Nibelungen Treasure Part One and Two

grantler

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Rudolf Patzwaldt
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After careful deliberation I have decided to put down a few thoughts on my investigations into the historic Nibelungs. This article
„Can the „Rhinegold“ be found in Rheinbach-Loch near Bonn?“
is dedicated to
„my two treasures!“​
Anna and Katharina Patzwaldt.​
Permission to imprint the first edition is granted to the organisation „Thidrekssaga-Forum e.V.“ in Bonn. The article will be published in the club's periodical „BERNER“ in August 2001. Rudolf Patzwaldt

„Can the „Rhinegold“ be found in Rheinbach-Loch near Bonn?“
Until the year 1983 the Nibelungs seemed nothing more to me than a compulsory and torturous topic for high school students, and I did not find it worthy of any further notice. To my taste, there were too many wild fantasies that had permeated the Song of the Nibelungs, too. But one day I was recommended the remarkable book „Die Nibelungen zogen nordwärts“ by Heinz Ritter. This work investigates the fall of the Nibelungs as it is described in the nordic Thidrekssaga. Up to that date I had already developed an interest in the history of Romans and Franks in the Rhineland as well as I took an interest in the history of mining - maybe that is all related to my being born in Munich but growing up in Essen. But now I began to concentrate on the Nibelungs, my studies always being rather monetary in nature, though. What was it with this famous „hoard of the Nibelungs“, the so-called „Rhinegold“? Nobody in their right mind throws away a hoard of such gigantic proportion, without which the Nibelungs' story would hardly have been worthy of being told over the course of the centuries. Still, the famous monument in Worms would have us believe that all the treasure had been dumped in the floods of the Rhine river. But this madman's myth of the Rhinegold having been lost forever makes no sense at all unless you want to use it in the opera house (you may hear Wagner's Rhine Maidens calling here), However, this whole mystery gave me reason enough to research into the whereabouts of the mighty hoard that the whole legend revolves around. Many times did I study the book by Ritter and read the Thidrekssaga alongside the Edda (translated by Genzmer) and the Song of the Nibelungs (translation by professor Simrock, Bonn). Every time I have considered these sources as equals, taking an unprejudiced look at all of them. I have paid special attention to comparing topographic data with the statements on the whereabouts of the hoard, trying to relate them to each other in a sensible way. In this article, I want to share some of my findings.

The Neffelgau, the Dwarves, and their Treasure
As for the origins of the Nibelungs and their hoard, we may best consult the Edda. The Edda reports (see „Reginsmol“, translation by Henry Adams Bellows) that the treasure originally belonged to the dwarf race of the Nibelungs. Ritter now suspects that these Nibelungs are name-saints of the town of Neffelbach in the surroundings of Zülpich in the Rhineland, but there are no other hints in that direction. Still it is indeed the case that the source area of the river Neffel contains the largest unified mining area, used in Roman times already, that the Rheinisches Landesmuseum in Bonn has ever examined (and Ritter did not know this, as he would have certainly mentioned it then). Undoubtedly, miners had been exploiting the area over an extended period of time in antiquity. Up to today, local lore has it that in the source area of the Neffel there once lived underground people whose leader was a king named Niff. This, too, is a fact that Ritter was apparently completely unaware of. Another fact, this time geographical in nature, is that the Neffel rises to the surface with a constant temperature of 8 degrees Celsius, and it does so even in the coldest of winters. Therefore, the river freezes over only after a few hundred meters of unimpeded flowing. At air temperatures below 8 degrees Celsius, the source area of the Neffel is constantly covered with fog, which one can still witness today. Now to see the miners in the adjacent mining area (so-called dwarves) walking ghostlike through the mist with their lamps must have aroused the imagination of the old folks livin here to quite a remarkable extent. Besides, in the vicinities of the town of Berg near Nideggen, archaeologists have discovered and excavated industrial furnaces used in early Roman metallurgy. Although contemporary metallurgists are not unanimous on this, it can be hypothesized that even very early on, lead and silver were separated in the Neffel source area (H. v. Petrikovits, Rheinische Geschichte, Vol. I, p. 130). The locals in the Nideggen area, especially those from Berg and its surroundings, also point out that the forester's house, located only a few hundred meters above the source of the Neffel, where the steep bank of the river Rur drops, is suspected to mark the spot where Aduatuca was, the main seat of the Celtic tribe of the Eburones. It was here that around 53 BC, Ambiorix, a prince of the Eburones, succeeded to defeat one and a half legions of Julius Cesar's army, resting for the winter in his realm. Under the pretence that the honour of Rome had to be restored, Cesar had the whole Eburone area raided and marauded, once that Aduatuca had finally been conquered. The battles most certainly took place in the Eifel mountain range and in the lowlands of the Cologne, Jülich and Zülpich area (H. v. Petrikovits, ibid., p. 50). Only with great difficulties was Cesar able to conquer the Eburones' main town of Aduatuca as its geographical properties made it attackable from only one side (Caesar, The Gallic Wars, Book VI). In any case, the topological structure of the area between the source of the river Neffel and the bluff of the river Rur are astonishingly similar in detail to the description that Caesar gave of the location. It seems though that more than he had in mind the honour of Rome, Caesar was interested in the hoard of the Eburones which he, however, could not lay his hands on. With much certainty, the wealth of the tribe had already been hidden away carefully before Aduatuca was conquered. It is particularly tempting to think that the hidden treasure was then discovered by the mining people („dwarves) working in the area some time later. That would quite literally lift the mist from the mythological beginnings of the treasure belonging to the „dwarf race of the Nibelungs“, as their hoard could substantially consist of the lost treasure of the Eburones.

Where was „Regin's Smithy“ located?
According to the Edda, the dwarven hoard fell to one Hreidmar, whose sons could not agree on how to divide up their heritage. One of these sons was called Regin. In Germanic, this is a telling name which can be rendered as „he who gives good counsel“. In modern use we know this name as Reinhard or Reiner. However, in modern Rhenish language it is still permittable to call someone by the old name of „Rein“ who would usually go by the name of Reiner. We will have to keep this spelling in mind - „Rein“ indicating Regin - when we discuss the hiding place of the hoard. Now Regin was a blacksmith, and he was to become the foster father of Sigurd/Siegfried. His brother Fafnir, who was called a „dragon“, „worm“, or „serpent“ conned Regin out of his rightful part of the hoard they inherited from their father. Maybe it was in opposition to the wise counselor Regin that Fafnir was said to be false and cunning and to speak with „forked tongue“. The different names that the two brothers were given at least allow for interpretations of their opposing characters. Siegfried, who had been equipped with the mightiest sword by Regin (called Mime in the Song of the Nibelungs), was talked into slaying the „dragon“. But, quite cleverly, Siegfried did not stop there, but instead he killed both brothers, thus becoming lord of the treasure. As for the whereabouts of the hoard, the Edda also states that the Burgundians (named Gjukungs here) took possession of the treasure after Siegfried was murdered. His slayer Hagen was obviously opposed to murdering Siegfried because of greed or other base motives, since he expressly asked the kings whether they wanted to kill Siegfried because of the „gold of the Rhine“ (Sigurtharkvitha En Skamma, verses 16 and 17). No, is the answer, the murder is ordered on grounds of the state: Siegfried had publicly declared to have slept with Brunhild before Gunter. Therefore reasons of honour demand Siegfried´s death, not mere greed. At least that is what is said – because still it was apparently paramount to prevent Kriemhild from inheriting the hoard. Kriemhild, as a woman, was not allowed to possess land, but she could have inherited goods such as the treasure. The question is, however, why Genzmer’s translation already talks of „the gold of the Rhine (Rhein)“? We have to note here that he spells „Rhein“ with an „h“! This is hardly explainable, because it was only long after Siegfried’s death that the hoard was said to have been dumped into the river, thus turning into the mythical „Rhinegold“. At this point, however, the reference to the large German stream does not make any sense at all, at is it completely out of the chronological order of events. But apparently this contradiction has escaped everybody’s notice so far. None of this has been remarked upon in any interpretation of the Edda, so that it appears that no one has even paid the slightest attention to this so far. If we assume, however, that this mention is made in reference to „Regin's gold“ (Rein’s gold), the Edda would be correct. But then any reference to the noble river would be totally misplaced here. If the legends indeed have their origin in the Cologne language area, we must also consider that the Ripuarian-Frankian language (the Cologne language of today), according to Prof. Adam Wrede, does not have a sound corresponding to high German „g“. The substitute sound is a “j“. The “good” water of Cologne is therefore not said to be „gut“, but pronounced „joot“. „Günter“, in this language area is pronounced “Jünter“. The underlying reason is the same sound shift that has turned the German word „Tag“ into the English word „day“, if spelled with a „y“ instead of a „j“. What is the significance of all this? Now because of this shift the name of Regin would be rendered as Rejin or Rein here. Most unfortunately now, this very word received an additional „h“ in Genzmer's translation of the Edda, so that the name of Regin (Rein) was turned into the name of the river Rhine (Rhein) and was thus given a completely different meaning. Maybe it was the association with the „Rhinegold“ of the Song of the Nibelungs that influenced Genzmer in his translation, with all the romantic views only the 19th century could provide. The name of the river Rhine, we must note, has always been pronounced as „Ring“ in the Cologne area. Most probably, now, this misplaced „h“ could be the key to where the treasure really lies!

What does the „Rhine river“ have to do with Siegfried's death?
What is most remarkable in topographical terms is, that the Edda renders a completely useless hint as to the place of Siegfried's (Sigurth’s) murder. It says here: „Slain was Sigurth south of the Rhine“ (Brot Af Sigurtharkvithu, verse 5, translation by Bellows). Once again we find the Rhine in this translation (in Genzmer’s German version it is the river Rhein with an „h“ instead of Rein/ Regin). Now south of the Rhine is a completely pointless designation, as the river Rhine runs from the south to the north of Germany. So south of what? South of Wesel, south of Cologne or Mainz? Why should a reference like that be at all useful? If we consult the Song of the Nibelungs, in contrast, the only geographical hint we find is that Siegfried was slain by a „cold well“ (in German „kalten Brunnen“). As far as the Nibelungs’ hoard is concerned after the Gjukungs had taken possession of it, the Edda states nothing at all about its whereabouts. The only inferences one can make can be drawn from the frequently analyzed scene in which Hagen is questioned about the hoard. In all the manuscripts of the Thidrekssaga, Hagen is said to state before he dies that the treasure is in Siegfried's cellar, the place of which is secured by certain keys. Allegorically speaking these „keys“ may hint to some kind of encryption. Be that as it may, the mention of a cellar is a clear indication of a subterranean hiding place, and no mention is be made of any kind of river or „Rhinegold“. Heinz Ritter considers the hoard to be located in a cave in Westphalia (in the „Hohler Stein“ near Kallenhardt in the Sauerland area), and he does so on the basis of the so-called story of Aldrian's revenge, that is appended to all the Thidrekssaga manuscripts. But we must note that the story only commences once the men from Soest have claimed to tell a true story. It can therefore be counted as somewhat dubious. In addition to that, none of the other sources state that the treasure had been carried on the way to Kriemhild, but certainly that would have been noted. It is highly unlikely that one would have retrieved the treasure from its hiding-place, just to play it into Kriemhilds's hands! It seems that Ritter should have taken a more critical look at his sources, or else should have taken other sources into consideration, too. In the story of the fall of the Nibelungs, as stated in the Edda, Hagen relies to Kriemhild's question for the location of the treasure, that “wolves aged and grey-hued” and “black-coated bears“ would rather have the treasure than her (Atlakvitha En Grönlenzka, verse 11). This is also a hint to a subterranean hideaway, as wolf and bear are typical cave-dwellers, in zoological terms. No Rhinegold in sight! Even according to the Songs of the Nibelungs (verse 2442), Hagen states to Kriemhild that after the murder of the Burgundians there was no one besides god and himself who knew where the hoard lies. As for Kriemhild, it „shall ever be hid from” her („verhohlen“ in Simrock’s translation). This expression – which in German reminds one of the words Höhle (cave) and Hehler (fence, receiver of stolen goods) – would not have been used by Hagen if he had dumped the treasure into the Rhine waters. Besides, the word „verhohlen“ rather indicates a subterranean vault. Why now does the Song of the Nibelungs, on the other hand, state that Hagen „sunk it all at Loche in the Rhine” („sancte in da ze Loche allen in den Rin“)? Again we find the insertion of the „h“ (verse 1158)! And why does Simrock, in his German translation, render „senken“, with no apparent reason as „ver-senken“? Why the prefix? That is only explainable if the idea of the river Rhine is guiding one’s mind here. However, the word „sancte“ in the original source might as well indicate a solemn ceremony of consecration. Does not Hagen state that no one knows where the hoard is, except for god and himself? It has always been doubted that Hagen referred to the Christian God here, as in crossing the Rhine not long before, he slew a Christian priest. Because of its capitalization in the mid-Germanic language, the word „Loch“ can only indicate a place name, not just any hole (Loch) dug in the ground. But what if Hagen even alludes to the celtic underworld god of betrayal, Lug (in Germanic Loki), he who is the patron of Lyon (Lugdunum), as all readers of Asterix know? This god’s name is still resounding today when we talk of „lies and betrayal“ (in German „Lug und Betrug“), and he is patron to the word „Lüge“ (lie). In the Ripuarian-Frankian language area, we still say „Loch und Bedroch“ for „lies and betrayal“. „Sancte ze Loche in (den) R(h)ein“! That would have been really cunning, if Hagen had dedicated the hoard he stole from Kriemhild to the underworld god of betrayal. That way, his deed would truly have been sanctioned ( or „sanct“ioned). And just to note: miners, in their traditional wording, still call a sloping tunnel a „Gesenk“ in German.

Surprising Geographic Discoveries
One Sunday I happened to drive along the highway from Bonn to Zülpich — right through where the Thidrekssaga would suspect the historic Nibelungs to have had their territory. To my left, on a hill top, lay the ruins of castle Tomburg, the landmark of Rheinbach. Before me, on my right, I could see the sign indicating the highway exit „Rheinbach“ with its arrow pointing right, thus indicating the direction towards Bonn and the river Rhine. What a splendid contradiction! The arrow on the sign erroneously pointed to the river Rhine, although it was indicating the way to „Rheinbach“ town, which actually lay in the opposite direction. That morning, though, it was my investigation that should take a different turn. I asked myself, why the town to the left of the highway should carry the „h“ in its name. Historically speaking, the town of Rheinbach has never been on the Rhine at all! Must we suspect to see the same error here that crept into the translations of the Edda and the Song of the Nibelungs? And all this even in the name of a town that lies within the suspected realm of the historic Nibelungs? Now what happens with the old scripts if we, for once, set the town of Rheinbach for what later was rendered as the river Rhine in the translations? Could it be the same thing as with the Dunowe/ Danube? According to Ritter, this name actually indicates the Dhün, a tributary of the Rhine near Leverkusen. It is most plausible that the writers of the Song of the Nibelungs (as well as its modern translators) had no choice but to think of the river Rhine when they came across the name of Rheinbach, or rather, Reinbach. But if it is not from the river Rhine, where then does Rheinbach actually have its name from? This question would have to remain unanswered that morning. I, however, decided not to continue my travels to Zülpich, but chose to study the vicinity of Rheinbach — making use of nothing but an ordinary Shell road map at first. It took me about half an hour to arrive at the little township of „Loch“, which belongs to Rheinbach. Rheinbach-Loch: nowthis name truly resounds of „Ein Loch ze Rheine” in the Song of the Nibelungs. I parked my car in the center of the township to take a walk. My first glance fell on a street sign that pointed to a ravine and read „Alte Höhle“ (old cavern). Indeed, there were indications of subterranean places here. A few days later, a visit to the library of the Rheinisches Landesmuseum in Bonn confirmed that the name Rheinbach indeed stems from „Reginsbach“. Thus the first evidence by documents reads: Town on a creek (Bach), where the Frankish lord of the name of Regin must have had his seat. So originally it must have been Reinbach. Only in later documents, and without any apparent reason, the treacherous „h” has crept behind the first letter. In the land registry office in Bonn-Bad Godesberg I found hints that the ravine is indeed not named „Alte Höhle“ (or old cavern, as the street-sign says), but „An den Höhlen“ (by the caverns). However, as the locals of Loch state, there aren't any caverns known in the vicinity. Best of all, they claimed, the ravine itself (in German: „Hohlweg“) could be referred to here. But in Rhenish it would then have been more likely for the name to have been rendered without any preposition, for example as „Holle“ or maybe also as „Hölle“. Interestingly enough, the parcels of land above the ravine are called „Auf den Höhlen“ (on the caverns). Now if underneath the field there truly are caverns no one knows about anymore today, I would propose that it is here that we should start searching for the hoard of the Nibelungs. And in fact, I have been able to secure knowledge that indeed there are cavities underneath that field.

which is called Wormersdorf. Not only does that sound like the town of Worms on the river Rhine, that was later to become an imperial stronghold, but if you just leave away the ending „-dorf“, which only indicates a settlement, quite indisputably the name of „Worms“ will remain. According to Professor Mürkens from Swisttal, who has made himself an outstanding name in the scholarship of Rhenish place names, the name Wormersdorf comes from the old high German word „Wurmhari“, which means „dragon fighter“. Whether this means that someone fought like a dragon here or that he fought By the way, the ruins of the Rheinbach castle of Tomburg are located in a different part of town against someone dragon-like, will remain unsolved. However, the town of Worms cannot make any such claim in favor of its own claim to be the Nibelungs' seat. If you now direct your look „south of the Rhine“ - in the sense I laid out here, so „south of Rheinbach-Wormersdorf“(and a mere Shell road map is sufficient here again), you will find, in a distance of about 6 km bee-line, the township of Kalenborn. In Rhenish, this is nothing less than a „cold well“ or a „cold spring“. Could it be that Siegfried was slain here? The topology is right, and the location „south of the R(h)ine“, as is written in the Edda, makes sense and, for once, would also render an actual hint to a location. In Kalenborn, the Swist rises, a river that was already sacred to the Celts and which gave its name to the area surrounding Rheinbach named Swisttal. Especially the source area of this river, which even carries a heightened sense of holiness, would have been suitable to sanction a murder that was to be justified by higher motives. The curse of the holy place, tainted by a murder, has not (or yet not right away) hit Hagen. Thus, his murder found justification in the choice of such a dignified place.
 

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grantler

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Nibelunen Treasure Part 2

By the way, not far off of this source, southeast across the river Ahr, but still within the limits of a reasonable hunting trip, although not facing Wolmersdorf, there is the little town of „Spessart“ within a forest of the same name (about 15 km bee-line away from Kalenborn). It is the only place in Germany of this name with its own a postal code. And there, so says the Song of the Nibelungs, took place the hunt on which Siegfried lost his life. ('Then spoke Hagen: „Dear my lord, I weened that the hunt should be in the Spessart wood, therefore sent I thither the wine.“', verse 982).
Is this all a mere coincidence? I may not judge on that. It would be unscholarly, too, because the appraisal of these circumstances as coincidence would be nothing more than speculation. One may believe in one coincidence, but to deal with a whole series of coincidences would be highly unlikely. Especially so, if those "coincidences" can unite all the sources we have of the fall of the Nibelungs and the whereabouts of their treasure into one single interpretation, that would even be correct in its topographical detail. All in all it appears that, if you follow my argument, the Thidrekssaga is not at all in contradiction with the Song of the Nibelungs, but quite to the opposite, this epic, just like the Edda, seems to confirm everything that is said in the Thidrekssaga.

Rudolf Patzwaldt, Munich
 

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sorry about my dobble post ???
can a moderator delate my dobble post , please ....
 

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Gidday Grantler

Interesting story. I do not know enough of story to make a constructive comment but I have picture of the original document.

Nibelungenlied_manuscript-c_f1r.jpg

But raggedy old crows have one failing curiosity gets the better of them. And indeed no doubt I will be losing a few feathers trying.

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Hello Grantler

One thing with oral traditions they have, at least in some cases, a historical core. However, various historical events and figures have been melded together into a single plot in such a way that the original historical context has been lost to history. Its not the first time such stories evolve over time.


The epic, and presumably the oral traditions that provided its material, have transformed historical events into relatively simple narrative schemas that can be compared with other, similar (originally) oral narratives from other cultures. like a foundation myth.

The Nazis did later exploit the epic as part of their Nazi Foundation myth of the Germanic peoples. However do any of epic refer to traceable places and locations of treasure?

Many place name predating 12th century do not exists yet even many names of places from the 12 century fail to survive the passage of times. Anyone searching this epic for clues would best try to establish the locations of the names given to present day sites. Not impossible but tiresome task.

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Gidday Grantler

Tomburg Castle ruins below.

castle-3415354_960_720.jpg

According to legend, a golden cradle is to be found on the bottom of the preserved castle fountain. The child, who once lay in the cradle, had died before the legend. The Count had cast down the golden cradle to end the Countess's mourning. According to another legend, a key is to be found in the well, which opens the treasure cave of the last knight of Tomburg. The treasure, however, is guarded by mastiffs who are waiting for the return of their master, who will rebuild the castle with the help of the treasure.

Here is the well pictured below.

castle well 2.JPG

inside the well below you can see the debris filled well. Does it hold a key for the mythical treasure cave?

castle well.JPG

If this castle has a link with the epic perhaps other sites around the area can be linked also?


Could it be that Siegfried was slain here?

Crow
 

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Hello Grantler

in answer to your question below.

But if it is not from the river Rhine, where then does Rheinbach actually have its name from?

You have to break up the word to understand. We have to look at names surviving in England. The Saxons invaded England and lot of place names are from the Saxons. And old Saxon English spelling for the word for stream is "Beck" However the Saxon Germanic spelling is Bach. So in effect Rheinbach means Stream of the Rhine.

Incidentally the word beck is only found in areas in England inhabited by Saxons. In Scotland Wales and Ireland you will rarely if ever see the word "Beck" The word "Bach" got Anglicized over time into Beck"

I have no doubts no all streams had official names but it would be easy use the term Rheinbach to describe a small unnamed stream flowing into the Rhine. This stream could in effect be considerable distance from the Rhine itself but flows into the Rhine hence the name.

Crow
 

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Hello Grantler

Tomberg castle has a long history. The earliest traces of settlement on the Tomberg date to the 4th century and point to its use by the Romans.

The hill castle was constructed around the year 900 and was expanded in later centuries.


Later Around 1000, Count Palatine Ezzo of Lotharingia and his wife Matilda a sister of Emperor Otto the 3rd resided at the Tomburg. Their daughter richeza became Queen of Poland.

Her brother Otto inherited the Palatinate. He became Duke of Swabia in 1045 and died at the Tomburg in 1047. Ownership changed to the Duke of Cleaves in 1090 and to the Lords of Müllenark in 1230.

From that point on wards, they called themselves von Tomburg. The picture below of the castle of how it looked in later period before its destruction.

nrw_tomburg.jpg

It was almost totally destroyed by cannon on 7 September 1473 and never rebuilt.

However we have to look deeper into the era before the 12th century in fact in the years after Roman occupation. A Germanic chieftains that evolved after 259 AD The area (Agri Decumates) between Main and Rhine was evacuated in 259 AD, dozens of Roman camps were abandoned.

Archeologists have come to the conclusion there was several factors as the Rhine itself acted as frontier but the Germanic tribes became accustomed to trading with the Roman empire and over time many Germanic people west of the Rhine became more Romanized. However even when the Roman empire contracted and withdrew....

The Romanised Germanic tribes continued on for nearly two centuries until totally engulfed by refugees of Germanic tribes east of the Rhine who was fleeing incursions from the Huns in the east.

The hill Tomberg castle sits on most likely known to the Romans as observation hill over the surrounding countryside and having a spring made it an important site. After the collapse after 4 centuryt no doubt perhaps a timber strong hold hill fort existed before the existing one today.

No doubt the Song of the Nibelungs was 12th century romanticized version of earlier events of minor kingdoms that evolved between 400ad and 100AD in which a kingdom of Sigried ruled the surrounding area. It would not beyond the realms of impossability as the wealth of theses Germanic Roman tribes ended up in possession of later warlords in the region after 400 AD. And thus the story of Sigmund although high romanticized is partial memory of earlier events.

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Here is report...of treasure discovery

BERLIN (Reuters) - A hobby archaeologist with a metal detector has discovered a trove of gold and silver in a German forest dating back to late Roman times, fuelling speculation it could be the legendary Nibelung treasure that inspired Richard Wagner’s opera cycle?


The haul from the western state of Rhineland Palatinate, worth about 1 million euros, includes silver bowls, brooches and other jewelry from ceremonial robes and small statues that adorned a grand chair, said archaeologists.
“In terms of timing and geography, the find fits in with the epoch of the Nibelung legend,” Axel von Berg, the state’s chief archaeologist was quoted by German media as saying.


“But we cannot say whether it actually belongs to the Nibelung treasure,” he said, adding that whoever owned it had “lived well” and could have been a prince.


The haul, which was found near Ruelzheim in the southern part of the state, is now at the state cultural department in Mainz, but officials suspect they may not have all of it. Prosecutors have begun an inquiry into the man who found the treasure because they suspect he may have sold some of it, possibly to a buyer abroad, the department said.


“The spot where the find was made was completely destroyed by the improper course of action,” it said in a statement.

Whether the treasure is the famous “Rhinegold” or not, it seems to have been buried in haste by its owner or by robbers in around 406-407 AD, when the Roman Empire was crumbling in the area along the Rhine, von Berg said in a statement.


According to Nibelung legend, the warrior Hagen killed the dragon-slayer Siegfried and sank his treasure in the Rhine river. The Rhine has shifted its course many times over the centuries, so the treasure need no longer be under water.
Although it is the stuff of myths, the story is based on the downfall of the Burgundians in the 5th century.


You can see some of the treasure below...

Nibelung-treasure-2.jpg

Actually connected to the legend or not it does make one wonder if certain parts of 12th century epic poem might indeed include information pertaining to treasure being lost in the 5th century?

Crow
 

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grantler

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Hello Crow,
first , thank´s a lot for your cool pictures and contribution´s which are very interesting :-)
second , I must say this story is not mine . These are the research result´s from my friend Rudolf Patzwaldt .
In 2002 we did a Video with the SWR (Süd West Radio ) , visiting all the locations , like Tom Burg Castel , Swift Quelle ( Where Sigfried was killed ) and of corse the cave ( sze Loche) :-))
Will try to post some pictures later .
 

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Tomburg 3..png
here is one more sketch about the castle
we are looking for more pictures
One more Thing , the Ruelzheim Treasure has absolutly nothing to do with the Nibelungs .
The Rülzheim thing is purly roman times !
 

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Karte Nibelung 1..png
You can see that all the locations are close by ,in the near vicinity .
This picktur shoul be at the end of the part one text :-)
 

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Hello Grantler

What date did the events of Nibelungs happen 5th or 6th centuries? Curious to know the time frame as a lot was happening in the power vacuum after the fall of roman empire. We had the Huns. Anglo Saxon migrations to Britain Frankish war and other power struggles in the area.

Please do continue......

Crow
 

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Hi Crow ,
Well the dates for the Nibelungs event was around the 4th - 5th centuries . The "Story" startet as oral tradition and only as late as the 12th or 13th century it was written down !
grantler
If you like to have a look on google earth 50`35 " 44" N and 6`53" 24 " E Thats where the ""Hole or Cave "" is :wave: see you guy´s there !
 

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TomburgFlug.jpg
The Castle from a flight over we took for the Video
Swist-Quelle1.jpg
This is the Swist Spring where Sigfried was supposed to be killed by Hagen
And one more Picture from inside the Castle
Tomburg Turmruine2.jpg
VORRATSRAEUME1.JPG
All Fotos made by Hagen Simonek
 

Crow

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Hello Grantler

Thanks once again for the posts. I gather this is the cave below that is suspected connected to the story?

2.JPG

4.JPG

If my memory serves me correct? The sealed off section had human remains in the floor of the cave?. If old Crows bird brain is correct was the human remains dated to 5th century?

Crow
 

tintin_treasure

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Crow ,,resourceful as always! It is good the lockdown came and we have you here as before :)

TT
 

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Gidday TT



Old Crow is just roosting at present killing at little time. Until things pick up we have a few projects on the back burner. I lost with some projects and investments and gained on others. In all marginally in front. So I cannot complain.

Trick is to diverse your investments and projects. Never rely on one sole income source.

How are you? How is your part of the world going?

Crow
 

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