Not possible digging that deep.

Roadhse2

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Nahhh...I showed your tag line to point out your hypocrisy...Like removing your Master Engineer claim from your latest post who you cited in your previous post did all of this when I called you on it....Now it is other engineers. Not named this time...

Several sources cite people living and working on the island as early as 1750's, with settler occupation beginning in 1761... here is an easy one from a source you had cited as a source earlier....

"The first known persons to definitely take up land on Oak Island were the New York fish agents John Gifford and Richard Smith who were granted three islands in Mahone Bay in 1753, including the whole of Oak Island (7). There is evidence they used Oak Island as a base for their fishing operation off the coast of Nova Scotia in the 1750s"

Then we have the other families that were granted land in 1759, do you suppose they may have lived there?

Then surveyed into lots in 1762, why would they survey into lot's if there was no market for them? Records show lots purchased at that time. Your map only shows what lots Samuel Ball owned, by most accounts and poll records from Chester where had lived, he moved to the island in 1808/9, after the finding of the Money Pit and during the time of one treasure company looking for it.

But let's back up a bit and ask why? Why would anyone build such an elaborate system on land that had been surveyed to be sold to hide treasure they expected to come back to at a later date, when by that time there could be Walmarts and Dollar Generals all over the island, or at least settlers, farms, cattle and crops...right where their treasure was buried? Where secrecy would be impossible? Not probable...

"George Washington was initiated into that Lodge as an Entered Apprentice on Nov. 4th, 1752; that later he was duly passed and the Degree of Fellow-Craft was conferred upon him on March 3rd, 1753; and that on the 4th of August 1753 he was Raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason."

From apprentice to Master Mason in 18 months? At age 21? Ummm ok...You know any Masons? "that's not how it works, it's just not how it works!" Someone said.....

Yes he was asked later on about being a Grand Master and declined because he had never become a Master level first and did not feel it was right to take this higher position...Later he took the Charter Master position because the Virginian chapters wanted to get out from under the Pennsylvania charter and had to elect a Charter Master to do so, mainly a position with limited duties. If I remember right the Alexandria, VA Lodge still has those letters asking and him replying...as well as the bible he took his inauguration oath on, which they still use for ceremonies.. So either way,,,, He was still not the Grand Master of Masons of DC while President as you claimed.
 

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gazzahk

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So after some more research
Believing now that the flooding tunnels were connected to the sea, men scoured the island's shores. At an area known as Smith's Cove, they found a fascinating structure. The company built a temporary dam, called a cofferdam, to uncover a large overlay made of coconut husk, 145 feet wide and the length of space between low tide and high tide. Underneath the coconut husk was a layer of beach stones five feet deep. Beneath the beach stones were five finger-drains constructed of flat stones, converging into a single drain. The coconut husk worked as a barrier against sand to allow water into the drains.
However, soon after the company found the mysterious finger drains, a storm hit and destroyed the cofferdam. The company then decided to dig shafts between Smith's Cove and the Money Pit in an attempt to intercept and divert the seawater away from the Money Pit. However, after failing to reach water in this shaft, and after digging several more, the company ran out of funds and gave up.

Source: The Truro Company Discovers the Finger Drains - How Oak Island Works | HowStuffWorks

referencing this book: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=yo_xAgAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en

Thus it does seem these drains where old even in the 1850s. The 145 foot wide coconut fiber/eel grass does seem to suggest the whole beach was covered and not just the drains... I have never before seen the reference to 5 foot layer of beach stones under the coconut fiber. If true this really suggest that the people who did these construction really wanted to keep that beach dry of water...
 

Roadhse2

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Or waterproof the beach as best they could to not lose water into the sand....

Like for a salt operation....

Just sayin'

hahahahahahaha

Hope you're doing well..this stuff will drive ya crazy!
 

gazzahk

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Or waterproof the beach as best they could to not lose water into the sand....

Like for a salt operation....

Just sayin'

hahahahahahaha

Hope you're doing well..this stuff will drive ya crazy!
I just do not see the salt theory my friend. This whole effort would not result in increased salt concentration. The drainage of the water would simply be exactly the same salt concentration. With that much drainage no salt would sit on the sand... etc I do not wish to go over old ground but as said before to me the "salt theory does not hold water":laughing7:....

So leave it aside and what is left.

It does seem that the people who built this system went to a great deal of effort to filter water through a hidden drain system for some reason.

Maybe the owner of the island wanted a nice beach.... (Is the sand on the beach originally from Oak Island or was it brought from elsewhere?)
 

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Roadhse2

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"This whole effort would not result in increased salt concentration. The drainage of the water would simply be exactly the same salt concentration."

Except for that nasty fact that is still how they do it today and for the same reason...including good old Morton salt company right here in the USA...

But hey...no sweat...as some one once said "What difference at this point does it make anyway?"
 

gazzahk

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If there was going to be a catch phrase for Oak Island I think it was given in the previous article quote

"the company ran out of funds and gave up." All that effort and nothing to show for it...

I wonder if that is how history will finish up with the Laginas......
 

gazzahk

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Or waterproof the beach as best they could to not lose water into the sand....
Sorry I just noticed this. This is the exact opposite. Water would leave the beach straight away. From top down. Sand (lets assume at least 6-12 inches) Coconut fiber/eel grass layer, then five foot of stones, then drains all this on a sloping beach... No water would sit on the sand once the tide went down. It would just drain away. Even if you blocked the drain exit this would have 5 or so foot of water being trapped between the beach and the drains...

You would have to let the whole tide in to cover the whole beach as it is sloping. therefore the bottom section of beach would be under at least 10+ foot of water.

I really must read J.Steels book at some time and see how she explains her Naval stores theory...
 

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Roadhse2

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gazzahk...old buddy...

I could counter that argument, but i'm not going too...mainly tired

Tired enough I am going to go with Robot's theory and call it good...because it makes more sense that someone would do all this work to hide something with flood tunnels that no one in over 200 years and millions of bucks has been able to find any real evidence of at all...Yeah...i'm going with that...it will be much easier

Baaaaaaa (the sound of me getting in line) hahahahaha

Later my friend!
 

Robot

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Oh! Mini Me!..."When Will We When But Agree"?

Nahhh...I showed your tag line to point out your hypocrisy

Why would anyone build such an elaborate system on land that had been surveyed to be sold to hide treasure they expected to come back to at a later date, when by that time there could be Walmarts and Dollar Generals all over the island, or at least settlers, farms, cattle and crops...right where their treasure was buried? Where secrecy would be impossible? Not probable...

Agree...Robot.jpg

When the Freemasons were pushed into a corner with what appeared to be an unwinnable war (Seven Years' War) and possibly the destruction of the Freemason Society, the hope they placed for their Salvation was Oak Island.
 

Charlie P. (NY)

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The Freemasons were involved in the Seven Years War? That's news to me.

Were they on the side of the French or the British?
 

Roadhse2

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Hey Loki...

Your post about Louis & Clark reminded me of a show we were watching last night, Naked and Afraid...

These two were about to die of dehydration, while sitting on a beach...they had fire, they had coconut shells from the few they had found to get food and water out of, they had a metal pot with lid...

What they didn't have was enough McGyver in them to get themselves out of this jam, the same as Louis & Clark did, but in reverse...

They could have taken a pot of sea water, set it on the fire, propped one half the coconut shell over it at an angle to gather the steam coming off the water and condense it so it would drip into the other coconut half and have clean distilled water to drink....slow sure....but water none the less that would be enough to save them...they were about ready to tap out and instead dug a 5 foot deep hole, with the pan, to let water seep into it...got about 6 inches of nasty smelly water that they had to boil to kill the grungies in it...and then that ran out. hahaha and they had a never ending source 50 foot from them if they used their heads.

Wife and I were cracking up....We have been wanting to go on the show, but she called them and said we were to old!

Well...we are old, 65 and 62, fat and lazy...but still smart enough to know the first thing you do is to make something for shoes, cause you hurt your feet and you are stuck! Very few of them ever get around to doing that...just complain how much their feet hurt...lol

So now we are trying to get our own show...Afraid to be Naked...aimed at old people...
 

Robot

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Where there is One Coconut...There has to be More...Put the Lime in the Coconut and..

Hey Loki...

Your post about Louis & Clark reminded me of a show we were watching last night, Naked and Afraid...

These two were about to die of dehydration, while sitting on a beach...they had fire, they had coconut shells from the few they had found to get food and water out of, they had a metal pot with lid...

What they didn't have was enough McGyver in them to get themselves out of this jam, the same as Louis & Clark did, but in reverse...

They could have taken a pot of sea water, set it on the fire, propped one half the coconut shell over it at an angle to gather the steam coming off the water and condense it so it would drip into the other coconut half and have clean distilled water to drink....slow sure....but water none the less that would be enough to save them...they were about ready to tap out and instead dug a 5 foot deep hole, with the pan, to let water seep into it...got about 6 inches of nasty smelly water that they had to boil to kill the grungies in it...and then that ran out. hahaha and they had a never ending source 50 foot from them if they used their heads.

Wife and I were cracking up....We have been wanting to go on the show, but she called them and said we were to old!

Well...we are old, 65 and 62, fat and lazy...but still smart enough to know the first thing you do is to make something for shoes, cause you hurt your feet and you are stuck! Very few of them ever get around to doing that...just complain how much their feet hurt...lol

So now we are trying to get our own show...Afraid to be Naked...aimed at old people...

For My Generation!

 

gazzahk

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gazzahk

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I am going to go with Robot's theory and call it good!
Ha ha... I am sure he will appreciate the support and now there are at least two people in the world that believe his theory...:icon_thumleft:

I am also a lot less convinced with the fish drying theory as it seems a extremely large amount of work to have setup this on the beach.

First the coffer dam would of needed to be built
Then the sand would need to be cleared and stored (If it was there originally) from the beach
The beach would of then needed to be dug down to the low water mark
Then enough rocks would have needed to be collected to cover 145 feet wide and from the high water to low water mark to make a 5 feet high hill of rocks in that area
Then the box drains would of need to be built
Then covered in rocks
Then the builders would of needed to have obtained enough coconut fiber to cover that area (eel grass to)
Then after covering the rocks in this stuff the sand would have to be put back on top to at least 1-2 feet in order to stop it just washing away with the tide
The dam would then need removing

Seems a lot of effort to make a dry beach for fish drying...

To me it looks like foundations being made for some structure on the beach.. Thus I do now wish to see J.Steeles detailed theory. At least the British navy would of had the means to build something like this.

I cannot see the alleged treasure hiders doing this as it makes zero sense to go to that level just to cover the entrance to a flood tunnel. They would only have needed to put the stones etc near the entrance. There would be no need for 5 finger drains etc. It really looks like an attempt to make the beach stay dry. It all looks like a system to drain water away from a man made beach to me...

It at least seems to explain the bolderless beach that exists on the island (They had to get the stones from somewhere)......
 

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Roadhse2

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The two pictures were obviously taken not to far apart in time....though the one credited to Joy does show some debris quite a ways out in the cove that looks like a tree trunk....showing just how flat and shallow the cove was for quite some ways...kind of like the Gulf of Mexico where you can walk out for 500 feet and still be in knee deep water for much of it. The coffer dams built were not much past that spot where the tree trunk (whatever it is) lies...and no reason to remove one when built, it would only help to keep the beach dry for those fish...the sun would still get to them. The drains still drain toward the land, to a well, so I have no idea how that would keep the beach dry.

As for the other stuff...10 years ago (when I was a weee bit younger) my wife, I, and my 2 sons (built like tanks). could have built all that over a summer by ourselves, using a horse or two pulling carts for the heavy stuff, like rocks....of that I am pretty convinced, as we spent our lives doing a lot of manual labor that involved shovels and moving rocks!

Just kidding, kinda...but it is really not a big engineering feat or long term project with a crew of guys and a few simple pieces of equipment they would have back then.

Edit to add...Looking at that pic again this morning, I may have been mistaken, that may not be a tree trunk in the water, but a small sailboat, 20 foot or so it looks like to me. I can't blow it up enough to really tell. But it looks like it has a covered cabin, which wouldn't be on very many under 20 boats...maybe someone else can tell for sure.

Also the square boulder seems to be there, so that gives some perspective to size and positioning when looking at the drain sketches.

Those trees are the weirdest looking oak trees I have ever seen, and I know no one has been able to really identify what they are...but we have millions of oaks here and never any like that.
 

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Roadhse2

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The Oak Island Mystery Solved ...J Steele

On Amazon, Kindle edition download...$8.69...Paperback new $10.93 + shipping....Paperback new with Prime, 2 day shipping $14.87
 

Roadhse2

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"It really looks like an attempt to make the beach stay dry. It all looks like a system to drain water away from a man made beach to me..."

Other than the drains slanting back towards shore, what else can we tell from those pics?

You want a dry beach...move inland 15 feet, no fuss no muss, toss down your beach blanket, open the cooler and toss out a few fish to dry in the sun....Turn on the boombox and make a day of it!

The point being, it's not like the had a steep incline or a rocky shore with no beach where an artificial beach would be needed...plenty of high and dry already.
 

Charlie P. (NY)

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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Charlie P. (NY) The Freemasons were involved in the Seven Years War? That's news to me.


Were they on the side of the French or the British?



When the Freemasons were pushed into a corner with what appeared to be an unwinnable war (Seven Years' War) and possibly the destruction of the Freemason Society, the hope they placed for their Salvation was Oak Island.

I guess then it was a case of them being trapped in an unwinnable war because they were fighting among themselves?

They could have just started over. That war was only a couple dozen years from when they were first organized.
 

Roadhse2

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gazzahk....

I just wanted to mention that we have to be very careful taking first, second, third hand, reports of what was found in the cove...Those that said they found 5 foot deep of rock in 1850, 'may' have found one small area like that, to fill a hole for example, and then assumed the whole beach was the same. They were afterall digging by hand, a very small (and slow) clamshell digger, and possibly horse drawn drags to remove tons and tons of cover material to uncover the area, could only know if the whole beach was 5' deep in rocks if they stripped the whole thing...and the coffer dam failed at some point before they had completed that, so they gave up...so alot of what they reported could just be on digging a spot here, spot there, and assuming it was all the same.

When you look at the Dunfield or Restall pics, 8mm video, do you see tons of rocks being pushed around? Any piles anywhere? Because 154 feet by just 20 feet of rock 5 foot deep is a LOT of rock. 685 cubic yards or 855.5 tons....about 70 dumptruck loads today, enough for a small mountain. I don't see any evidence of that anywhere in pics we have. Or anywhere on the island it could have come from, not even a Money Pit...

So the same thing can be said about the fibre and eel grass, they may have found patches of it in an area and assumed it covered the whole beach....but we also see none of that from anyone else....

One thing that can be said with surety, as you said earlier and I have been saying all along, there is no reason for any of this to flood a tunnel, it doesn't matter if that tunnel is 5'x3' as Robot says or 2'x2'...a one square foot hole would flood it just as easily as a ten foot hole. The supposed trap mechanism to set it off, was at the other end at the shaft, so the tunnel would be full just as soon as the coffer dam that would be needed to build it was gone. Just like a plumbing drain, the water would go in and there it would sit until the trap was sprung, then it would seek it's own level in the shaft to match the tide in the sea.
 

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