to be an early plate. Most of the finds I have found here are from the 1840's and back. I've found the Redcoat Button and a script 1st Artillery button here. Also a 1840 seated dime. Tons of early flat buttons.

Well...that style of boxplate started in the late 1820s. So it is not strictly "civil war"--although most excavated specimens are sold as such. Great find!

-Buck

 

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[sdolly]

Very awesome!

 

[zaxfire69]

Well...that style of boxplate started in the late 1820s. So it is not strictly "civil war"--although most excavated specimens are sold as such. Great find!

-Buck

Thanks Buck!

 

[metalev4]

Congrats. Nothing like your first plate!

 

[zaxfire69]

I know.. I keep walking by and looking at it. Still shocked!

 

[jewelerguy]

super cool find!

 

[blugotti1]

those are some very nice finds!!!

 

[hogge]

A Beauty! Congrats..........Hogge

 

[zaxfire69]

Thank you Hogge!

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

gotta like that relic find ! Nice one Z

Most soldiers would toss them when the word got out these made perfect targets for sharpshooters on the battlefield .

 

[zaxfire69]

I am glad they tossed this one! I just wish I could find a picture of this particular plate. Have not found one yet.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

At VOL1266-X/Quindy's request, I've been doing research on Zaxfire's unusual breastplate, using the O'Donnell & Campbell book "American Military Belt Plates." I micro-examined every photo and the info on pages 274-279.

Zaxfire's round eagle breastplate is the 1826-Pattern, which continued to be used through the civil war into the early-1870s. Instead of the familiar thin brass-front-with-"lead-filled"-back version we dig at civil war sites, the earliest issued (not merely Experimental) version of the 1826-Pattern breastplate was made of a "white metal" alloy which the manufacturer called "semi-metal." It had the consistency of soft lead -- so it is not Pewter, which is a hard, brittle metal. The three iron-wire belt-hooks were soldered onto its back, rather than being embedded in the plate's back like the civil war era ones. Let me say again, for absolute clarity, that the 1826-1832 version it did NOT have a brass front.

I cannot tell from examining Zaxfire's photos whether his breastplate has a thin brass front or not. Two places on its broken edge kinda-sorta look like it does. But he doesn't have to rely on photos, he can examine his plate's broken edges in real-life, and tell us whether there's any brass there or not.

That being said... although the photo of his plate's back doesn't seem to show any sign of rusted-away iron wire hooks or loops "embedded" in the plate's back -- but it DOES show iron-rust "blistering" on its front -- like we typically see on dug civil war era ones. The rust-blistering on the front happens because the iron-wire loops are embedded within the plate's "lead-filled" back. That has me leaning toward it being the civil-war version.

Complicating the issue... I've seen several dug eagle breastplates whose "lead-filled" back entirely lost its thin sheetbrass front. (I even done one like that myself, which I still own.) Those could get mistaken for the 1826-1832 version, but they are not that type. Let me explain.

I've described the civil war era eagle breastplate as "lead-filled" -- with quotation marks around the phrase -- because it's not actually lead. The metal is actually a Solder-like alloy. Pure lead doesn't stick to brass very well, so the plate (and buckle) manufacturers used a Solder-like alloy as the filer metal. If the manufacturer didn't get the Solder-like alloy's formula exactly right (such as, not including enough Zinc in the alloy, the plate's brass front could detach from its back.

The following information is crucial:
The molten Solder-like alloy was poured into the back of the thin brass front, thereby forming an exact image of the eagle emblem in the brass front (like a Jello-mold). So, if the brass front is missing, the back can be mistaken for a "Pewter" (or 1826-32 semi-metal) eagle breastplate.

As I said, it SEEMS like Zaxfire found an 1833-through-civil-war eagle breastplate. But I'll wait to hear confirmation from him that there is absolutely no trace of a brass front. I've explained how "embedded" iron-wire hooks/loops can causing rust-blisters on a plate's front, and I'm having trouble figuring out how iron-wire hooks which were merely attached onto a semi-metal plate's back would cause rusting all the way through the plate's thick body to its front.

 

[zaxfire69]

Cannonball guy. I am almost 100% sure that the front of the plate isn't brass. The reason I say that is because the material it is made of is very brittle and on the edges ( Where you can see cracks around the edge) it isn't a brass material. When wet it doesn't resemble brass. That is why I was thinking it was pewter. It is a White-ish to cream color material. NOW on to the rust. When I dug the plate I removed several small nails that were in the same hole. I even covered the hole back up thinking that it was the nails that sounded off. Rescanning I realized that there was something still in the hole. I have a couple pictures that I will put up of when the plate was wet. That way you can look and see it both wet and dry. I am going to double check when I get home from work tomorrow and make sure there isn't any brass. There was nothing in the hole when I removed this object. That was it! Thank you for looking at my plate. We will get this figured out for sure. If it is the semi metal plate is it rare to find one made of this material?

 

[VOL1266-X]

Thanks Cannonball Guy for helping David. You are a great Tnet resource who does not get enough recognition for your expertise. I know you have personally given me a lot of help through the years. Thanks & HH, Q.

 

[liftloop]

you lucky bum
way to go


liftloop

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Zaxfire69 wrote:
> If it is the semi metal plate is it rare to find one made of this material?

Yes, a "semi-metal" (White-Metal) one is a rare find. According to the O&C buckle-book:
3,450 "semi-metal" breastplates were ordered from manufacturer Moritz Furst
7,160 were ordered from supplier Robert Dingee (who had them made by T. Smith of New York).

So, the total of "semi-metal" (White-Metal) round eagle breastplates is 10, 610. Compare that number with the millions of brass-front ones issued between 1832 and the end of the civil war in 1865.

It's unfortunate that the back of your breastplate is so bady corroded. The "semi-metal" ones showed the reverse-image of the eagle emblem on the back of the plate -- like the back of a brass button-front does. That would tell you right away if your plate is a "semi-metal" one or a typical brass-front one... but your plate's back may be too corroded to see if the reverse-image is there.

Speaking of the corrosion on the back... what's bugging me about your plate is that the back is very badly corroded but the front shows only slight corrosion. Seems like if the front and back are two sides of the same metal, the corrosion on each side would be a pretty close match with the other. That's a major reason I lean toward it being a brass-front breastplate.

I think the ultimate solution to the mystery is to bring it to a major civil war relic show, such as the July shows in Gettysburg PA and Richmond VA, where you could let several top-level experts examine it in real-life.

 

[zaxfire69]

Cannonballguy I'm going to get home in the morning and look at it real close. I want to Make sure without a shadow of a doubt what it is. I will take close up pictures with my Canon camera instead of my iPhone . I can't seem to find any pictures of an actual plate to compare it to. I would love to be able to bring it out to VA. If the pictures I take tomorrow are leaning toward this being a Semi-metal plate then it would be worth a trip to have the experts look at it. I'll try to take as accurate photos as I can. The back of the plate is in bad shape, but the eagle on the front is all I need to see! Thank you for everything and stay tuned for more pictures in the morning. David.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Guys, for my money, it's the CW era one missing its brass skin. I think that the lack of detail on the reverse of the plate, and the rust spots bulging through the face seem to speak against it being one of the white metal early eagle plates.


Best Wishes,

Buck

 

[zaxfire69]

Either way I am excited about it as you can tell. I am going to take better pictures in the morning using my Canon camera. I'm more worried about handling it than anything. It is brittle. LOOK do any of you have a picture of a Semi-Metal plate? That would help a lot !!!!! I can't find any online on Google and I don't have the O&C buckle book. That would tell a lot if I had a picture to compare.

 

[zaxfire69]

The last picture to me shows conclusive evidence that the front of the plate is separate from the filler material on the back of the plate. You can see where the front of the plate is separating in the close up picture. NOW on to the next thing. I am very nervous about handling it anymore, because Every time I pick it up pieces fall off of the back of it. It is crumbling. Thanks everyone for helping me with this.