Odyssey Marine Article...

[Amona]

Scuba finder

My point right now is work for my family, pay my bills. Either way, Spain or odyssey won't pay my bills and debt. Something is very clear, IF MISS THE POINT IS BE IN YOUR SAME POINT OF VIEW, ABSOLUTLY I MISSED THE POINT OF THIS TOPIC, MYSELF AND HUNDRED OF PEOPLE FROM EUROPE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD BECAUSE ODYSSEY 'D SHOWN BE HIGH TECH PIRATES AND SPAIN ONLY FIGHT FOR THEIRS SHIPS.IF FOR US NATIONAL PARK IS A BRAKE THE LAW TO USE AN METAL DETECTOR IN ANY NATIONAL PARK AND YOU, MYSELF AND ANY AMERICAN HERE IN TREASURENET RESPECT THOSE RULES, WHY DON'T RESPECT OTHERS COUNTRIES RULES AND LAWS?

It's my point of view

Amona

 

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[jeff k]

El Pais Article...

http://tinyurl.com/5metxo

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Jeff G, all this shows is that it belongs to Spain and its people, not odyssey and what the English did !
nobody,s jumping up and down about the English,How do you feel after the Japanese attacked pearl harbour?
English Pirates,Odyssey are the new day pirates ! You may say that Spain took the wealth from America,s
but the English then took it from them and they Did'nt give it back, they used it to expand their colonies,
like the US till you kicked them out! Can anybody tell if the English returned any of the looted treasures
back to the People of Peru or Mexico ?
more and Beyond

 

[Salvor6]

Ossy you are way off. The English took NOTHING from the people of Mexico or Peru. Maybe you are descendant of one of the convicts that England sent to Australia. That could be why you harbor such a hatred of the British?

 

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scuba you missed my point !The English attacked the Spanish when not at War only for the treasure, which they knew was on board!
and killed 230 poor souls. Spain then declared war on England and joined the french,A bit like Pearl Harbour.
you say the English never took any thing from the People of Mexico or Peru, no they just waited for the Spanish to take it !
and then they would take it off the Spanish.Double standard's Mate ! They didn't give back, they just took it back to merry old England
Odyssey is only there to make money, they don't care how they do it! Maybe they should try Fort Knox.
And No I don't hate the English ,it's only some of the things they did !
Ossy

 

[piratediver]

From another SUB-ARCH rocket scientist!!

This is an interesting take on the loot. First we have applied 21st century morals, culture and law against the Spanish -hence making them accountable for Crimes Against Humanity on a retroactive basis. 200 years later, Greg Stemm, partner of Odyssey Marine Explorations, becomes a receiver of stolen goods, originally looted by the Spanish from the personal property of their victims. In turn the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation of Florida USA - the highly respected coin restoration and grading authority used exclusively by Odyssey for the certification of their underwater coin finds - becomes an accomplice in the commission of a crime. From there, various prestigious auction houses and rare coin dealerships become complicit in the sale of stolen goods, ending with the buyer, now vulnerable to the accusation of being in possession of stolen property. Now there is enough fodder in this to occupy several generations of lawyers, in countless numbers of lawsuits in an infinite number of international courtrooms for several centuries.
ADD to this UNESCO's Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage (UCH), and the unanimous condemnation of the professional underwater archaeological community, and we have just rewritten "From Here to Eternity".Considering the fact that jewellery and coins have been melted into bullion, and recast into other pieces of jewellery or re-struck as new coins for eons, it is very likely there is a little bit of larceny in every gold or silver coin or piece of jewellery on the planet. As for now, it appears Odyssey has spirited away a cache of Gibraltar shipwrecked coins, now safely tucked away in some secure Floridian warehouse. I wonder if the silver coins will bear the same invented moniker which Stemm managed to convince the prestigious Numismatic Guaranty Corporation to use on the sea damaged coins from his last successful looting of the wreck of the Civil War era coastal steamer, S.S. Republic? Out of nowhere, numismatists were confronted by a strange, new condition-grade - the infamous Shipwreck Effect label, slapped upon the disappointing horde of American mid-19th century silver half dollars. What new name shall the clever marketing folks at Odyssey create for their latest haul of silver? Perhaps the Spanish Flu Effect grade. Whatever it is, it is bound to increase the collectable value of this horde of otherwise, saltwater-damaged coins. Based upon the famous P.T. Barnum adage that "there's a sucker born every minute"
I'm sure these
damaged coins will end in the hands of some novice collector, sure that with time his wildly over-priced coin will appreciate in value. And we're just getting started. With the ever-increasing sophistication of underwater technologies, the numismatic community will be swamped with the lost bounty of the abyss. For collectors of gold coins, it should stimulate a whole new era in coin-collecting. With the rare exception of the discovery of a gold coin or two being found in a basement, attic or ancient drawer, the availability of new specimens of certain vintage gold coins has dried up.
Now the oceans and seas of the world offer a vast potential new source. But with it will also come a huge quantity of damaged silver coinage. Perhaps the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation can simply create a new collector's niche called "Seasick Coins". Until then, to the seasoned coin-collector only two measurements determine the value of any coin. Its rarity and its condition. Now, sophisticated salvagers are trying to add provenance to that value measurement. To the purist, all coins have but one provenance - the Mint at which they were struck. That's it. Where it was found makes no difference to anyone but the salvager who spent $2 million recovering it. He wants to pass that charge along to the collector. Considering the price of gold today, plus the relative rarity of all gold coins, there's profit enough without gouging the collector for finding it. Silver coins present a bigger problem. Seldom are they not damaged by a saltwater grave. That's where you'll see the salvager really try to compensate for the damage by spinning a grand tale of the mighty ship in which it sank. Otherwise, the coins are worth very little by the standard value measurements. A damaged specimen is usually worth very little unless only one or two others are known to exist. So beware the Seasick silver coin. As an investment, it is usually a foolish one. And that doesn't even begin to address the other huge issue of disturbing virgin wrecks yet to be examined by qualified underwater archaeologists. To the professional institutions and associations of underwater archaeology, I have but one suggestion. Remember the treasure salvagers' most important target consumer - the numismatist, and their institutions and associations. An educated consumer makes wiser decisions.


Pirate Diver

 

[jeff k]

Pirate Diver... Do you have a link to that tripe?

First of all, the silver in these coins was not stolen from anybody. It came from Spanish mines in Spanish colonies. The ship sank in 1804, long after the Spanish conquests in the 16th century. So much for the authors knowledge of history. Second, Odyssey will do good archaeology, and probably better than the author could ever do. They do have four archaeologists on the payroll.

 

[piratediver]

Jeff: try this: https://lists.asu.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=SUB-ARCH. If this doesn't work, just Google SUB-ARCH and go from there. That list is a window into the hard line UNESCO proponents who despise all types of commercial archaeology. There is a great thread now pitting Rex Cowan, an old time Brit salvager against all the INA types and their offspring, the same crowd that is trying to stop all treasure work in Florida. Very enlightening!


Pirate Diver

 

[Salvor6]

That drivel on SUB-ARCH was written by Timothy Laurence, an evil enemy of all treasure hunters. If he is so much against this business, why don't the academic archaeologists go out and excavate the historic shipwrecks before the THers get them?
Ossy, would you rather the wrecks remain untouched forever? No reason to hate Odyssey. They are just doing what is perfectly legal. I wish I had the means to go out there and salvage deepwater wreck sites.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

scuba, I do agree leaving the wrecks to rot is wrong,is how to control the pillage of these wrecks and there history
Jeff, here's a question for you! how would odyssey control the artifacts, would they keep them in a US museum,
or a Spanish museum, Who's History is it ? the Mercedes never came close to the US coast, it was only a few hundred miles
from home, yep Spain!
The court case verdict may open up a whole new world of pirates, remember the Russians they have the same technology as odyssey,
who's going to control all this, shouldn't the country who's ship or cargo have some say in all this or is it pirate law, full broadside
mate'ie and take what you can ! I could go on forever, sorry I've had my say!
ossy (Spaniard living in Australia )

 

[jeff k]

Sam... Odyssey will only sell the mass produced items like the 590,000 coins. They will keep the historical items for their traveling museum, and other museums. They already have loaned the New Orleans Mint and an Alabama museum items to display. Don't be surprised if you see artifacts in a Peru museum in the future, and yes, even a Spanish museum. Odyssey will bring more history to the surface than the rest of the archaeological community combined before they are finished.

 

[PDJ]

Also there is an important point that keeps getting overlooked - Spain didn't own the coins that the private investors had on board -- no museum needed there. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the amount of 'private investor coins', a very similar number to the amount of coins actually found? If the ship was sinking and the crew that were bailing her couldn't keep up w/ the weight -- maybe they tossed the private cargo over to save their lives. How many thousands of pounds in weight would that have been? Spains coins could have been deep down in the hull for safe keeping, underwater if the ship had taken to much. Private cargo on other ships according to things I've read was always less secure and higher up. Does anyone have any links or research to back that up? Thanks.

 

[Vox veritas]

Also there is an important point that keeps getting overlooked - Spain didn't own the coins that the private investors had on board -- no museum needed there. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the amount of 'private investor coins', a very similar number to the amount of coins actually found? If the ship was sinking and the crew that were bailing her couldn't keep up w/ the weight -- maybe they tossed the private cargo over to save their lives. How many thousands of pounds in weight would that have been? Spains coins could have been deep down in the hull for safe keeping, underwater if the ship had taken to much. Private cargo on other ships according to things I've read was always less secure and higher up. Does anyone have any links or research to back that up? Thanks.

If we continue arguing these theories, I ask: what happen with the loads of the Atocha, Cazador, Santa Margarita, etc. etc. that were of private and have they been recovered? This doesn't have solution and at the end will be of Adam and Eve .

 

[jeff k]

PDJ... When the Mercedes blew up she split in two, and the coins spilled out the hull. The ship actually floated away, and sank at another spot. I also believe that the King's money was segregated. Odyssey has recovered 590,000 silver pesos, and one historical document said there was a like amount of merchant money. I wouldn't be surprised if the King's money went down with the ship, and was probably stored in the stern.

 

[PDJ]

Vox, If the cargo doesn't belong to Spain -- they don't have a claim. Even if they do have a claim -- based on precedent, Odyssey is entitled to Salvage Rewards.

 

[bradyboy]

Treasure May Spark Mad Grab By Heirs

Aug 26, 2008 (Tampa Tribune - McClatchy-Tribune News Service via COMTEX) -- Aug. 26--TAMPA -- More people are sure to lay claim to what may be the largest treasure ever recovered from the sea, said Mark Gordon, president of Odyssey Marine Exploration, the company that found the loot more than a year ago.
In a wide-ranging interview with the Tribune about the treasure -- 17 tons of colonial-era coins worth an estimated $500 million -- Gordon said he thinks most of it belonged to private merchants. The company expects the descendants of those merchants to file legitimate claims at some point for the cargo in U.S. District Court in Tampa.

"There's lots of research available publicly that says more than two-thirds of the cargo was private merchant cargo," Gordon said. "We can tell you who put it on, and we can tell you who was expecting it."

Spain, however, is claiming ownership of the entire haul.

"We have always made the contention that there are multiple potential claimants in a case like this because it was transporting goods for a lot of different people," Gordon said. "Spain is saying it's solely theirs."

In court documents filed in federal court in Tampa, Spain claims the Spanish coins were on a 19th century Spanish warship known as the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, which was sunk by the British navy south of Portugal in 1804.

The Spanish government argues the coins on the Mercedes are immune from any claim or arrest in the United States and is demanding all of the treasure be returned to Spain.

Laws grant nations sovereign immunity over sunken warships in international waters. If the ship that carried the loot is deemed to be a Spanish warship, Odyssey could be ordered to return the coins to Spain.

But under international law, sovereign immunity applies only to military ships on a noncommercial mission. The Mercedes was converted into a freight vessel and was not on an exclusive military mission when it sank, Gordon said.

"If two-thirds of the cargo or more were private goods, it couldn't have been on an exclusively noncommercial mission," Gordon said.

Another major element in Spain's claim for the loot is missing: a shipwreck to examine.

There are no signs or evidence of a wreck at the site where the coins and artifacts were recovered, Gordon said.

"Sovereign immunity extends to a shipwreck, not to cargo not associated with a shipwreck," he said. "That's an important point that everyone keeps missing. There is no shipwreck there. That's why we feel pretty good about our case."

Odyssey executives, after being ordered by the court to provide their best hypothesis regarding the identity of the ship, say the loot most likely was the cargo of the Mercedes, the Spanish warship.

"Circumstantially, when you look at the coin dates and type and the amount, this cargo could have come from that ship," Gordon said.

James Goold, a lawyer representing the Spanish government, said there is no question that the coins recovered by Odyssey were aboard the Mercedes in a time of war. The Spanish government came to that conclusion after examining photos of the seabed where the coins were found, Goold said.

"What we know is that this ship was a Spanish navy frigate on a military mission that exploded and sank in an attack in 1804," Goold said. "More than 250 Spanish sailors died on it. The photographs of what's on the seabed tell the story."

Last week, Peru said it might file a formal claim for the coins recovered by Odyssey if it determines the coins originated in Peru. The coins were made from Peruvian metals and were minted in Lima.

The coins and artifacts are being held at a facility in Central Florida, Gordon said. He declined to be specific, citing security concerns.

"None of the cargo that's been recovered is actually in Tampa, but it's within the jurisdiction of the court," he said.

No matter how many legitimate claims are made, Odyssey will be awarded the majority of the loot, Gordon said. Under international law, awards of undersea finds are measured under a concept that benefits the finder, Gordon said.

"The people who lost the property aren't going to get a high score," he said. "I don't think they're going to be able to demonstrate that they've made a lot of effort and gone to great expense and risk to look for it."

Despite the historic find, Odyssey has lost more than $12 million during the first half of 2008. The company won't be able to realize any profit from its discovery until ownership rights are resolved by the court.

But the publicly held company has plenty of cash to fund its operations, thanks to investments of about $30 million by investment companies such as Strata Capital Management and Fortress Investment Group.

"When you look at who's investing, it's smart people investing again and again," Gordon said.

Shares of Odyssey fell 13 cents Monday to close at $4.66 on the American Stock Exchange. Shares are down 24 percent this year.

Reporter Russell Ray can be reached at (813) 259-7870 or [email protected].

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

PDJ you make me laugh the Mercedes didn't spring a leak and they started bailing water out ! and yea sure they would go down in the lower
decks carry the gold and silver just to lighten the load, Did somebody forget the English gun fleet, yea ,war ships the 100 gun type letting fly !
Jeff how do know the Kings share was in the stern ? I get the message! you don't want Spain to win the case, who you kidding.
Everybody's forgeting, the merchants where all Spanish and there's a list ! I will have to make some inquires, one of my ancestors could own some of
the cargo, some of the names match.The artifacts belong in a Spanish and Peruvian museum its there history.
For all you guys out around the Florida coast, stay safe !
Ossy

 

[Vox veritas]

The Mercedes transported:

171 remittances of money of private
213,998 pesos of royal treasure
144.163 pesos of the crew
51 pesos of Diego Alvear
(AGI, Lima 1535)

In gold it took 5,809 pesos besides some 10,000 pounds of manufactured silver (#48 of the register)
All embarked items was revised by the royal customs of the Callao (Lima)

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Vox great info, Did you get this from the archive"s of Seville

 

[jeff k]

From Capt. Graham Moore's letter to Cornwallis.