new show on the dutchman

[cw0909]

finally got the time to watch the past episodes, in The Dutchman's Code episode
calling it ancient Apache territory, ill have to go look again, but i think most of
that area was reservation until early 1900s, and some of it still is
so does anyone think JW would mine on Apache land, or any indian land

found these, not the ones i had looked at b4, if i find that info again ill post it

present day
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Apachean_present.png
Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1868-1934
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...hist_map.svg/300px-Nn_border_hist_map.svg.png
Navajo Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[johnmark29020]

@Bob Collins, yes it passed, sorry i thought you meant the way the land and
resources were taken by gov., this sale was done in secret, and pushed through
the ......

Defense Bill Passes, Giving Sacred Native American Sites To Mining Company [Archive] - Gold-Silver Forums

I was in superior the same time,as resolution had a thrid pary company syrveying everything. They were up north happy camp rd all the way up the Montana moutain loop.
They were runing exposed wires cheacking for cooper,but they admitted the wire would show gold.
Thats when I found out about the land swap. They found grave site,and recored them. So I called resolution and spoke to them. I asked them specifically about the Montana moutain loop,
They said all of that area wasnt part of this bill. It was part of stage 2 of the land swap.imagine losing picket post mounntan,and any other canon you care about. You need to join your voice with the indians. The east side is being traded away a little at a time.
Also the survey crew stayed at the same motel I did. Well its the only motel in town. I taked about why I was in the area,and they would drink beer until I was their best buddy. So they let me in their room. I saw google maps poster size,topo maps marked with high lighter. Every thing I had on my ldm search they had the same thing. Almost as if they downloaded from my pc.
They are after all the minerized area on the east over to globe up to the salt river.
If we don't start making noise,and backing the Indian to stop land swapping.
Someone at resolution is after the dutch and any cached. Why else would a survey team have treasure maps. Everyone needs to start protesting this bill . The us government wont listen to indians, but they may listen to all of az communities.
Other wise mr glover will right a book about stolen dreams.

 

[johnmark29020]

finally got the time to watch the past episodes, in The Dutchman's Code episode
calling it ancient Apache territory, ill have to go look again, but i think most of
that area was reservation until early 1900s, and some of it still is
so does anyone think JW would mine on Apache land, or any indian land

found these, not the ones i had looked at b4, if i find that info again ill post it

present day
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Apachean_present.png
Apache - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1868-1934
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Nn_border_hist_map.svg/300px-Nn_border_hist_map.svg.png
Navajo Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Jacob would. He killed two or three Mexicans for the mine. He mistaken the Mexican for Indians.

My IMHO. Waltzs was out prospecting.
He spotted a area the may contain gold.
Rode over and saw Indians breaking rock.
Or maybe tracking a deer. He shot them.
Then he went to check the gold. That's when he learned about the vein.
Realizing this wouldn't be a simple in and out. He made up the stories about Mexicans. Yes he had the will to dig on Indian land

 

[cw0909]

johnmark is this that mining co.
https://goo.gl/maps/AkuEo

 

[pkdmslf]

Not aware of any Apache reservation in this area. The San Carlos and White Mountain Apache Reservations are the only ones I'm aware of.

Back in JW's days any area outside of a civilized town was "Indian Country".

 

[cw0909]

Not aware of any Apache reservation in this area. The San Carlos and White Mountain Apache Reservations are the only ones I'm aware of.

Back in JW's days any area outside of a civilized town was "Indian Country".

so most that ,were mining ,were mining in "Indian Country"
im going to have to look into, the treaties of that time, see what was going on

 

[gollum]

Originally Posted by Cubfan64 I agree with one caveat.... do at least a small amount of educating yourself about the area if you've never hiked in the desert or a wilderness area before and be prepared for emergencies JUST IN CASE. It's actually just common sense - you would (or at least should) do the same if you're going to visit someplace like New York City for the first time if you've never been there - know where it's safe to go and where you should avoid and be prepared - not really that much different in theory.


I love it out there and can guarantee that if I had lived in that area when I was younger it would have been a place I would have spent a huge portion of my days and nights!

Are you saying that in the USA a citizen should not have the expectation of walking about freely? Seriously?

CN,

First, you should read more than two words of a post (unless you intentionally wanted t start a fight). I think the post is actually stating something that is common sense and should be common knowledge. Sure, you ABSOLUTELY DO have the right to go (just about) anywhere in this country. I bet you would probably avoid Compton or South LA after dark! I can think of several places in the greater Los Angeles Area alone that you would WANT to avoid. A lot of people steer clear of Apache Junction after dark these days. So far (knock on wood) I have never had a problem there (and then again, I am 6'4" 290lbs with a shaved head HAHAHA).

-----------------------

You also don't seem to understand that almost EVERY mine owner in the world has their ore tested for content. Most people these days opt for more than a fire assay. Prices for SEM and GC (Gas Chromatograph) testing has come down with the advent of cheaper technology. There are people that assimilate and correlate that information. Some do it just to do it, some do it as a school project, and some do it for any reason under the sun, but it is done.

Just like Floyd Mann that does the "Lost Treasure USA" Website. He has compiled a database of countless Treasure Magazine Articles:

Lost Treasure Research Page

He took it upon himself to make that list and keep copies of the articles. If you email him, he will copy the articles you need and send them to you. He has never charged me a fee for it. I haven't needed anything recently, but just about any story in any state.

I don't understand why you have a problem believing that databases for mine tests exist?

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

My brother, it is time.
Let UncleMatt Walking Thunder and I welcome you to the Sacred Circle of the Wematanye... View attachment 1127521

Please, let us pass out the Silence Sticks to test our spirits of shutting up

And I'm pretty sure that Walking Thunder reference may be a fart reference....

Fart Walker?

 

[gollum]

You've never had Tayoper's camp chili, have ya? Will keep your saddle warm all day.

Drawers waving like a flag in a high wind!

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

CN,

First, you should read more than two words of a post (unless you intentionally wanted t start a fight). I think the post is actually stating something that is common sense and should be common knowledge. Sure, you ABSOLUTELY DO have the right to go (just about) anywhere in this country. I bet you would probably avoid Compton or South LA after dark! I can think of several places in the greater Los Angeles Area alone that you would WANT to avoid. A lot of people steer clear of Apache Junction after dark these days. So far (knock on wood) I have never had a problem there (and then again, I am 6'4" 290lbs with a shaved head HAHAHA).

-----------------------

You also don't seem to understand that almost EVERY mine owner in the world has their ore tested for content. Most people these days opt for more than a fire assay. Prices for SEM

What sort of parameters were determined by that to compare from mine to mine? Are the results available?

and GC (Gas Chromatograph)

Not really for metals analysis usually. At least not direct measurements of any kind for quant. There is a bunch of chemistry that could be applied. Just not what you said. How about ICP with GF, or XRF, etc.

testing has come down with the advent of cheaper technology. There are people that assimilate and correlate that information. Some do it just to do it, some do it as a school project, and some do it for any reason under the sun, but it is done.

Just like Floyd Mann that does the "Lost Treasure USA" Website. He has compiled a database of countless Treasure Magazine Articles:

Lost Treasure Research Page

He took it upon himself to make that list and keep copies of the articles. If you email him, he will copy the articles you need and send them to you. He has never charged me a fee for it. I haven't needed anything recently, but just about any story in any state.

I don't understand why you have a problem believing that databases for mine tests exist?

Mike

Got a link to one of these databases? I'd love to see it. Thanks!

 

[gollum]

There are many types of GC Detectors. While Flame Ionization Detectors are mostly used for organic or petroleum in water detection, there are several types of CG Detectors that can be used for mineral detection (I.E. Thermal Conductivity, Discharge Ionization, etc). They have been used in minerals detection since the early sixties.

Actually, XRF (X-Ray Flourescence) is preferable, but XRF Guns are still quite high priced (for an individual).

I haven't had the chance to look for my database links, but will post them when I get the chance. In the meantime, like I told SDCFIA, I believe I got the fist link from the Colorado School of Mines. If you really want to find out, please feel free to do a little of your own research. You really don't have to rely on me. Anything I have posted (for the most part) is public knowledge. Nothing secret about mine content databases. Probably even available from minerals.USGS.gov. Not certain, but worth a try if you want.

I don't have the links at my fingertips because interest in a large database of mine data doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. It was peripheral to something I was looking at a couple of years ago.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

There are many types of GC Detectors. While Flame Ionization Detectors are mostly used for organic or petroleum in water detection, there are several types of CG Detectors that can be used for mineral detection (I.E. Thermal Conductivity, Discharge Ionization, etc). They have been used in minerals detection since the early sixties.

If you say so, but 'gas chromatography' regardless of the detector configuration is looking at a sample of gas, even if it was derived from a liquid. I'd be surprised to see it in mineral identifications. (solid rocks as opposed to oil reserves etc) What exactly do they detect, quantify and log using GC methods on hard rock mine minerals?

Actually, XRF (X-Ray Flourescence) is preferable, but XRF Guns are still quite high priced (for an individual).

Ever price a GC or an SEM? Ever try to haul one into the field?

I haven't had the chance to look for my database links, but will post them when I get the chance. In the meantime, like I told SDCFIA, I believe I got the fist link from the Colorado School of Mines. If you really want to find out, please feel free to do a little of your own research. You really don't have to rely on me. Anything I have posted (for the most part) is public knowledge. Nothing secret about mine content databases. Probably even available from MINEDAT.ORG. Not certain, but worth a try if you want.

Mike

About post #921 http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/447362-new-show-dutchman-24.html#post4419629 Where you bring this concept up ... The first commercially available SEM was circa 1965. Do you really claim that samples from older mines were investigated? Why would anyone expect a match to any particular ore that is supposedly older than that? It seems to rule out nothing. Consider that all ore varies from background conditions to the max concentrations somewhere and the composition (elemental and mineral) changes as to what is there and how much of it continuously. Then consider to what extent and when SEM was applied to mines as a matter of course. And why? What is to be learned by ID of source, especially that you already know where the samples came from in building such a database? I cannot fathom the idea that someone would build a database with the intended purpose to ID mine source for samples of unknown origin, nor do I think it technically feasible. I do not believe that any databases which may be populated to whatever extent actually contain sufficient information, and it most certainly wasn't their design intent. Mine endeavors care about what the minerals are and in what quantities. I do not see where SEM (even if some database existed) could rule out any mine.

 

[gollum]

If you say so, but 'gas chromatography' regardless of the detector configuration is looking at a sample of gas, even if it was derived from a liquid. I'd be surprised to see it in mineral identifications. (solid rocks as opposed to oil reserves etc) What exactly do they detect, quantify and log using GC methods on hard rock mine minerals? Ever price a GC or an SEM? Ever try to haul one into the field?

About post #921 http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-dutchman-s-mine/447362-new-show-dutchman-24.html#post4419629 Where you bring this concept up ... The first commercially available SEM was circa 1965. Do you really claim that samples from older mines were investigated? Why would anyone expect a match to any particular ore that is supposedly older than that? It seems to rule out nothing. Consider that all ore varies from background conditions to the max concentrations somewhere and the composition (elemental and mineral) changes as to what is there and how much of it continuously. Then consider to what extent and when SEM was applied to mines as a matter of course. And why? What is to be learned by ID of source, especially that you already know where the samples came from in building such a database? I cannot fathom the idea that someone would build a database with the intended purpose to ID mine source for samples of unknown origin, nor do I think it technically feasible. I do not believe that any databases which may be populated to whatever extent actually contain sufficient information, and it most certainly wasn't their design intent. Mine endeavors care about what the minerals are and in what quantities. I do not see where SEM (even if some database existed) could rule out any mine.

Mostly for GC, the minerals are dissolved in acid fist.

Absolutely. I can still walk into the Mammoth Mine and get a sample of ore from what is left of the Pay Streak to have sampled. Not really a complicated process. If you read Thomas Glover's Book, he went into pretty good detail about that whole subject.

Its too bad that you aren't able to wrap your brain around the concept (unless you are just trying to start fights). Its not necessary to id an exact sample to another. What is important is comparing one geologic event to another. While it might not be possible to say that one piece of ore is a 100% match to a particular mine, it is possible to include or rule out some mines based on details such as Epithermal, Calcium Carbonate, Mesothermal, etc deposits.

I am also a bit confused that you can't understand that many people in this world love to categorize things and keeps lists. Look at the example I provided. Floyd Mann has compiled a database of Treasure Hunting Magazine Articles. He makes no money from it. He did it because he wanted to. Very nice guy. I have gotten his assistance several times over the years, and he has never asked for nor accepted a cent in payment.

Try this list of databases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_databases_and_search_engines

Maybe it will help you to understand that many people do things for every reason under the sun (including starting fights).

I (like Randy) think you are laboring under the misapprehension that I care whether you believe anything I say or not. The people here that know me, know I don't lie. I don't make up things, or start fights for no reason. Again, like Randy said, none of us asks that ANYBODY takes our words as gospel. Take what we say and then research it for yourself. Almost everything I post can be found publicly. You just have to do it. I don't mind giving most people whatever information they need. I also don't mind pointing most people in the right direction to back up what I say. I have spent the time, money, and boot leather so that I know what I am talking about. You are absolutely free to believe anything you want. All people like you do is screw things up for the people that truly wish to learn something. I can think of several VERY knowledgeable people that won't post here due to the high troll ratio. Like everybody else, I will spend a bit of my time giving anybody a chance, but when I am done, I am done. I won't quit posting, I will just ignore trolls once I am absolutely certain that is all they are.

Mike

 

[roadrunner]

There are many types of GC Detectors. While Flame Ionization Detectors are mostly used for organic or petroleum in water detection, there are several types of CG Detectors that can be used for mineral detection (I.E. Thermal Conductivity, Discharge Ionization, etc). They have been used in minerals detection since the early sixties.
I don't have the links at my fingertips because interest in a large database of mine data doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. It was peripheral to something I was looking at a couple of years ago.

Mike

Mineral Resources On-Line Spatial Data





[h=1][/h]

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Well Dorthy, we're not in Kansas anymore ...

Mostly for GC, the minerals are dissolved in acid fist.

I am no expert, but I can't think of any gaseous species of acidified gold, silver, lead, copper .... Can you be more specific about this chemistry? You do realize that gas chromatographs analyze gases, right?

Absolutely. I can still walk into the Mammoth Mine and get a sample of ore from what is left of the Pay Streak to have sampled. Not really a complicated process. If you read Thomas Glover's Book, he went into pretty good detail about that whole subject.

Its too bad that you aren't able to wrap your brain around the concept (unless you are just trying to start fights).

No one is trying to fight you. What it is is, you bring up stuff that seems unreal. So I ask. Then the bawking.

Its not necessary to id an exact sample to another. What is important is comparing one geologic event to another. While it might not be possible to say that one piece of ore is a 100% match to a particular mine, it is possible to include or rule out some mines based on details such as Epithermal, Calcium Carbonate, Mesothermal, etc deposits.

I do not see where anything you have proffered about this shows any sort of exclusivity. Let us talk geologic events then. You go first. Timing, limitations, what is your specific claim here? Not that we put the other issue to rest.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

There are many types of GC Detectors.
<cut>
I haven't had the chance to look for my database links, but will post them when I get the chance. In the meantime, like I told SDCFIA, I believe I got the fist link from the Colorado School of Mines.
<cut>
If you really want to find out, please feel free to do a little of your own research. You really don't have to rely on me. Anything I have posted (for the most part) is public knowledge. Nothing secret about mine content databases. Probably even available from minerals.USGS.gov. Not certain, but worth a try if you want.

I don't have the links at my fingertips because interest in a large database of mine data doesn't hold a lot of interest for me. It was peripheral to something I was looking at a couple of years ago.

Mike

This is getting painful to watch - what are you trying to prove with your totally fallacious database prop? I'll quote Glover himself on the issue, The Lost Dutchman of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream, page 275. "... the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Glover tested the jewelry ore against the Vulture Mine and six other ore samples known or suspected to have come from the Superstition Mountains and Goldfield mines. More: "No ore samples survive from many of the documented historic mines, some of whose locations we may not even know today. Anyone who has studied mining history knows that it is often poorly or incompletely documented. Consider the number of early mines worked for only a brief period, exhausted of ore and then closed over a century ago; the number of mines worked without declaration; the early mines worked which were incompletely documented; and the number of mines for which the documentation has been lost or destroyed. Given this history, it is silly to think that a collection exists anywhere with 'samples of gold ore from every known Arizona mine' ". Page 282.

I believe I pointed out the same information in Post#927. If you can't accept my observations, why not Glovers? In effect, the jewelry ore could have come from anywhere in Arizona. Or CA, NM, or MX too, for that matter. Move on.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This is getting painful to watch - what are you trying to prove with your totally fallacious database prop? I'll quote Glover himself on the issue, The Lost Dutchman of Jacob Waltz, Part 1: The Golden Dream, page 275. "... the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist."

Glover tested the jewelry ore against the Vulture Mine and six other ore samples known or suspected to have come from the Superstition Mountains and Goldfield mines. More: "No ore samples survive from many of the documented historic mines, some of whose locations we may not even know today. Anyone who has studied mining history knows that it is often poorly or incompletely documented. Consider the number of early mines worked for only a brief period, exhausted of ore and then closed over a century ago; the number of mines worked without declaration; the early mines worked which were incompletely documented; and the number of mines for which the documentation has been lost or destroyed. Given this history, it is silly to think that a collection exists anywhere with 'samples of gold ore from every known Arizona mine' ". Page 282.

I believe I pointed out the same information in Post#927. If you can't accept my observations, why not Glovers? In effect, the jewelry ore could have come from anywhere in Arizona. Or CA, NM, or MX too, for that matter. Move on.

If only I had a collection of LDM books instead of logic and a rudimentary understanding of science.

 

[wrmickel1]

If only I had a collection of LDM books instead of logic and a rudimentary understanding of science.

CN

You may not have books, but at least you have your Chippendale posters and your play girls and don't forget your coffee table book of Chlsbrn photo's.

Wrmickel1

 

[Oregon Viking]

CN

You may not have books, but at least you have your Chippendale posters and your play girls and don't forget your coffee table book of Chlsbrn photo's.

Wrmickel1

Ew!

 

[gollum]

I am no expert, but I can't think of any gaseous species of acidified gold, silver, lead, copper .... Can you be more specific about this chemistry? You do realize that gas chromatographs analyze gases, right? No one is trying to fight you. What it is is, you bring up stuff that seems unreal. So I ask. Then the bawking. I do not see where anything you have proffered about this shows any sort of exclusivity. Let us talk geologic events then. You go first. Timing, limitations, what is your specific claim here? Not that we put the other issue to rest.

Okay. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you just want to understand and not just pick a fight.

Like I said, Thomas Glover went into pretty good detail in his book on the LDM. ANY mineral/metal can be dissolved into solution. Just a question of which acid to use (for instance gold can be dissolved into Cyanide). Here is a link where you can read about Trace Metal Analysis with Gas Chromatography:

GC TRACE METAL

To your final question; I have to again refer to Thomas Glovers LDM Book. I don't have it with me right now, but the testing method they used was actually EDS (Energy Dispersive XRay Spectroscopy). An SEM or TEM (Transmission Electron Microscope) is used in that method of testing, but it is only a part. Lets say the Match Safe is from an Epithermal Quartz Deposit. One rumor is that Waltz highgraded his ore when he was working at the Vulture Mine. We have Joseph Porterie that said this ore is unlike anything ever found at the Vulture, and also that there is zero documented evidence that Waltz ever worked there. Lets say that you require more than Porterie's Word that the Match Safe Ore could not have come from the Vulture. Go to the old Vulture Mine (or the Bluebird) and get a sample of Vulture Pay Streak Ore. That ore is tested and shows it is Mesothermal in nature. Because of that, we can EXCLUDE with 100% certainty the Vulture Mine as being the source of the Match Safe Ore. The testing that is currently possible can exclude or include various sources of ore as possible matches.

Now, some things we have to arrive at answers by various methods: Where did the Match Safe come from? Not just Dick Holmes, but a few people got some of the ore from Waltz' Candlebox. Several people had jewelry made from that ore. Cuff Links, Two Rings, Tie Tack, Lady's Bracelet (which may have been altered to be a watch chain), are some of the known ore sample jewelry. If we could get all that jewelry together and do EDS Testing on it, we can tell if it was from the same geologic event. We can put to rest the theory that Waltz Candlebox Ore was an accumulation of many years of prospecting and mining if all the ore was from the same geologic event. By geologic event, I mean that there are three Volcanic Caldera's in the Supers. Two of them overlap, and one is by itself in the Southeastern end of the mountains. Each Caldera has its own fingerprint. In each caldera, the minerals formed differently from the others. Between the three calderas, they covered the Supers in a 40-70 foot layer of volcanic tuff. Here is a caldera map that someone else posted (I apologize for not remembering whom it was):



If all the jewelry matched the EDS Samples of ONE Caldera, we can ASSUME (although I hate to do that) that all the ore samples are from the same mine (source). Using the science we have today, we can eliminate a BUNCH of the theories that have been circulating for many years................... and the more we can eliminate, the closer we get to the actual source.

I can't put it any plainer than that.

Mike