new show on the dutchman

[sdcfia]

<cut>
If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.

I remember hearing about several sacks of exceedingly rich gold ore brought into Silverton, CO by some guy who was known to be prospecting above timberline on the north face of the Needle Mountains. An old timer in Ouray had a framed a photo of the original assay and told me the story. The prospector worked this outcropping for three summers but then died, if I remember right. A bunch of locals went looking for the place but quickly got discouraged - you'd understand if you've ever seen those mountains. With access pretty much only a couple months a year, even if you found the place, it'd be a bear to exploit. There's lots of stories like this in the San Juans. You're right, the LDM's location next to a big city with lots of recreationists has probably had a lot to do with the story's life. The Superstitions are easily accessed, but it's awfully hot in AZ most of the year.

 

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[gollum]

SDCFIA,

The ONLY backtracking I did was to interject one word "tested", and I had done that several pages before. Not too difficult to see. You jumped out with your usual lack of tact, and all I did was to restate what I had already said. You are the one that made a bunch of accusations that I had stated or inferred something, and I just pointed out that I hadn't, and showed what I actually said and didn't say. But enough about that. Maybe now you understand my point.

Matt,

In the Supers, there are four (at least) main treasure stories:

1. Lost Dutchman Mine................Supported by a bit of documentation and a ton of anecdotal evidence. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that there is a much better than average chance of their being an LDM.

2. Peralta/Gonzalez Lost Mines......Supported by no 100% verifiable documentation, but more circumstantial evidence than the LDM (although the LDM is probably one of the Peralta Mines).

3. Jesuit Treasure........................No documentation exists for this treasure. However, there is a ton of circumstantial and anecdotal evidence for it. I also lump the caves of gold bars to this category.

4. Apache Cave of Gold................The Apache believed that all gold belonged to Yusen (their God). There is supposedly a cave somewhere in the Supers that contains a huge amount of gold, accessible for only a few hours a day, and then only if you know the secrets.

Now, if I had to boil that fat down to gravy, I would guess that of those four, there are likely two treasures:

1. Peralta/Gonzalez Mines
2. Jesuit Treasure

I believe the Peralta and Gonzalez Families found several sources of great mineral wealth in the Superstitions. I believe that they had several mines there. I think that the LDM is one of those mines. I also think that when the Jesuit Order knew their gig was about to be up in Spain and her Colonies around the world, they made a concerted effort to ship what wealth they could back to Rome, and hide what they couldn't ship. The best place to hide something is where there isn't anybody that will be looking for it. In 1765, The Salt River was as far North as they had spent any time exploring. The Superstition Mountains, as rugged as they are, would have made the perfect hiding place. All it took was a large mule train and some converted Indians that knew the mountains. I think that the Stone Maps are related to the Jesuits and not the Peraltas. I am still on the fence about the Stone Crosses and the Latin Heart, but if authentic, they are related to the Stone Maps. There are basically three types of treasure hunters that roam the Supers:

1. Dutch Hunters
2. Jesuit Treasure Hunters
3. Prospectors

A lot of people call Ed Piper an old Dutch Hunter. Like his newspaper friend Robert Crandall said, "I have been treasure hunting in the Superstitions for many years, but I have never once looked for the Lost Dutchman." If I had to give a reason for the popularity of the LDM, it would be because there is such a large convergence of treasure stories there. People that have been researching the area know that people have gotten quite wealthy from time to time there. I don't know. That's a best guess.

Mike

 

[wrmickel1]

Good point- it did stand on its own, regionally.

But nationally- and even internationally- could these stories have done so, without the Stone Maps?

I would believe No! With the invention of the internet and ease of travel and the armchair treasure hunter. You can plan a family vacation around the Whole thing.

Wrmickel1

 

[djui5]

Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does?

Yes. Phoenix, like posted above, was nothing like it is today when Waltz died. The story blew up when Julia and Rhiney went looking for the mine. There was local news paper articles about a "queer" search for a lost mine in the middle of summer. The search for the mine made national news before the turn of the century thanks to P.C. Bicknell. This, combined with the fact that Waltz was from Germany contributes to the success of the stories longevity. The LDM has periods of lowering interest and getting boosts of interest through the decades. The Adolph Ruth story helped a lot. It was a passionate story, one many people nationwide connected with. Lost treasure, maps with x's on them, someone dying under questionable circumstances. It's a great story. Then the stone maps came about. After that it's been books, tv shows, and the Don's who have kept the legend alive. Today Internet forums assist as well.

The mountain range is a wilderness today, so you have to hike to get anywhere back there, or ride horses. Some places over 10 miles one way. The summer heat keeps most people out of the mountains for a good 6 months or more every year. Not quite as remote as some places, but remote in a sense.

I remember hearing about several sacks of exceedingly rich gold ore brought into Silverton, CO by some guy who was known to be prospecting above timberline on the north face of the Needle Mountains.

That is some nasty nasty country. I was born in Durango and one day will climb the Rockies looking for mines/gold. Those are "real" mountains, and make the superstitions look like hills.

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Not sure I knew you were from Durango, course I may have just forgotten.

We had a home at Vallecito Lake for a number of years.

Good country.

Take care,

Joe

 

[UncleMatt]

I remember hearing about several sacks of exceedingly rich gold ore brought into Silverton, CO by some guy who was known to be prospecting above timberline on the north face of the Needle Mountains. An old timer in Ouray had a framed a photo of the original assay and told me the story. The prospector worked this outcropping for three summers but then died, if I remember right. A bunch of locals went looking for the place but quickly got discouraged - you'd understand if you've ever seen those mountains. With access pretty much only a couple months a year, even if you found the place, it'd be a bear to exploit. There's lots of stories like this in the San Juans. You're right, the LDM's location next to a big city with lots of recreationists has probably had a lot to do with the story's life. The Superstitions are easily accessed, but it's awfully hot in AZ most of the year.

Yes, I am very familiar with this treasure legend, it is the legend of the lost Carson Mine. The general search area is between Durango, Co, and Silverton, CO. And the gold this guy brought into Silverton to sell is well documented. And many attempts were made to follow him to his mine, and he outwitted those people every time. The search area is above 11,000 feet, and the nearest main road is US-550, and the Silverton Train has a stopping point near the Needle Mountains near it as well. Among locals that stop is know as the "Gaspers Stop", because lowlanders constantly get off there thinking they can just hike up into the mountains at high elevation no sweat. And when the train picks them up, assuming they ever make it back without keeling over, they are always waiting for the train with hands on knees, gasping for air.

So why wouldn't this well documented treasure tale still be getting attention, and have as many people searching for it as the LDM? The answer is easy: not near a major city, not easily accessed, access only available for about 3 months out of the year, and at very high elevation.

 

[UncleMatt]

Randy,

Not sure I knew you were from Durango, course I may have just forgotten.

We had a home at Vallecito Lake for a number of years.

Good country.

Take care,

Joe

That is a beautiful lake and area, Joe, I have been fishing there and in the Vallecito creek my whole life. And there are several treasure tales around there, with the most famous being the lost source of Weasleskins Gold. I have lots of info on it if anyone wants to pm me for it, and have posted photos of my trips up that creek in other threads on T-net.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

What prevents this analysis from happening? Lack of funding? Or lack of access to the samples? And even if some select subset of samples were shown to likely be from the same geologic setting (or similar settings), so what? Had to come from from somewhere. And it would never mean that the rest of his ore came from that same location.

Okay. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you just want to understand and not just pick a fight.

Like I said, Thomas Glover went into pretty good detail in his book on the LDM. ANY mineral/metal can be dissolved into solution. Just a question of which acid to use (for instance gold can be dissolved into Cyanide). Here is a link where you can read about Trace Metal Analysis with Gas Chromatography:

GC TRACE METAL

Not much in there about gaseous phase metals. They do look at liquid solvents and LC. I am still leaning toward there not being much if any GC on metals in mineral samples.

To your final question; I have to again refer to Thomas Glovers LDM Book. I don't have it with me right now, but the testing method they used was actually EDS (Energy Dispersive XRay Spectroscopy). An SEM or TEM (Transmission Electron Microscope) is used in that method of testing, but it is only a part. Lets say the Match Safe is from an Epithermal Quartz Deposit. One rumor is that Waltz highgraded his ore when he was working at the Vulture Mine. We have Joseph Porterie that said this ore is unlike anything ever found at the Vulture, and also that there is zero documented evidence that Waltz ever worked there. Lets say that you require more than Porterie's Word that the Match Safe Ore could not have come from the Vulture. Go to the old Vulture Mine (or the Bluebird) and get a sample of Vulture Pay Streak Ore. That ore is tested and shows it is Mesothermal in nature. Because of that, we can EXCLUDE with 100% certainty the Vulture Mine as being the source of the Match Safe Ore. The testing that is currently possible can exclude or include various sources of ore as possible matches.

Now, some things we have to arrive at answers by various methods: Where did the Match Safe come from? Not just Dick Holmes, but a few people got some of the ore from Waltz' Candlebox. Several people had jewelry made from that ore. Cuff Links, Two Rings, Tie Tack, Lady's Bracelet (which may have been altered to be a watch chain), are some of the known ore sample jewelry. If we could get all that jewelry together and do EDS Testing on it, we can tell if it was from the same geologic event.

Or not.

We can put to rest the theory that Waltz Candlebox Ore was an accumulation of many years of prospecting and mining if all the ore was from the same geologic event.

Or not, since we are adhering to the scientific method and not predicting the results.

By geologic event, I mean that there are three Volcanic Caldera's in the Supers. Two of them overlap, and one is by itself in the Southeastern end of the mountains. Each Caldera has its own fingerprint. In each caldera, the minerals formed differently from the others. Between the three calderas, they covered the Supers in a 40-70 foot layer of volcanic tuff. Here is a caldera map that someone else posted (I apologize for not remembering whom it was):

View attachment 1127718

If all the jewelry matched the EDS Samples of ONE Caldera, we can ASSUME (although I hate to do that) that all the ore samples are from the same mine (source).

If.

Using the science we have today, we can eliminate a BUNCH of the theories that have been circulating for many years................... and the more we can eliminate, the closer we get to the actual source.

Nice idea, but it hasn't been done yet, right? So it supports nothing so far.

I can't put it any plainer than that.

Mike

My understanding is that volcanoes do not spew gold in any inordinate concentration. Never did, never will. (possible exception of ancient greenstone) The heat from nearby magma helps considerably with concentration of gold, forming deposits.

The gold sourced from low concentration rocks being metamorphosed accumulates in faults/fractures/fissures in rock masses by vapor/water (laden with minerals) streaming up from hotter regions over extended periods of geologic time and facilitated by tectonics. It takes a lot of time and water to accumulate much gold. Even if it were happening today none of us will live long enough to ever mine it. Given the right conditions the gold can be in the form of various minerals as well. Imagine the time it takes to accomplish that. Regardless of the past geologic events that formed the host rocks. Gold even occurs in metamorphosed sedimentary rocks by this process. The only relationship necessary is that the host rock exists first so that the gold can be deposited in it. It doesn't cause gold. Tectonic events occur allowing the migration of mineral laden water/vapors to deposit the gold. Various minerals can form, to some extent this is influenced by the host rock formation because it gets transformed/incorporated.

Those calderas are relatively young. 10-25 MY. Most of the mineralization in the known mines is in much older rock. Look at a geologic map and the mine locations. Does anyone actually claim to have mined gold from the younger rock?

Age date the minerals in the samples then you can at least look in the right geology for where they came from.

Is there any analysis to date that tells us something that matters?

 

[UncleMatt]

When I see the guys on this show with their mostly empty day packs, and huffing and puffing away in the Superstitions, I kinda smile. I am used to hiking around in the high Rockies between 10,000 and 12,000 feet looking like this:

That pack is loaded down with food, md coils, metal detector, waders, picks, pry bar, crevice tools, water filter, emergency tent, mini-shovel, gold pans, magnets, rain gear, and all kinds of other sundries. Around 100 pounds.

 

[Hal Croves]

When I see the guys on this show with their mostly empty day packs, and huffing and puffing away in the Superstitions, I kinda smile. I am used to hiking around in the high Rockies between 10,000 and 12,000 feet looking like this:

That pack is loaded down with food, md coils, metal detector, waders, picks, pry bar, crevice tools, water filter, emergency tent, mini-shovel, gold pans, magnets, rain gear, and all kinds of other sundries. Around 100 pounds.

100 pounds? My weakest Sherpa, who by the way wears a prosthetic leg, is expected to carry twice that amount in tea alone. Here is my picture in case we meet on the trail.
-------
If Joe is Heidi, I want to be Eleanor.

 

[gollum]

CN,

When you say "or not", you are absolutely correct. I don't believe you have Glover's Book, but one glaring omission I noticed was one or two of the test results. Things I know were tested, that aren't disclosed. The only reason for this would be so that if matching ore is found, it would not be readily noticeable to anyone.

Not necessarily. When heated water is pushed up through the older rocks, it breaks them apart forming intrusive veins in the rock. As the heated (mineral filled) water cools down, the minerals bind together and since different minerals cool at different rates, they form pockets in different places. So, a volcanic upthrust 25 million years ago could force super heated water up through 100 million year old rock. That's why they are called geologic events. Not only did those volcanoes change the landscape of the Supers, it covered them in 40-70 feet of tuff which prevented most traditional prospecting methods from finding what lay underneath.

Matt,

After I thought about it a while, I kind of realized some of the things that made the LDM such a big story:

Adolph Ruth was just one, but think how many people died under mysterious circumstances searching for the LDM. How many strange decapitations? Things like that don't just get forgotten. Especially the sheer number of people that have died in the Supers.

Here is an incomplete list of many of the deaths associated with the Supers:

1847-ish A massacre of a group of people occurred in what is today known as "Massacre Grounds" - the victims were either Mexicans or Pima Indians, caught by Apache warriors.

1870s, exact date unknown - Jacob Weiser, partner of the Dutchman Jacob Waltz, died of wounds received by attacking Apaches after escaping the mountains to a nearby ranch.


1880 - Two soldiers who had shown rich gold ore in Florence went into the Superstitions and disappeared; later their remains were found, with a bullet hole in their skulls. (This may be an incident which occurred in the Four Peaks region in truth)


1881 – A prospector by the name of Joe Dearing, who was working as a part-time bartender in Pinal, heard the stories of the two dead soldiers and began to look for the lost mine. He soon returned to Pinal, saying that he had found an old mine, describing it as “the most God-awful rough place you can imagine… a ghostly place.” Dearing continued to work as a bartender until he could save enough money for the excavation. To make even more money, he then went to work at the Silver King Mine. Just a week later he was killed in a cave-in without ever disclosing the location to anyone.


1884 - Pedro Ortega was found shot dead some thirty feet from the home of Jacob Waltz, dead of shotgun wounds. Waltz told the sheriff that Ortega's partner shot him after "borrowing" Waltz's shotgun, but many believed that Waltz himself had killed Ortega.


1891 - a legend was born the night that Jacob Waltz, the "Dutchman" himself, died.


1892 - the last known death caused by an Apache attack in the Superstitions, Charles Dobie. Any relation to Frank Dobie?


1896 - the first reported beheading in the Superstitions, the victim being Elisha M Reavis (brother to the famous forger James Reavis) who lived the life of a hermit on Iron Mountain and sold garden produce to locals; some referred to Reavis as the "Madman of the mountains".


1896 – Later that year, two easterners went looking for the lost mine. They were never seen again


1910 - The skeletal remains of a woman were found high in a Superstition Mountain cave; gold nuggets were found next to the remains, but no remnant of any kind of clothing!


1927 – A New Jersey man and his sons were hiking the mountain when rocks began to roll down on them from the cliffs above, as if someone had pushed the boulders. One of the boys’ legs was crushed. Just a year later, two dear hunters were driven off the mountain, when again rolling boulders appeared to have been pushed by someone or “something” down the mountain towards them.




1931 - Dr. Adolph Ruth was found dead, his skull detached from the body with a 44 caliber hole through it; Ruth had told two prospectors he had possession of a map to the lost gold mine, these men packed Ruth into the mountains and later took his car. The authorities ruled the death "natural causes"!!! Well I guess you would naturally DIE if you are shot through the head with a 44!!!


1934 - The Superstition Mountains claimed the life of Adam Stewart


1936 - Roma O'Hal was hiking in the Superstition mountains, and died from a fall.


1937 – An old prospector by the name of Guy “Hematite” Frank was lucky enough to return from the mountain with a number of rich gold samples. In November, he was found shot in the stomach on the side of a trail in or near La Barge Canyon. Next to his decomposing body was a small sack of gold ore.


In 1945 – A book about the Lost Dutchman Mine was written by Barry Storm, who claimed to have narrowly escaped from a mysterious sniper. Storm speculated that Adolph Ruth might have been a victim of the same sniper.


1947 – A prospector name James A. Cravey made a much-publicized trip into the Superstition canyons by helicopter, searching for the Lost Dutchman Mine. The pilot set him down in La Barge Canyon, close to Weaver’s Needle. When Cravey failed to hike out as planned, a search was started and although his camp was found, Cravey was not.


The following February, his headless skeleton was found in a canyon, a good distance from his camp. It was tied in a blanket and his skull was found about thirty feet away. The coroner’s jury ruled that there was “no evidence of foul play.”


1948 - Treasure hunter James Cravey, age 62, was found dead in the Superstitions. His body was discovered first, and six months later his skull.


1949 - James Kidd vanished in the Superstitions, never seen again.




1951 - The body of Dr. John Burns of Oregon was found with a bullet hole through him. Even though there were no powder burns and a ballistics expert testified the shot had been from some distance, the coroner's jury ruled the death "accidental" or suicide!


1952 - Joseph Kelly, a native of Ohio, went into the Superstition mountains and vanished. Two California youths, Ross Bley and Charles Harshbarger, also disappeared in the Superstitions that year.


1953 – Two California boys, who were hiking on Superstition Mountain, also vanished. Unfortunately, for these two, nothing was every found of them.


1955 - Charles Massey, hunting in the Superstitions with a 22 rimfire, was found dead, having been shot between the eyes with a heavy caliber bullet. The coroner ruled the death accidental, a result of a ricochet!!!


1956 - Martin Zywotho, a native of New York, was found dead with a bullet hole in his right temple. Although his gun was found beneath the body, the death was ruled a "suicide"!!!


1958 – A deserted campsite was discovered on the northern edge of the mountain. At the campsite were a bloodstained blanket, a Geiger counter, a gun-cleaning kit, but no gun, cooking utensils, and some letters, from which the names and addresses had been torn from. No trace of the camp’s occupant was ever found


1959 - Benjamin Ferreira killed his friend and partner Stanley Hernandez after they discovered what they thought was gold; the find was actually pyrite, "Fools gold". Ed Piper shot Robert St. Marie in an old-west style shootout after Celeste Marie Jones had hired St. Marie to kill Piper. Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas, who was in the mountains on a hiking trip. Rowlee attacked Thomas and in self-defense, shot him.


1960 - Yet another beheaded skull was discovered in the Superstitions, this one with two bullet holes in it. The skull turned out to be the remains of Franz Harrer, a student from Austria. Also this year, the skeletal remains of William Harvey Jr were found, cause of death unknown.


1960 – Robert St. Marie, who was attempted to drill a hole all the way through Weaver’s Needle, was killed by prospector Edward Piper. Two months later, Piper was found dead. The cause of death was said to have been a “perforated ulcer.”


1960 – Two more men who were hiking in the Superstitions that year became involved in some kind of dispute. Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas, who reported that he had been attacked by Rowlee and shot the other man in self-defense.


1960 – A group of hikers found a headless skeleton near the foot of a cliff on Superstition Mountain. Four days later, an investigation determined it belonged to an Austrian student named Franz Harrier.


1960 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was identified the next month to be that of William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was unknown.


1961 - Some children discovered the skeletal remains of Hilmer Bohen, who had been shot through the head. Walter Mowry's bullet ridden body ws found, the cause of death ruled a "suicide"!!!
1961 – Two months later, another prospector from Denver named Walter J. Mowry was found in Needle Canyon. His bullet-ridden body was removed to the coroner’s, who ruled it a suicide.


1961 – Five days later, another skeleton was found, which was later identified as William Richard Harvey, a painter from San Francisco. The cause of death was undetermined.


1961 – Police began searching for a prospector by the name of Jay Clapp, who had been working on Superstition Mountain on and off for a decade and a half. Clapp had been missing since July. After a thorough search, the hunt was called off. Three years later his headless skeleton was finally discovered.


1963 - Vance Bacon, a hired man working for Celeste Marie Jones (the woman who had a claim on the TOP of Weaver's Needle) fell to his death from the top of Weaver's Needle. According to some sources, there were rifle shots heard and some indications of foul play.


1964 - The skeletal remains of Jay Clapp were found, but his skull was missing and has never been found. Richard and Robert Kremis were found dead at the bottom of a high cliff. Also an elderly couple were found murdered in an automobile this year.
1964 – Brothers, Richard and Robert Kremis, were found dead at the bottom of a high cliff


1970 - Al Morrow, long-term prospector, was killed when a boulder fell on him in the tunnel he was excavating.


1973 - Charles Lewing shot Ladislas Guerrero in self defense, at the Robert 'Crazy Jake' Jacobs camp site.


1976 - Howard Polling was killed by a gunshot while prospecting in the Superstitions.


1977 - Dennis Brown died from a gunshot wound.


1978 - Manuel Valdez was murdered.


1980 - The skeletal remains of Rick Fenning were discovered.


1984 - Walt Gassler, life-long searcher for the Lost Dutchman mine, was found dead in the Superstitions. In his pack was found gold ore identical to that from under the death bed of Jacob Waltz.


2009- Jesse Capen disappeared in November of 2009. His skeleton was found at the end of 2012. Although two sleeping bags were found in his tent, and he had shared a hotel room in AJ, no second person ever came forward.


2010- Curtis Meriworth, 67, Ardean Charles, 62, and Malcolm Meeks, 51, had a map to the LDM given to them by a local Indian (Salt Lake City). They planned to find the LDM they set out during the hottest Summer Months and disappeared. In January of 2011, Rick Gwynne found two of the three. He specifically stated that whatever happened to them happened at night, because the switches on their electric lanterns were on. One skull had two small holes in it, and the other body looked like the ribs had been blown out as if a gunshot from the back.

Press like that keeps people interested.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

200 pounds? I couldn't pull that off, I only weigh 175. Longest hike with 110 pounds was 18 miles up the Vallecito watershed in 9 hours 2 years ago. I'm no sherpa I guess!

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Here is a question for group consideration: If the supposed location of the LDM was not near a major city full of retirees with warm weather most of the year, do you think it would still get the attention it does? For example, I can think of several treasure tales involving lost mines or caches of similar value, but they are not located near major cities, and are not at lower elevations, or even near roads, and have very short seasons each year where searching is even possible. And I never see anyone posting about them at all. They get zero attention. My guess would simply be that is because the search areas involved are very difficult to get to, require people to hike or use pack animals to get themselves into those search areas, and are at much higher elevations than the Superstition Mountains.

If the LDM tales told us it was located in the high Rockies above 11,000 feet in wilderness areas, far away from any roads or major cities, and you could only search for it a couple of months out of each year, would we even be talking about it today? Would it have its own show? I seriously doubt it.

So when you want to go looking for the "other" treasures? I ain't scared!

 

[azdave35]

i'll go along with mike...the reason those mountains have gained so much fame is because of all the death and mayhem that has happened there..a few hundred people have been killed up there

 

[UncleMatt]

Mike, I think so many more people have died looking for the LDM simply because they had access to look for it more easily than other treasure legend sites. And of course that feeds the legend even further. I am sure it is deceiving looking up there from down below, since its so close to civilization, and many people fall into the trap of not going prepared. No argument the Superstition Mountains kill a lot of people. No water up there I imagine.

Where I search in the Rockies lots of people died as well, but no major city nearby to take notice. Most of the people who died up in the Rockies weren't even missed, or noted in mass media. And usually they were killed by animals, or Utes, or avalanche, and nothing ever found.

 

[Hal Croves]

i'll go along with mike...the reason those mountains have gained so much fame is because of all the death and mayhem that has happened there..a few hundred people have been killed up there

Relatively easy access and hope during periods of economic hardship might be a factor.

 

[wrmickel1]

What prevents this analysis from happening? Lack of funding? Or lack of access to the samples? And even if some select subset of samples were shown to likely be from the same geologic setting (or similar settings), so what? Had to come from from somewhere. And it would never mean that the rest of his ore came from that same location.

Not much in there about gaseous phase metals. They do look at liquid solvents and LC. I am still leaning toward there not being much if any GC on metals in mineral samples.Or not. Or not, since we are adhering to the scientific method and not predicting the results.If. Nice idea, but it hasn't been done yet, right? So it supports nothing so far.

My understanding is that volcanoes do not spew gold in any inordinate concentration. Never did, never will. (possible exception of ancient greenstone) The heat from nearby magma helps considerably with concentration of gold, forming deposits.

The gold sourced from low concentration rocks being metamorphosed accumulates in faults/fractures/fissures in rock masses by vapor/water (laden with minerals) streaming up from hotter regions over extended periods of geologic time and facilitated by tectonics. It takes a lot of time and water to accumulate much gold. Even if it were happening today none of us will live long enough to ever mine it. Given the right conditions the gold can be in the form of various minerals as well. Imagine the time it takes to accomplish that. Regardless of the past geologic events that formed the host rocks. Gold even occurs in metamorphosed sedimentary rocks by this process. The only relationship necessary is that the host rock exists first so that the gold can be deposited in it. It doesn't cause gold. Tectonic events occur allowing the migration of mineral laden water/vapors to deposit the gold. Various minerals can form, to some extent this is influenced by the host rock formation because it gets transformed/incorporated.

Those calderas are relatively young. 10-25 MY. Most of the mineralization in the known mines is in much older rock. Look at a geologic map and the mine locations. Does anyone actually claim to have mined gold from the younger rock?

Age date the minerals in the samples then you can at least look in the right geology for where they came from.


Is there any analysis to date that tells us something that matters?

CN,

The Age really don't matter underwater volcano's are steal refining earths minerals today. And 10 to25 million years ago the Superstitions were under the ocean you can see it in the Rocks.

Wrmickel1

 

[gollum]

If you see me while you're in the desert:



Please try not to frighten me, as I have been known to squirt blood from my eyes! And please don't talk about my skin condition, I'm sensitive.

Mike

 

[djui5]

Yes, I am very familiar with this treasure legend, it is the legend of the lost Carson Mine. The general search area is between Durango, Co, and Silverton, CO. And the gold this guy brought into Silverton to sell is well documented.

Thanks, after I find the LDM I'm headed to Durango to find this mine.


Joe, I don't think I ever told you.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

CN,

When you say "or not", you are absolutely correct. I don't believe you have Glover's Book,

correct

but one glaring omission I noticed was one or two of the test results. Things I know were tested, that aren't disclosed. The only reason for this would be so that if matching ore is found, it would not be readily noticeable to anyone.

Not necessarily. When heated water is pushed up through the older rocks,

The rock in which the gold precipitates might easily be younger than the rock (or might be the same rock) being metamorphosed to source the gold <-- that process is where the water comes from in the first place.

it breaks them apart forming intrusive veins in the rock. As the heated (mineral filled) water cools down, the minerals bind together

precipitate out or even are just left behind by evaporating water.

and since different minerals cool at different rates,

I think you mean form at different temperatures, or precipitate out at different temperatures, or have different solubility under different conditions. Pressure, chemical composition (think eutectic points) and co-solvency as well as temperature.

they form pockets in different places.

Where ever the chemistry happens to be right at a given time. Conditions are bound to change over millions of years.

So, a volcanic upthrust 25 million years ago could force super heated water up through 100 million year old rock.

Actually, it is the pressures and temperatures associated with events that cause mineralogy/petrology changes and force the creation of water and the mineral lode it carries out of the rocks, literally squeezing it out. OVER LONG TIME PERIODS.

That's why they are called geologic events.

IF your claim is that the gold is deposited in relatively instantaneous time frames like the explosion that formed the caldera, or even associated with such an event, I'd have to disagree. That instant is the end of the geologic time period that was depositing the gold. The pressure was nearly instantaneously released and all the water which had been formed and was leaking in veins was suddenly expelled along with any minerals contained. Which by the way is a pretty dilute solution to begin with which is why it takes so long to have appreciable quantities of gold accumulate. Keep in mind the gold is sourced from rock of approximately average earth crust composition and then concentrated by the process.

Not only did those volcanoes change the landscape of the Supers, it covered them in 40-70 feet of tuff which prevented most traditional prospecting methods from finding what lay underneath.

Matt,

After I thought about it a while, I kind of realized some of the things that made the LDM such a big story:

Adolph Ruth was just one, but think how many people died under mysterious circumstances searching for the LDM. How many strange decapitations? Things like that don't just get forgotten. Especially the sheer number of people that have died in the Supers.

Here is an incomplete list of many of the deaths associated with the Supers:

Did that one guy get shot twice? Never says he died, right? 1959 , Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas,1960 Lavern Rowlee was shot by Ralph Thomas,

Press like that keeps people interested.

Mike