My Most Enigmatic Find from Weekend Hunt with Colonial Jersey Bandits

[Erik in NJ]

Had a great weekend in South Jersey getting together with NJLargeCent and GrantHansen (both of TNet)...we hunted some interesting properties and made a varied array of finds including coins, some great buttons, and interesting relics.

I found this enigmatic relic in a large field across from a church that we gained permission to. The finds in this field were sparse other than the plethora of Coke and Pepsi screw on caps and then I got a deep signal on my SE Pro. It read at 8" inches but I had to dig at least 12" to recover it. It's dimesions are approximately 3.5" long (including hinge), 1.5" tall, and 3" wide.

It appears to be a VERY (1.5 to 2 lb.) heavy hinged lid made of pewter with a beautiful floral motif on top. The first thing that came to mind was that it may have been the cover for a beer stein or a sugar dish, but the weight would seem to be quite oppressive for this application. It has some beautiful detail on it and I am posting it here first to try and get some opinions as to what it may have been part of.

I'll post a group post of my finds from the weekend and perhaps Grant will make a post of all the items we unearthed as a team. Regardless of the finds the company was great and we had a blast. One of the high points of the weekend for me was dining with the guys at an authentic English Fish & Chips House in the area that was fantastic.

Thanks for viewing.

 

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[Erik in NJ]

Hi, I also thought that there might possibly be some connection to the church, but it seems far too heavy to be the top of a canister with the same relative dimensions that would have been swung on a chain. It is possible though that it was part of some stationary item in the church although this was the only older item we unearthed in this field other than a fairly heavy plated fork that NJLargeCent found that was engraved "Wyndham Hotel"--this was found a distance away in the same field.

my 2 ¢ ... too ornate and relatively soft for any sort of outside application especially, involving heat. Items of pewter were more common with folks of means. It does seem to fit the profile of some sort of lid. With the proximity to the church,it may well be connected to them. Many of those ceremonial items are out of proportion compared to "regular" household versions. Just wondering if it was part of a ceremonial mug/chalice?? Don't know the name of the device , but how bout that utensil they put incense in and wave around the casket at a funeral?

 

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[Erik in NJ]

Hi Frank,

That's a very intriguing theory indeed and certainly a very interesting one. It has the heft of a piece that may have been used for such a purpose. I guess we'd have to try and find an example of a cannon that would have had something like this mounted on it in order to bear out your theory--but I like it! The area in which we were hunting is rich with Colonial artifacts that date back to the Rev War and this one was quite deep at 12" - 14" in the ground, in addition there were significant British/enemy troop movements in the area and that is verified. Please let me know if you are able to find any similar examples of such a muzzle cover made of pewter.

Regards, Erik

I have been intrigued by the piece and checking back on this Thread to see if anyone could identify it. I have had this thought from the first time I read the posted Thread and saw the pics of the item, so I am going to go out on a far limb and throw this out there. Since much of New England down to Georgia including New Jersey, saw quite a bit of action during the Revolutionary War. Germans have long had an infinity with the use of Pewter, German/Prussian Soldiers fought on both sides during the war and Germans are sticklers when it comes to keeping their' equipment and weapons clean and pristine. Therefore, I am thinking that the item is a muzzle cover for a small German cannon to keep rain, dirt and debris out of the barrel.


Frank

 

[Erik in NJ]

The only problem with that theory is that it is much older than the days of prohibition, but thanks for your suggestion!

It's a peephole cover from a speakeasy.

 

[finderskeepers]

Hi Frank,

That's a very intriguing theory indeed and certainly a very interesting one. It has the heft of a piece that may have been used for such a purpose. I guess we'd have to try and find an example of a cannon that would have had something like this mounted on it in order to bear out your theory--but I like it! The area in which we were hunting is rich with Colonial artifacts that date back to the Rev War and this one was quite deep at 12" - 14" in the ground, in addition there were significant British/enemy troop movements in the area and that is verified. Please let me know if you are able to find any similar examples of such a muzzle cover made of pewter.

Regards, Erik

Hmmm on the same track...a hinged cover on the muzzle of anything, seems like it could be problematic. But a breech cap on the other hand

 

[Erik in NJ]

Here's a little more detail with measurements. As you can see it's quite robust with very thick walls. I doubt very much that it was used on a household item of any sort.

 

[huntsman53]

Hi Frank,

That's a very intriguing theory indeed and certainly a very interesting one. It has the heft of a piece that may have been used for such a purpose. I guess we'd have to try and find an example of a cannon that would have had something like this mounted on it in order to bear out your theory--but I like it! The area in which we were hunting is rich with Colonial artifacts that date back to the Rev War and this one was quite deep at 12" - 14" in the ground, in addition there were significant British/enemy troop movements in the area and that is verified. Please let me know if you are able to find any similar examples of such a muzzle cover made of pewter.

Regards, Erik

Erik,

Ask and you shall receive! I found a reference showing a muzzle cover for early German cannons from I think the 1600's which is called a Tompion. Although they were pushed on and pulled off, it is very likely that the German cannons evolved to the use of a Tompion with a pivot which was secured by and pivoted from a barrel band!
See the link below and just scroll down to the sketches.

Artillery Through the Ages: A Short Illustrated History of Cannon ... - Albert C. Manucy - Google Books

It is also listed at the following link.

Cannon - Tools & Implements


Frank

 

[Erik in NJ]

Thank you Frank for the links! If you are right and this item is a cover for a Prussian cannon, it would be a significant find! I think we're on the right path as the heft of the item precludes it from many civilian uses...we're just going to need to do a bit more due dilligence to verify your theory. Thanks again for putting us in this direction! It certainly will be an interesting journey. Best, Erik

Erik,

Ask and you shall receive! I found a reference showing a muzzle cover for early German cannons from I think the 1600's which is called a Tompion. Although they were pushed on and pulled off, it is very likely that the German cannons evolved to the use of a Tompion with a pivot which was secured by and pivoted from a barrel band!
See the link below and just scroll down to the sketches.

Artillery Through the Ages: A Short Illustrated History of Cannon ... - Albert C. Manucy - Google Books

It is also listed at the following link.

Cannon - Tools & Implements


Frank

 

[Erik in NJ]

From Tools on pg. 73:

"Gunner's equipment was numerous. There were the tompion (a lid that fitted over the muzzle of the gun to keep wind and weather out of the bore) and the lead cover for the vent."

Is it possible this is a vent cover for a Rev War Prussian cannon?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Vent cover would be a good guess. I was thinking stein too...but you said it was very heavy. It can't be from a copper kettle or similar. Such cooking vessels would've gotten way too hot (copper conducts heat very well!)...and pewter has a very Low melting point. You could melt pewter with a cigarette lighter if you chose.

So, impractical for anything that was around heat.

-Buck

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Buck, I don't know enough about cannons to know what a "vent" looks like or what a "vent cover" would look like. I saw the reference in the eBook that Huntsman posted and thought it was a possible match. I'm hoping someone like CannonballGuy would add some commentary. Does anyone have a pic of a lead cover from a cannon's vent?

Vent cover would be a good guess. I was thinking stein too...but you said it was very heavy. It can't be from a copper kettle or similar. Such cooking vessels would've gotten way too hot (copper conducts heat very well!)...and pewter has a very Low melting point. You could melt pewter with a cigarette lighter if you chose.

So, impractical for anything that was around heat.

-Buck

 

[pepperj]

Looking at the side photo, do you think that the lid could of opened at the two areas shown?

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi - Unfortunately I don't have the item in front of me (I was exhausted when I left NJLargeCent's house Sunday night and it was sitting with some of his finds that we'd cleaned), but I believe those two bands are decorative in nature. If you look to the right of where his finger is gripping the item you will see where I believe the item was hinged--very similar to the cover of an old fashioned beer stein...it's just that this cover weighs about as much as a typical beer stein. I'll ask NJLargeCent to take a closer look and let us know if it appears that the top once opened.

Looking at the side photo, do you think that the lid could of opened at the two areas shown?

 

[huntsman53]

Thank you Frank for the links! If you are right and this item is a cover for a Prussian cannon, it would be a significant find! I think we're on the right path as the heft of the item precludes it from many civilian uses...we're just going to need to do a bit more due dilligence to verify your theory. Thanks again for putting us in this direction! It certainly will be an interesting journey. Best, Erik

Erik,

You are more than welcome as this is an adventure for me as well to solve this mystery! The Tompion is only a theory and just that! I have searched extensively for a hinged Tompion on any cannon of the period and so far, have come up empty. Maybe it is time to explore other possibilities but the internal dimensions of the item that this piece would cover, are fairly limited. I even had thoughts of a covering for a well pipe, if they were ever used back then and also a covering for a cistern access. They sure didn't drive diesel trucks back then, so that theory is out! LOL!!!!


Frank

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for your help with this. I was interested read about the "lead vent cover" in one of the Rev War cannon links you posted--could it have been used for that on a Hessian cannon or gun? Any idea what a vent on a cannon looks like or what it's used for? I'm still determined to try and get an ID on this piece...hopefully some more of the Colonial heavies here will weigh in with their opinion.

Erik,

You are more than welcome as this is an adventure for me as well to solve this mystery! The Tompion is only a theory and just that! I have searched extensively for a hinged Tompion on any cannon of the period and so far, have come up empty. Maybe it is time to explore other possibilities but the internal dimensions of the item that this piece would cover, are fairly limited. I even had thoughts of a covering for a well pipe, if they were ever used back then and also a covering for a cistern access. They sure didn't drive diesel trucks back then, so that theory is out! LOL!!!!


Frank

 

[goldkey]

Oh....Oh....It's a "wafer God" press dropped there by the Knights Templar................. Just Kidding!!!

 

[Erik in NJ]

Oh....Oh....It's a "wafer God" press dropped there by the Knights Templar................. Just Kidding!!!

No problem....I don't even know what that means...

 

[huntsman53]

Hi Frank,

Thanks for your help with this. I was interested read about the "lead vent cover" in one of the Rev War cannon links you posted--could it have been used for that on a Hessian cannon or gun? Any idea what a vent on a cannon looks like or what it's used for? I'm still determined to try and get an ID on this piece...hopefully some more of the Colonial heavies here will weigh in with their opinion.

Erik,

From the research I have done, the Vent on a Cannon is about the size or slightly larger than a .22 bullet and way too small for the cap or whatever it is you found! They were and are used on cannons of the past and current shootable replicas to vent the fire from the cannon when it is fired. This apparently lowered the pressure during firing and insured that the cannon did not explode from over-pressure. Also, a cover for the Vent would be very small.


Frank

 

[Ia.FurTrade]

Doe's the back have any sign of threads? If so, it's about the right size for a fancy radiator cap for a '20's-'30's car.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Doe's the back have any sign of threads? If so, it's about the right size for a fancy radiator cap for a '20's-'30's car.

No, no threads at all and I highly doubt they would try to make one out of pewter based on what BuckleBoy posted. This item is OLD, but I'm starting to have my doubts now that it was military related. I have a Colonial relic expert who will be looking at it. If anyone knows Hume personally, perhaps they can ask him to take a look at the pics--I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[granthansen]

Erik,
I'm confident you'll get an ID on this. However, I think you should make your own stein out of it. You can definitely handle the weight of it. And we'll have to fashion a horned viking hat for you as well.