New discovery!

[Terry Soloman]

Umm, yawn.

Hey Sarge, are you going to try and get into the Bradshaw Mountains this winter? Maybe expand your knowledge of Arizona's REAL gold country instead of it's Legends?

 

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[cactusjumper]

Umm, yawn.

Hey Sarge, are you going to try and get into the Bradshaw Mountains this winter? Maybe expand your knowledge of Arizona's REAL gold country instead of it's Legends?

Terry,

Lot's of Dutch Hunter's have been in the Bradshaws. I would guess that Sarg. has been there as well. I have made a number of trips there myself. While visiting the Bully Bueno Mine, I picked up this piece of the ore:



We have camped there with a number of Dutch Hunter's, including Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin. We visited Battle Flats, an historic place. Lots of interesting places to prospect in those mountains. Many old mines.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Terry Soloman]

Terry,

Lot's of Dutch Hunter's have been in the Bradshaws. I would guess that Sarg. has been there as well. I have made a number of trips there myself. While visiting the Bully Bueno Mine, I picked up this piece of the ore:



We have camped there with a number of Dutch Hunter's, including Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin. We visited Battle Flats, an historic place. Lots of interesting places to prospect in those mountains. Many old mines.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

That is SWEET Joe!

 

[sgtfda]

There is gold in the Superstitions if you know where to look

 

[Carl995]

To each his own, I guess.

Being cautious and skeptical is apparently not favored around these parts.

I owe Matthew R a big apology. Little did I know that his methods of introducing a "new discovery" was not only acceptable, but welcomed with open arms by some. My bad, he was obviously keeping up with tradition. I could have made progress on my theories long ago by just wishing them so and totally ignoring any hard evidence that cast them in an unfavorable light.

Present presenter is but the tip of the iceberg. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes what has been presented to him. As said, he's far from the only one still, to this day, perpetuating assumptions as facts.

Its not so easy, and far less fun, to put the "new discovery" to the test of authenticity of does it fit with known, well established history or is it a stand alone anomaly. I know how easy it is to see, especially a picture, that looks so compelling but falls apart under further investigation. Its heartbreaking. I truly hope Frank's new finds are authentic. If so they would add a much welcomed new chapter and put to rest some others. But they have much to overcome in meeting that threshold. Not impossible, but improbable.

Here's the discrepancies. Color film during the late 40's and all of the 1950's was rarely used outside of professional hands and very expensive. A quick comparison of cost puts a single roll (12 to 24 shots) at current day price of $54. Using it to record an icon such as Herman is totally reasonable. Using it to record happenstance strangers encountered along the trail makes you go hmmmmm? I've discussed and won't bore you further with Garman's early misconceptions of Travis and Robert's family relationship, Travis' military history (none), etc. Garman's rewrites got better but they were wholly off the mark in the mid 70's. The real clincher, for me, is the photo of Travis, who Garman labeled as Robert, in Garman's book. If Garman had a desert photo of Travis, or Robert or Phil in his collection wouldn't you think he would use it in his defining written work on the subject If he had close meaningful interaction with Travis or Robert who were quite different looking wouldn't he know the difference?

For each individual discrepancy an argument can be made to overlook it. Taken as a whole........it overwhelming.

View attachment 1388187

View attachment 1388188

 

[cactusjumper]

To each his own, I guess.

Being cautious and skeptical is apparently not favored around these parts.

I owe Matthew R a big apology. Little did I know that his methods of introducing a "new discovery" was not only acceptable, but welcomed with open arms by some. My bad, he was obviously keeping up with tradition. I could have made progress on my theories long ago by just wishing them so and totally ignoring any hard evidence that cast them in an unfavorable light.

Present presenter is but the tip of the iceberg. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes what has been presented to him. As said, he's far from the only one still, to this day, perpetuating assumptions as facts.

Its not so easy, and far less fun, to put the "new discovery" to the test of authenticity of does it fit with known, well established history or is it a stand alone anomaly. I know how easy it is to see, especially a picture, that looks so compelling but falls apart under further investigation. Its heartbreaking. I truly hope Frank's new finds are authentic. If so they would add a much welcomed new chapter and put to rest some others. But they have much to overcome in meeting that threshold. Not impossible, but improbable.

Here's the discrepancies. Color film during the late 40's and all of the 1950's was rarely used outside of professional hands and very expensive. A quick comparison of cost puts a single roll (12 to 24 shots) at current day price of $54. Using it to record an icon such as Herman is totally reasonable. Using it to record happenstance strangers encountered along the trail makes you go hmmmmm? I've discussed and won't bore you further with Garman's early misconceptions of Travis and Robert's family relationship, Travis' military history (none), etc. Garman's rewrites got better but they were wholly off the mark in the mid 70's. The real clincher, for me, is the photo of Travis, who Garman labeled as Robert, in Garman's book. If Garman had a desert photo of Travis, or Robert or Phil in his collection wouldn't you think he would use it in his defining written work on the subject If he had close meaningful interaction with Travis or Robert who were quite different looking wouldn't he know the difference?

For each individual discrepancy an argument can be made to overlook it. Taken as a whole........it overwhelming.

Lynda,

Kodachrome by Kodak was developed in 1935. Does anyone know what kind of camera Garman had?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old]

Lynda,

Kodachrome by Kodak was developed in 1935. Does anyone know what kind of camera Garman had?

Take care,

Joe

Here ya go. I didn't say it was not available. I said it was a rarity in hobbyist hands and expensive. That's true.

It became more frequent in general usage and less costly after Kodak was sued for monopoly on its development process. Regardless of camera type, Kodachrome film would be the only likely suspect to have vibrant color transparencies (slides) with surviving trueness in hue after these many years. If its that brilliant, you can pretty much assume its Kodachrome film.

I can dig up the actual costs comparison if you are interested. Didn't want to have Terry falling asleep at the wheel unnecessarily. He's been yawning a lot lately. <g>

PHOTOGRAPHIC RESOURCE CENTER at boston university

 

[Old]

Here ya go. Found it again quicker than I thought.

This will give you an idea of costs, frequency of usage as it became more available in costs and acceptance. Also a discussion of the monopoly suit (1955 ish) and the resulting almost half reduction in costs. From 54 dollars in todays money to around @23 dollars per roll. That's why the general public used it only on special occasions (in most cases).

As I indicated, any one of the limiting factors can be individually explained away by as a special circumstance resulting in a coincident. Its the totality of ALL the limiting circumstances that would have had to have taken place that gives me pause. Your mileage may vary.

A Brief History of Kodak Kodachrome Film - TIME

 

[Old]

Thanks Carrol, the blue mark by the chimney pipe is interesting too. I just wasn't going to go there.

 

[sgtfda]

Carrol a new roof for you to analyze as per the owner

 

[sgtfda]

Carrol the family that owns the slides were dutchhunter friends of your dad.

 

[sgtfda]

Taken in 1953

 

[sgtfda]

Garman was a multi millionaire. He lived modestly. Loved taking slide photos and had a expensive projector. The slides were mounted in metal frames for that projector. I don't think he was worried about the cost of film.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Lynda, I don't remember it being that expensive, something like twice yes. I had an Exacta single lens reflex during the war No pictures remain attrition

 

[Old]

Hey Real, that's a conversion projection of early 1950's dollars to current day value. Certainly not insurmountable, just pricey. And something the average family of the time had to plan for. Heck, my color printer cartridge cost today will seem just as extravagant to my great grand children. Times change.

I remember those days <g> I HAD to have a pair of Weaggin penny loafers, only problem was their costs ($25) at the time was half a weeks net salary for my dad. Had to make those shoes last. That's why we put metal taps on them.......not to mention they sounded way cool on the school hallways.

 

[Carl995]

Carrol a new roof for you to analyze as per the owner View attachment 1388415

Thanks sgt!!

 

[somehiker]

Carrol a new roof for you to analyze as per the owner View attachment 1388415

Looks like one of them stone maps up there on the roof, right over Herman's head.
Hid in plain sight.
Maybe he's the one who helped Travis with all the carving, cause he certainly would have known all the legends and places out there well enough to help plot them out on the stones, as Joe believes was the case.
Garman too, so it will be interesting to hear more about the connection between these Dutch Hunters, and the maps they shared with each other. That hide map might have come from Herman, for example.Turned out it was almost identical to one of the Julia Thomas maps in fact. So I wouldn't be surprised if the "Pegleg" map also turned out to be one that some already have in their own files somewhere. If TT allowed Garman to take a photo of it, there's a good chance he gave others the opportunity as well. Seems he wasn't as secretive as some have claimed after all.

By the mid fifties my grandfather was using color slide film for all his photography, and by about '57 my father. Both owned Argus 35mm cameras and slide projectors with long aluminum slide trays. Neither would have spent a lot of money in those days for the equipment and film. Nor were they ever among the first to buy the latest gadgets of any kind, since the cost always came down right after they did......
I also remember that when visiting, the projector and screen would be set up after dinner, so we could all see the latest stuff on "the big screen".

 

[Oso]

Looks like one of them stone maps up there on the roof, right over Herman's head.
Hid in plain sight.
Maybe he's the one who helped Travis with all the carving, cause he certainly would have known all the legends and places out there well enough to help plot them out on the stones, as Joe believes was the case.
Garman too, so it will be interesting to hear more about the connection between these Dutch Hunters, and the maps they shared with each other. That hide map might have come from Herman, for example.Turned out it was almost identical to one of the Julia Thomas maps in fact. So I wouldn't be surprised if the "Pegleg" map also turned out to be one that some already have in their own files somewhere. If TT allowed Garman to take a photo of it, there's a good chance he gave others the opportunity as well. Seems he wasn't as secretive as some have claimed after all.

By the mid fifties my grandfather was using color slide film for all his photography, and by about '57 my father. Both owned Argus 35mm cameras and slide projectors with long aluminum slide trays. Neither would have spent a lot of money in those days for the equipment and film. Nor were they ever among the first to buy the latest gadgets of any kind, since the cost always came down right after they did......
I also remember that when visiting, the projector and screen would be set up after dinner, so we could all see the latest stuff on "the big screen".

I also have memories of the big screen slide show after dinner at my grandfather’s house… painful memories. How many slides of sunsets into the Pacific do you really need to see when you are 6 or 7 years old? Summer, southern Oregon, no A/C and I really wanted to be outside playing “kick the can” with the neighbor kids… there’s not an app for that.

Same story with my dad and grandfather; both had 35mm cameras and I have hundreds of their slides and dozens of the Argus 60 slide magazines and the slides have held their color very well considering the age.

Not sure if it was dad or grandpa (or both) that took the color pictures at my first birthday in 1947 but this is the first year I can document with certainty that they had color capability. Many of the pictures of that era are B&W but special occasions like Christmas, birthdays, new cars and sunsets are color slides up until about 1953 or so when they switched over to almost all color.

I don’t remember what brand of cameras they had but I distinctly remember the handheld flash attachment with “blue dot for sure shot” flash bulbs that sometimes didn’t work. They would lick the bulb bases to make good contact.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Here are some pictures of Herman that I though you might like to view. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Sorry about the upside down pictures. I am just learing how to post pictures on this site. I will try again. The person sitting by Herman is Bessie Loveless, September 6, 1936. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis