Oak Island the Strange, the Bizarre, and Maybe the "Truth!

[ECS]

Instead of your usual deflecting questions of dropped names of actual real historians deployed as a false credibility to avoid documented hard facts that conflict with your coir fueled fantasy Templar New World voyage, please produce actual quotes by Addison, Lord, and Read that dispute the established fact that the Templar warrior noble class knights did not captain and crew the ships of their "fleet" but employed hired crews overseen by their black robed sergeant common class brother monks, or that they had or had the need for vessels designed for a transatlantic voyage.

 

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[ECS]

...The Templar historian Charles Addison claims they had, galleys, galliots, and other vessels in the order on pg.156 of his "History of the Knights Templar...

On what page does Templar historian claim the warrior Templars manned the oars of their galley fleet, or mentioned a Templar seafarer by name, or confirmed a voyage to Oak Island/Annapolis Basin, Nova Scotia?
Can you cite the page where Evelyn Lord or Piers Paul Read stated that the Templars made this voyage leaving coir behind as evidence of this visit?
When name dropping real Templar historians, one should utilize information and quotes that are germane to the actual discussion, Loki.

 

[ECS]

The Holy Grail will miraculously appear on Nova Scotia in 2021 validating the Cathars of course.

Do Templar historians Addison, Lord, and Read agree with your claim of a Templar voyage to Nova Scotia to hide the Grail, which you stated many times they recovered during the Crusades in the Holy Land?
Seems like you are mixing up all these pseudohistory stories together, Loki, hoping they will support your various premises.

 

[lokiblossom]

Just out of curiosity, what is a "short range merchant vessel"? How far could one go and how large were they? Did they have this type of vessel in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean?

How is the fleet "alleged" if they did indeed have a fleet? Does your acknowledgement of a fleet mean a win for me in an earlier argument?

The Templar historian Charles Addison claims they had, galleys, galliots, and other vessels in the order on pg.156 of his "History of the Knights Templar. What type of ship do you suppose a "galliot or other vessel would be?

Would these, short range merchant vessels, be part of the fleet mentioned by Templar historian, Evelyn Lord, in this statement
"Their main fleet was in La Rochelle, and it was this fleet, berthed away from the theatre of war, that was part of the maritime network linking the order in the British Isles, with the continent"?

If this was the main fleet at La Rochelle, does that indicate they had more than one fleet? Perhaps a Mediterranean fleet and an Atlantic fleet?

Cheers, Loki

Oh yeah, I should have added this. Some sailors were indeed hired, as were stone masons, cooks, and other vocations, but, as you wouldn't expect a merchant sailor to captain a vessel in combat, there were actual Templar Knights who also held these positions.

For instance one of these was a sailor by the name of Roger de Flor who at age 8 first sailed on a Templar ship. He entered the "Order" as a sailor eventually becoming captain of the Templar vessel "El Falco" (the Falcon), during the fall of Acre taking refuges to Cyprus.

The reason his name is remembered by history is that after being charged of robbery the Pope dismissed him from the "Order" and he turned to piracy (individual Templars, except for preceptors and masters were not to be noted).

Its interesting that anyone who understands the Order, which renamed in Portugal, became one of most renowned seafaring exploration entities in the world doesn't think members themselves were sailors.

Cheers, Loki

 

[ECS]

Did this name "remembered in history" come from Addison, Lord, or Read, or is it from David Hatcher Childress's "PIRATES AND THE LOST FLEET OF THE TEMPLARS" pseudohistory tome that references "research" by quasi- historian pulp writers Muir and Halpern?
At what Crusade battle fought entirely at sea was a Templar transport galley involved in actual combat with other vessels?

 

[ECS]

... Some sailors were indeed hired, as were stone masons, cooks, and other vocations, but, as you wouldn't expect a merchant sailor to captain a vessel in combat, there were actual Templar Knights who also held these positions.
For instance one of these was a sailor by the name of Roger de Flor who at age 8 first sailed on a Templar ship.
He entered the "Order" as a sailor eventually becoming captain of the Templar vessel "El Falco" (the Falcon), during the fall of Acre taking refuges to Cyprus.
The reason his name is remembered by history is that after being charged of robbery the Pope dismissed him from the "Order" and he turned to piracy (individual Templars, except for preceptors and masters were not to be noted)...

Roger de Flor never fought a sea battle as Captain of the Templar transport galley, "EL FALCO", named to honor his falconer German father.
After his fall from grace from the Templars and the Catholic church, and no longer a Templar de Flor became a mercenary to King Fredrick of Sicily and then to the Byzantines in their war with the Ottoman Turks.
After demanding pay for his mercenary army from Emperor Andronicus II in Constantinople, de Flor declared himself Caesar, bur was assassinated by Michael, the Emperors son, in 1305.
Loki, when you reference one by name, you need to present the entire facts, not just the parts that support your premise.

 

[SSR]

Bunk!

Cheers, Loki

When "bunk" is repeatable and demonstrable it enters the category we call scientifically supported assertions. Degraded coconut coir from marine environments always dates to an older date. The ball park figure one should use is 600-1000 years. That allows you all sorts of possibilities if you just disregard it. You appear to be the type to want to exploit this and drive home a message that a reported protocol has 95% confidence to support you. It's the sort of thing that would get you laughed out of any academic institution.

 

[SSR]

Templars get included in this story because they serve one important literary purpose. They fill the need for a lineage of men in a crafted story that could have existed to pass on a tradition that is claimed to go back as far as Hiram of Tyre. ECS is absolutely right, but he is somewhat wrong it is the stuff of pulp, unless we agree to call the Bible "pulp". The "craft" of freemasonry introduces us to Hiram Abif, the so called architect of the Temple. Before the 17th century he doesn't have a name other than one of the three Hirams who was the son of a widow. The idea originates in the Bible, therefore in literature, at the time of the Phoenician King Hiram was said to have sent his builders to construct the Temple of Solomon. Everyone and their dog with a bit of understanding of Freemasonry appreciates the story was crafted.

Many have alleged that Francis Bacon wrote it. Part of the story is the crafting of a lineage going back in history through many cultures. Bacon would not have known anything about this,let's be clear on that. He' s devilishly creating an allegory if he is doing anything at all. That's in the prankster tradition of Hermes, which he does not hide being a part of. Those who refuse to dive into the allegory to understand it and spend their precious lives trying to defend the crafted stories are falling prey to a massive fool's errand that has forever been associated with this "craft". The OI mystery was given to us as part of a symbolic and anthropomorphic mystery of life, likely from Bacon as part of the esoteric mystery writings which he thought were pure trash, and it was put in place in NS by someone else well after it was created, imho.

The shafts and holes on OI represent bodily orifices in the story. People are actually now probing both the mouth and the arse hole of this mystery on that island. If they actually understood what they are up to it would be of immeasurable comedic value. "From the nose of Turks and the mouth of Tartars...by way of the spiral tunnel in your cochlea into the place were Bacon rests (the mind)". The duality at the other end is for you to ponder. A life giving passageway that chokes off all but the brave that floods and a dark passageway that closes in on itself where you are warned you might sink to over your neck in mud if you go trying to probe that way, lol. It's pure gold!!! It's a wonderful story, actually. It's part of a Shakespearean comedy that was to be given as the complementary to Macbeth's tragedy, but it apparently never got published because it was far too obscene. You' ll find allusions to it in Macbeth, though. The anthropomorphic allegory gets used later by a few other authors who caught on. The most prominent of them was Lewis Carroll.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I like your first paragraph. Can't really disagree with the other two, but I like the first.

The narrative is the thing. Sure, Henry the Navigator benefitted from the knowledge of the Templars. He was a sharp cookie and benefitted from EVERY SCRAP AND TIDBIT he could get his hands on. Never explored, but collected the information available. He was a top-notch data miner. And had the wealth to put it to use. Portugal "discovered" and held a great deal of territory at one point. Portuguese is still the sixth most common language on Earth(!). Pretty impressive when you look at the relative size of Portugal (about the size of Indiana). But there weren't enough Portuguese to hold what they had taken and they petered out.

I guess even Catholics sometimes can't breed fast enough. And the Templars that fell back to Portugal . . . well, they were celibate.

 

[ECS]

...
The Templar historian Charles Addison claims they had, galleys, galliots, and other vessels in the order on pg.156 of his "History of the Knights Templar.
What type of ship do you suppose a "galliot or other vessel would be?

Would these, short range merchant vessels, be part of the fleet mentioned by Templar historian, Evelyn Lord, in this statement
"Their main fleet was in La Rochelle, and it was this fleet, berthed away from the theatre of war, that was part of the maritime network linking the order in the British Isles, with the continent"?...

The small galiot galley boat propelled by oars and single sail did come into use until the 16th century.
Addison was referencing the galiote, a small French flat bottom river barge used for transporting wine, of which the Templars were involved at the La Rochelle.
As for the above Evelyn Lord quote, she mentions "fleet" linking the order to the British Isles which if reference to their wine trade business.
Neither Addison or Lord are mentioning warships in these quotes, but the mostly hired chartered fleet of short range merchant vessels that were "safely" berthed away from the theatre of war.
If there were warships at La Rochelle, why were these vessels not deployed in the "theatre of war"?

 

[lokiblossom]

Roger de Flor never fought a sea battle as Captain of the Templar transport galley, "EL FALCO", named to honor his falconer German father.
After his fall from grace from the Templars and the Catholic church, and no longer a Templar de Flor became a mercenary to King Fredrick of Sicily and then to the Byzantines in their war with the Ottoman Turks.
After demanding pay for his mercenary army from Emperor Andronicus II in Constantinople, de Flor declared himself Caesar, bur was assassinated by Michael, the Emperors son, in 1305.
Loki, when you reference one by name, you need to present the entire facts, not just the parts that support your premise.

You claimed no members of the Order were actually sailors and I named one, explaining that Templars were not to be specifically noted but because de Flor had a generally bad reputation in the Order and after, his name was mentioned to history.

The fact is that no merchant seaman would have captained a Templar vessel into a battle. Your so-called merchant sailors would have been stationed in ports like Marseille from where they took pilgrims to Palestine or La Rochelle for the wine trade.

Sorry, that you lost another point in our long discussion/ argument. But please keep up your good work, it all helps.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

The small galiot galley boat propelled by oars and single sail did come into use until the 16th century.
Addison was referencing the galiote, a small French flat bottom river barge used for transporting wine, of which the Templars were involved at the La Rochelle.
As for the above Evelyn Lord quote, she mentions "fleet" linking the order to the British Isles which if reference to their wine trade business.
Neither Addison or Lord are mentioning warships in these quotes, but the mostly hired chartered fleet of short range merchant vessels that were "safely" berthed away from the theatre of war.
If there were warships at La Rochelle, why were these vessels not deployed in the "theatre of war"?

There would not have been warships at La Rochelle until the Grand Master arrived there in the Spring of 1307, because as Lord writes, this was the fleet that was away from the "theatre of war".

Addison was not referencing ships used in the wine trade. He was referring to the arming of these vessels in the Eastern Mediterranean to oppose Saracen military vessels in 1222. He used the terms Galley and Galliot as those were words he was familiar with, he also used the words "other vessels". So what exactly were these Galliot's and other vessels used in combat that Addison mentions?

The Templar story is very complicated and you mix up elements at will to try to make a point. You should relax and try to understand what they were about as their identity changed throughout the two centuries of their existence!

Why do you think it was impossible for a small group of Knights Templars to have visited Oak Island/ Nova Scotia in the 14th century?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Coconut coir in quantity used as dunnage material that dates to any time in the previous one thousand years is perfectly consistent with it being put there in 1850s if the sampled material is degraded and badly contaminated by the marine environment.

I should rephrase my answer to this from "bunk" to, "a ridiculous assumption".

From the urging of a friend who laughed at your statement!

Cheers, Loki

 

[DaveVanP]

Not Impossible.

Unlikely - with absolutely NO evidence that Templars, specifically visited Oak Island at any time.
What little, questionable evidence that exists, even IF its "age" is accepted as being 500-700 years old, would only indicate that "someone" brought it there.

Perhaps if YOU could PROVE how it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for anyone else to have done so, other than Templars, then perhaps your hypothesis could be taken more seriously. You have already told us that coconut coir was "widely used" by many, and that its use was common in the eastern Mediterranean - in fact, that was your argument to support that Templars used it to begin with..."Everybody in that region used it, so the Templars likely did, too."

The logic of "they could have, therefore they DID" is NOT a substantive conclusion.

 

[ECS]

...
The Templar story is very complicated and you mix up elements at will to try to make a point...

That is exactly what you do with the quotes of Addison, Lord, and Read that have nothing to do with a Templar voyage to Nova Scotia.
As with your claim about de Flor, his captained transport galley becomes a "warship".
Why don't you post the quotes of Addison, Lord, and Read that actually state the Templars had warships berthed at La Rochelle, the type of warships employed, and list all the famous Templar sea battles fought against the Saracens.
Nevertheless, none of these random facts and quotes that you constantly post have nothing to do with providing evidential support of a New World 14th century voyage of the Templars beyond your unbridled imagination.
If you had actually proof of such a voyage, you would not have to mix elements and quotes that are unrelated in a feeble attempt to point your speculations.

 

[SSR]

Loki is the prankster in Norse myth. Hermes was his predecessor. No one takes on that name who isn't aware of it. Make sure you aren't being punked into wasting your lives arguing with someone who's put you on a fool's errand. This is what these archetypal figures did for a living, so to speak.

 

[ECS]

...Addison was not referencing ships used in the wine trade.
He was referring to the arming of these vessels in the Eastern Mediterranean to oppose Saracen military vessels in 1222.
He used the terms Galley and Galliot as those were words he was familiar with, he also used the words "other vessels".
So what exactly were these Galliot's and other vessels used in combat that Addison mentions?...

Using the word" galliot" instead of "galiote" for a Templar vessel that did not exist until the 16th century because "those words he was familiar with" in his 1842 Victorian era influenced presentation of Templar history is not the only thing he got wrong.
That like you claiming that the Templars road into battle in Ford Mustangs because those are words of which you are familiar, Loki.
So please tell us, Loki, how these flat bottom wine transport barges and "other vessel" were fitted out as warships, and what sea battles they engaged in an actual sea battle with the Saracens.

 

[lokiblossom]

That is exactly what you do with the quotes of Addison, Lord, and Read that have nothing to do with a Templar voyage to Nova Scotia.
As with your claim about de Flor, his captained transport galley becomes a "warship".
Why don't you post the quotes of Addison, Lord, and Read that actually state the Templars had warships berthed at La Rochelle, the type of warships employed, and list all the famous Templar sea battles fought against the Saracens.
Nevertheless, none of these random facts and quotes that you constantly post have nothing to do with providing evidential support of a New World 14th century voyage of the Templars beyond your unbridled imagination.
If you had actually proof of such a voyage, you would not have to mix elements and quotes that are unrelated in a feeble attempt to point your speculations.

Do you believe that the Falcon was de Flor's only captained vessel? And why wouldn't a combat vessel be pressed into service as a transport during an evacuation (Dunkirk, comes to mind)?

The type of vessels that brought de Molay and his 60 Knights along with their retinue and treasure from Cyprus to La Rochelle seems to be lost to history. Perhaps a study of inquisition records could turn up something, what do you think?

Those unrelated quotes are only used to answer your many unrelated questions. Why would you want me to list all of the Templars sea battles, which were many btw?

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Using the word" galliot" instead of "galiote" for a Templar vessel that did not exist until the 16th century because "those words he was familiar with" in his 1842 Victorian era influenced presentation of Templar history is not the only thing he got wrong.
That like you claiming that the Templars road into battle in Ford Mustangs because those are words of which you are familiar, Loki.
So please tell us, Loki, how these flat bottom wine transport barges and "other vessel" were fitted out as warships, and what sea battles they engaged in an actual sea battle with the Saracens.

What else did Addison get wrong, please enlighten me on the text of one of the most accepted Templar historians? He does go into great detail on Templar assets, specifically those related to his England.

And no, I don't think they went into battle with Ford Mustangs. The first Mustang was built in 1964, while we are actually discussing events that took place in the 13th Century. Btw, I actually saw the first Mustang prototype, a two seat vehicle called Taurus, in Detroit in 1961.

Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Not Impossible

Perhaps if YOU could PROVE how it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for anyone else to have done so, other than Templars, then perhaps your hypothesis could be taken more seriously. You have already told us that coconut coir was "widely used" by many, and that its use was common in the eastern Mediterranean - in fact, that was your argument to support that Templars used it to begin with..."Everybody in that region used it, so the Templars likely did, too."

The logic of "they could have, therefore they DID" is NOT a substantive conclusion.

Not impossible for anyone else, but extremely unlikely. Coconut coir was not widely used, by many, only widely used by peoples of the Eastern Mediterranean during that period. It was produced in India and introduced to the area through overland trading with Arab merchants. Hemp rope was a better product for vessels and used in Europe as well as vessels transporting materials and personal back and forth from there to the crusader states. But the vessels actually based in the Eastern Mediterranean would have used "coir" for lines and riggings and the Templar vessels were based in the Eastern Mediterranean for almost 200 years (they didn't start out with a navy).

During the proper time period the Templars left the Eastern Mediterranean and sailed to France, certainly with coir ropes, riggings, sleeping mats and any other use possible for the material. in September of 1307 all of their vessels, which were many disappeared.

During the same period there is no other organization's vessels that fit the bill so to speak. If they were not running from the law anybody else would have recorded such a voyage, such as the Portuguese did when they began their age of exploration several years later.

Cheers, Loki