Amona
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That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish
Odyssey Marine Article...
- Thread starter jeff k
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That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish
- Thread starter
- #82
Amona... Read this post, and then tell me the Spanish deserve one single coin.
Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513
This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas. He was a missionary and conquistador. He took part in the conquest of Cuba. These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed. There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land. Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures. Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.
The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties. They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women. They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field. They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke. They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs. Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water. They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.
One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills. The cried out pitifully. This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep. He commanded that they be strangled. The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead.
I have seen all these things and others infinite. Most tried to flee. They tried to hide in the mountains. They tried to flee from these men. Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind. These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight.
AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.
One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer! Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls. I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.
In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines.
Atrocities of the Spanish Conquistadors in the West Indies c. 1513
This account is from Bartolome de Las Casas. He was a missionary and conquistador. He took part in the conquest of Cuba. These accounts happened after this and one has to believe he was very troubled by what he witnessed. There is no doubt about it; the Spanish were cruel in the conquest for gold and land. Events like these listed below did nothing to help relations between the vastly different cultures. Instead it was a major reason why the Taino and Arawak peoples became extinct.
The Spaniards with their horses, their spears and lances, began to commit murders and other strange cruelties. They entered into towns and villages, sparing neither children nor old men and women. They ripped their bellies and cut them to pieces as if they had been slaughtering lambs in a field. They made bets with each other over who could thrust a sword into the middle of a man or who could cut off his head with one stroke. They took little ones by their heels and crushed their heads against the cliffs. Others they threw into the rivers laughing and mocking them as they tumbled into the water. They put everyone they met to the edge of the sword.
One time I saw four or five important native nobles roasted and broiled upon makeshift grills. The cried out pitifully. This thing troubled our Captain that he could not sleep. He commanded that they be strangled. The Sergeant (I know him and his friends from Seville) would not strangle them but put bullets into their mouths instead.
I have seen all these things and others infinite. Most tried to flee. They tried to hide in the mountains. They tried to flee from these men. Men who were empty of all pity, behaving like savage beasts. They are nothing more than slaughterers and enemies of mankind. These evil men had even taught their hounds, fierce dogs, to tear natives to pieces at first sight.
AND, when, although rare, the Indians put to death some Spaniards upon good right and law of justice; the Spaniards made an agreement that for every one Spaniard killed they had to slay one hundred Indians.
One time the Indians came to meet us and receive us with food and good cheer! Instead, the devil, which had put himself in the Spaniards, put them all to the edge of the sword in my presence, without any cause whatsoever, more than three thousand souls. I saw there such great cruelties, that never any man living either have or shall see the like.
In three or four months (myself being present) there died more than six thousand children, which the Spanish had sent into the Gold mines.
- Thread starter
- #83
Don... I've always felt it was the Mercedes, but Odyssey will be able to show the Court that she was registered as a mail ship and carried passengers. She also carried merchant money, and that is not immune according to UNCLOS.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Jeff agreed, her only basic defense. But what if Spain replies with "she was a chartered vessel under the Spanish Crown and hence a ship of her royal Naval forces at the time"?
In WW-2 this was often done with different types of Naval vessels and Aircraft. In The case of Naval Gunners on sunken liberty ships, it has been claimed that they are also war Graves and so exempt from salvage, sovereign rights still remain with the US Gov't.
Hmmmm
Don Jose de La Mancha
In WW-2 this was often done with different types of Naval vessels and Aircraft. In The case of Naval Gunners on sunken liberty ships, it has been claimed that they are also war Graves and so exempt from salvage, sovereign rights still remain with the US Gov't.
Hmmmm
Don Jose de La Mancha
- Thread starter
- #85
Don... Sovereign immunity only applies to warships that have to fulfill very specific criteria according to the Law of the Sea Convention, and they must be exclusively on a non-commercial service. In addition, virtually all Spanish "Treasure Ships" coming from the New World during the Colonial era (including the Mercedes) were mostly carrying money owned by merchants - not by the King, which would make it pretty obvious that they were not "exclusively on a non-commercial mission." Besides, even salvors of sovereign immune shipwrecks are still able to claim salvage awards.
Salvor6
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Don, not even Liberty Ships are exempt from salvage. The American liberty ship John Berry was sunk off the coast of Oman by a torpedo in 1944. Just recently salvors recovered 3 million silver Saudi ryals from the wreck. Salvage operations are going on right now on other Spanish warships in Ecuador and Florida.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Thank you Gentlemen, I learned something new today. Howeve, I am sure that Spain has a few nasty tricks up her sleeve regarding this classification since she is well aware of this, which I apparently wasn't, and is ready to toss her hat in the ring and go for broke., no holds barred.
Frankly, I hope she loses.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Frankly, I hope she loses.
Don Jose de La Mancha
- Thread starter
- #88
Don... According to Graham Moore's letter to Cornwallis the Mercedes carried 590,000 silver pesos for the merchants, and 221,000 for the king. For arguments sake lets assume this is an accurate account, and that Odyssey recovered exactly 500,000 silver coins. If I were the judge, here's how I would settle this. First, Odyssey gets 100% of the gold coins and jewelry, because they belonged to the merchants and passengers, not the king. There was a shipment of 811,000 silver coins in total, of which 73% belonged to the merchants and 27% belonged to the king. Therefore, Spain could have a claim on 27% of the 500,000 coins recovered, or 135,000 coins. I would then award Odyssey an 80% salvage fee, which would leave Spain with 27,000 coins. I use the 80% figure, because that's what is awarded to the salvors by Florida. This seems like a fair split to me, and in accordance with the Law of the Sea Convention.
P.S. Graham Moore was the commander of the British ships that engaged the four Spanish frigates.
P.S. Graham Moore was the commander of the British ships that engaged the four Spanish frigates.
Amona
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Jeff
You're right, according with that statement, the Spaniards don't deserve any coins but you can't use that argument as justification to Odyssey own the $500M. If there is a party that can legitimately claim ownership over those $500M are the Indians(Tainos or Incas) but they won't, so somebody has to do it.
Amona
![:-\](https://www.treasurenet.com/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Good Morning Amona: you posted -->
If there is a party that can legitimately claim ownership over those $500M are the Indians(Tainos or Incas) but they won't, so somebody has to do it.
~~~~~~~~~~
Agreed, besides, unless they go as a group, they will never win, since they cannot prove that the gold / Silver used in THOSE coins came from their particular lands. Only as a massive, class action, covering the Americas could they hope to win.
Maybe we can represent them? hehehe
***************************************************************************************
Jeff, you posted -->
That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HI , some time I will have to tell you of spending Christmas Eve, 1946 in a Chinese "Happy house" on the docks in Tsingtao, lowest of the low, teaching the poor, old, wornout gal, basic written Chinese heheh.
NO! being a pure saint, I did not partake of the wares, sheesh, not even scuba diver or amona would have, hmm, however, I am not sure of either YOU nor Mariner ? (sailors you know)
It was through necessity, there was no other place to sleep, too many refugees and the temp was below freezing..
Don Jose de La Mancha the untarnished Saint
If there is a party that can legitimately claim ownership over those $500M are the Indians(Tainos or Incas) but they won't, so somebody has to do it.
~~~~~~~~~~
Agreed, besides, unless they go as a group, they will never win, since they cannot prove that the gold / Silver used in THOSE coins came from their particular lands. Only as a massive, class action, covering the Americas could they hope to win.
Maybe we can represent them? hehehe
***************************************************************************************
Jeff, you posted -->
That's benefit to know two language English-Spanish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HI , some time I will have to tell you of spending Christmas Eve, 1946 in a Chinese "Happy house" on the docks in Tsingtao, lowest of the low, teaching the poor, old, wornout gal, basic written Chinese heheh.
NO! being a pure saint, I did not partake of the wares, sheesh, not even scuba diver or amona would have, hmm, however, I am not sure of either YOU nor Mariner ? (sailors you know)
It was through necessity, there was no other place to sleep, too many refugees and the temp was below freezing..
Don Jose de La Mancha the untarnished Saint
Amona
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Hi everybody
The issue I'd seen since Odyssey found those coins is the subject of "Spaniard committed atrocities" and tha's it is completely true because I was born in Puerto Rico and I know more than many people here in this forum about that fact, "BUT" nobody here shouldn't use that argument as "excuse" or" "fundament" to justify the Odyssey's action, because many people, during 1700 to 1850 killed Indian in order to remove them from theirs territories and send them to many reservation to establish many state of the union.
Amona
The issue I'd seen since Odyssey found those coins is the subject of "Spaniard committed atrocities" and tha's it is completely true because I was born in Puerto Rico and I know more than many people here in this forum about that fact, "BUT" nobody here shouldn't use that argument as "excuse" or" "fundament" to justify the Odyssey's action, because many people, during 1700 to 1850 killed Indian in order to remove them from theirs territories and send them to many reservation to establish many state of the union.
Amona
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I say it belongs to the people that went out and found it. nobody stopped spain/or any south american countries from going after it. in fact they never even tried. you throw a million dollars out in the trash and somebody finds it you lose.
if spain wants some of its lost treasure back it had better get busy. do you think john dillinger would get any of the loot he stole back in a court case ? I don't think so. if the wreck is in international waters tell spain to get lost.
if spain wants some of its lost treasure back it had better get busy. do you think john dillinger would get any of the loot he stole back in a court case ? I don't think so. if the wreck is in international waters tell spain to get lost.
Amona
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The fact is if I left my wallet in your house due I forgot it went I was visiting you,it doesn't mean you will own my wallet, because my wallet is in your property? The same fact with Spain's vessels, but I understand many people here (Jeff K, Wreckdiver1715,etc) when they say:
Why everytime an American underwater treasure hunter find an Spanish vessel, remove the gold, then Spain come to claim for the gold when Spain never-ever made the intention to salvage for those vessels?
That's question it should be asked by the judge inTampa during Odyssey's trial.
Amona
- Thread starter
- #95
Amona... The Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) says that a salvor is entitled to a salvage award. That's not quite the same as finding someone's wallet. As long as there's a commercial cargo involved then there is no immunity.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
buenas dias Amona: If I robbed a bank or held up someone, then, while running away at night , dropped the loot on your property, do I have a legal / moral right to sue you to get it back if you found it and I had no idea where it had fallen?
The loot, whether from a bank hold up or a country hold up, does not belong to the robber. This was upheld after WW-2. When the recovered loot from the AXIS powers was returned, where possible, to the countires of orign.
Don Jose de La Mancha
The loot, whether from a bank hold up or a country hold up, does not belong to the robber. This was upheld after WW-2. When the recovered loot from the AXIS powers was returned, where possible, to the countires of orign.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Amona
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Tayopa!! What kind World are you living? If you robbed anything in this world you don't have any right to claim over what you robbed,..Of course, If somebody that committed a felony basically loss many rights only to defend hiring a lawyer, but that case of the Spaniard during the colonial era " technically" the owned 3/4 of this continent of America between Oregon State to Argentina, chile since 1492 to mid 1850's using the force against people (Tainos, Mayas, Aztecas, Incas) in military disadvantage.
Sadly the ripped them out, they controlled them and finally they set a Spanish government like any military invasion i.g. Iraq invasion in 2003, Hispanic American war in 1898 when American troop "INVADED" Puerto Rico with "NO ANY ACT OF DEMOCRACY" so, like I said before, IF THERE SOMEBODY THAT COULD CLAIM ANY COINS FROM SPAIN THOSE PEOPLE ARE THE TAINOS, AZTECAS, INCAS AND MAYA, NOBODY ELSE.
Amona
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Morning Amona hmm k, no disagreement between us, so Spain has no actual legal right to them if the Doctrines / Laws of WW-2 are applied. In which case they are open for 100 5alvage rights .
Don Jose de La Mancha
Don Jose de La Mancha
Amona
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Well Tayopa
I don't know about maritame laws in wreck salvages.
Amona
I don't know about maritame laws in wreck salvages.
Amona
Amona,
You mention the Aztecs in your list of people who have the right to materials taken by Spain, but the Aztecs had done exactly what Spain did when they invaded and conquered Mexico a few centuries before Cortes arrived, and they treated the indigenous Mexicans far more cruelly than Spain treated them. The Aztecs carried out human sacrices by the thousands, ripping the heart out of their victims while they were still alive. Spanish accounts suggest that they sacriced as many as 60,000 people in this way in a single day.
This is why Cortes found it so easy to recruit as allies the Mexican nations that the Aztecs had subjugated and treated so badly. Thus the Aztecs by their cruelty contributed to their own downfall.
Please don't suggest that Montezuma and his people had any moral right to the treasures they accumulated as a result of their oppressive conquest of Mexico, and then castigate Spain for taking it off them.
Mariner
I
You mention the Aztecs in your list of people who have the right to materials taken by Spain, but the Aztecs had done exactly what Spain did when they invaded and conquered Mexico a few centuries before Cortes arrived, and they treated the indigenous Mexicans far more cruelly than Spain treated them. The Aztecs carried out human sacrices by the thousands, ripping the heart out of their victims while they were still alive. Spanish accounts suggest that they sacriced as many as 60,000 people in this way in a single day.
This is why Cortes found it so easy to recruit as allies the Mexican nations that the Aztecs had subjugated and treated so badly. Thus the Aztecs by their cruelty contributed to their own downfall.
Please don't suggest that Montezuma and his people had any moral right to the treasures they accumulated as a result of their oppressive conquest of Mexico, and then castigate Spain for taking it off them.
Mariner
I
