opinions on hunting foreclosed homes

[Jesse James]

I would love to get some feedback on hunting foreclosed homes. Has anyone done this without permission since they're basically corporate owned at this point?

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

And Kemper, you say: "...Now someone is saying they are going to call HUD and confirm I was trespassing yet they are not seeking any proof of that are not stating they intend to show any." You've got to remember, that in most people's mind's eyes, if they can find someone in authority, that says "you can't do that", then in their mind's eyes, that IS authoritative law. And at first blush, that does appear to be bullet-proof, doesn't it? Afterall, you can't argue with an answer straight from some HUD lawyer/legal-beaver, CAN YOU ? haha

All I can say to this is, that if we take that test of things out to its logical conclusion, then so too are we all in a big heap of trouble, everywhere we hunt. I bet there's not a speck of public land that nugs-bunny hunts, that I too couldn't find someone in a position of authority, that would tell him he can't do that. Afterall, he's "digging up" the parks, right? He's taking things, removing, harvesting, collecting, altering, disturbing, defacing, etc.... right? And then I just pepper the question to the authority with key phrases like "holes", "liability", "indian bone", "cultural heritage", and I bet I can find a "no" anywhere ANY of us hunts.

But again, I'm saying this to argue the point that HUD vacant yards are ok. I'm just sayin' .....

HUD like other agencies of the Federal Government have a no trespassing policy on most vacant properties. One will not have to play phone tag or search to confirm this.

Kemper wants to see it in writing, the easiest way to provide that would be to contact HUD and ask for copies of their policies on trespassing.

As it stands there is nothing in writing stating one cannot metal detect HUD properties. There is however many common laws the average everyday person knows without taking a course in property law.

HUD has been sued numerous times over their trespassing policies, and according to Kemper these foreclosed homes qualify as "public housing".

Public housing has a very strict no trespass policy to combat drug sales and criminal activity.

It's not about searching until one finds somebody to say no, it's common knowledge. Kemper wants a copy as proof so why no oblige?

I don't hunt vacant lots without permission, yeah it's a bummer but the courts around here don't go for word play and semantics. Dig up a yard and remove a piece of tin foil, that is criminal trespass and theft even if it's not posted. It's one's responsibility to obtain permission, although it's not expressly forbidden it's also not allowed.

Abandoned property however is a different story. Public common property, places that have always been historically open to the public still are regulated. Many parks and other sites are off limits to metal detecting, other areas my require obtaining a permit.

I know what Kemper is up too, he posted controversial statements to cause a debate. I'm waiting on the "I never fill in my holes" or "Digging up burial mounds" threads.

HUD does not enforce a no metal detecting policy but they do enforce a no trespass policy and Government owned property is not the same as public property. One is an asset the latter is common property.

 

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[Nugs Bunny]

Certainly he would not tell someone I were digging in a lot. Where would he have any proof of that? A Rat would be one thing and a lying Rat would be something else. I have not seen evidence of either.

How would asking for a copy of HUD's no trespass policy make me a rat? There is no need to inform them of any wrongdoing, all I need is a copy of their policy that states HUD properties are off limits to the general public.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Why call HUD? If you are so sure of yourself why not just look up the document and post it. It may be possible that you could find one. If you find one look at what I presented and compare it to that and show where I trespassed if you think I did. Try to do it without adding any details as to circumstances that were not present on the lot I referenced. This thread certainly has many to choose from if you decide to ignore facts and want to sensationalize the issue.

Ignore facts? Here are the facts...

You declare HUD homes are public housing, public housing has a strict no trespass policy to prevent crime.
https://www.taxcredithousinginsider...pass-alabamas-housing-authorities-association
3C ? Keep Out: Ban Lists and Trespass Policies in Subsidized Housing | National Housing Law Project

You declare the yard exempt from the no trespassing sign. Although the sign clearly states "This Property" and under MO law property includes the land.

A person commits the crime of trespass in the first degree if he knowingly enters unlawfully or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property.

 

[lookindown]

HUD like other agencies of the Federal Government have a no trespassing policy on most vacant properties. One will not have to play phone tag or search to confirm this.

Kemper wants to see it in writing, the easiest way to provide that would be to contact HUD and ask for copies of their policies on trespassing.

As it stands there is nothing in writing stating one cannot metal detect HUD properties. There is however many common laws the average everyday person knows without taking a course in property law.

HUD has been sued numerous times over their trespassing policies, and according to Kemper these foreclosed homes qualify as "public housing".

Public housing has a very strict no trespass policy to combat drug sales and criminal activity.

It's not about searching until one finds somebody to say no, it's common knowledge. Kemper wants a copy as proof so why no oblige?

I don't hunt vacant lots without permission, yeah it's a bummer but the courts around here don't go for word play and semantics. Dig up a yard and remove a piece of tin foil, that is criminal trespass and theft even if it's not posted. It's one's responsibility to obtain permission, although it's not expressly forbidden it's also not allowed.

Abandoned property however is a different story. Public common property, places that have always been historically open to the public still are regulated. Many parks and other sites are off limits to metal detecting, other areas my require obtaining a permit.

I know what Kemper is up too, he posted controversial statements to cause a debate. I'm waiting on the "I never fill in my holes" or "Digging up burial mounds" threads.

HUD does not enforce a no metal detecting policy but they do enforce a no trespass policy and Government owned property is not the same as public property. One is an asset the latter is common property.

I don't think Kemper posted to cause a debate...I think he found a gray area that has caused a great debate.

 

[lookindown]

Ignore facts? Here are the facts...

You declare HUD homes are public housing, public housing has a strict no trespass policy to prevent crime.
https://www.taxcredithousinginsider...pass-alabamas-housing-authorities-association
3C ? Keep Out: Ban Lists and Trespass Policies in Subsidized Housing | National Housing Law Project

You declare the yard exempt from the no trespassing sign. Although the sign clearly states "This Property" and under MO law property includes the land.

Missouri law says that if property is fenced or has a no trespassing sign, you can be charged with trespass for being on property...same a Florida law.

 

[Budman231]

This may and probably is all fact. But the truth is the property is still Private and no one should trespass for any reason unless given explicit permission. If the "owner" can't be identified or communicated with, then you don't have a chance at gaining permission. Seems simple.

It's certainly not public property.

Banks don't "own" those properties until the deed is transferred into the banks name. This can take a year or more after the property is vacated. Additionally most banks are "servicing" the mortgage for Fanny Mae or Fanny Mac" or other such mortgage consolidators. Technically the bank couldn't legally give you permission to do anything. The bank is a steward holding the property for transfer and have responsibilities for maintaining and protecting the property which usually is minimal at best. These services are usually jobbed out to local real estate companies that eventually will get the listing. Even if the mortgagee signs an owners waiver rights to abandon the property, the deed is still in that persons name and is the legal owner till the deed is transferred. Basically the entity listed on the deed in fact is the legal owner at any given time. If the property has been vacated by the deed holder you could argue its been abandoned. It's easy enough to find the legal owners name of any property, it's public record.

 

[lookindown]

This law posted for Alabama by Nugs Bunny would have no bearing here in Missouri. I will post part of it here to show that in Alabama a person would not be trespassing unless they had a verbal or written warning,ignored it, and then returned.--"The no-trespass policy gives a housing authority in the state of Alabama the right to issue a verbal or written no-trespass warning for a specified amount of time to any non-resident who has no legal right to be on the authority’s property, or is not an invited guest of a resident." Of course they only have the right to issue this to someone who has no legal right to be on the property. That legal right may or may not include a metal detectorist as that would have to be determined by researching other documents and finding a restriction that would apply to a detectorist. There may be one.

This link provided in the same post is in reference to a "roundtable discussion" and has no legal bearing in regards to any property--http://www.nhlp.org/node/1709 This latter link is where I was directed when I punched up Nugs Bunny's link but is the same destination.

Yeah, that was dealing with projects where people are living...not unoccupied or abandoned house.

 

[TheSleeper]

OK first off, I am neither condemning nor condoning anyone's actions. We are all adults, responsible for our own actions, with that said here is one aspect that no one has brought up.

HUD is a federal agency, hence as such any and all property owned by HUD is in fact federal property, as such according to the deed of the property includes all footage of property and dwelling contained and stated upon the original deed of the property.

Since it is federal property the laws pertaining to treasure hunting/metal detecting on any federal property, no matter which state it resides in is the same.

And we all know that federal property is strictly off limits to metal detecting!

Now does this stop people from doing it, no. Remember the tales of ghost, hunting the federal parks in Gettysburg with night vision goggles on, they got caught.

So do what you desire, but if you get caught don't come here complaining.

We all know the rules, do I like them, heck no, heck I would love to hunt Gettysburg or any other federal land, but "I KNOW" what would happen if I did and got caught.


SO gentleman, "PLEASE" let us agree that we disagree on this one, it is not worth ripping this forum apart over.

 

[BC1969]

Calling folks sissy's is lame, remind me to prank call you at 3:30am for the next month straight lol..sissy ? Can't I be tommy or filbert or something..even Sasquatch heh.
I do see the point, you run a hard argument, almost as well as the master..Tanner

BC

 

[lookindown]

OK first off, I am neither condemning nor condoning anyone's actions. We are all adults, responsible for our own actions, with that said here is one aspect that no one has brought up.

HUD is a federal agency, hence as such any and all property owned by HUD is in fact federal property, as such according to the deed of the property includes all footage of property and dwelling contained and stated upon the original deed of the property.

Since it is federal property the laws pertaining to treasure hunting/metal detecting on any federal property, no matter which state it resides in is the same.

And we all know that federal property is strictly off limits to metal detecting!

Now does this stop people from doing it, no. Remember the tales of ghost, hunting the federal parks in Gettysburg with night vision goggles on, they got caught.

So do what you desire, but if you get caught don't come here complaining.

We all know the rules, do I like them, heck no, heck I would love to hunt Gettysburg or any other federal land, but "I KNOW" what would happen if I did and got caught.


SO gentleman, "PLEASE" let us agree that we disagree on this one, it is not worth ripping this forum apart over.

You may be right about federal land...federal land just means its owned by the government but I think there are laws that say you cant remove anything from government property...at least here in Florida I always thought government land was off limits for collecting anything...Im not sure but you brought up an interesting point.

 

[lookindown]

Calling folks sissy's is lame, remind me to prank call you at 3:30am for the next month straight lol..sissy ? Can't I be tommy or filbert or something..even Sasquatch heh.
I do see the point, you run a hard argument, almost as well as the master..Tanner

BC

Yeah, this has been a great discussion and it rages on.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... And we all know that federal property is strictly off limits to metal detecting!....

Sleeper, this is an old-wives tale. This may be true of "national park monuments", but no, not necessarily "all federal land/property". There are several forms of federal land that are either silent on the subject , or .... believe it or not, .... have express ALLOWANCES for md'ing. BLM is an example of that.

Not saying that, therefore, vacant HUD lawns are ok. Just saying that it's wrong to assume that just because something is fed, that it's therefore forbidden to md.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

nugs-bunny, I've written what you've added. Thanx for typing all that out. Doesn't leave much for the imagination in the pros & con's of this. I'll even grant you that it "carries the day" in the debate. C'mon Kemper, admit it. And let's just concede that perhaps, technically, you can not step foot off the sidewalk there "lest you be immediately arrested". Ok.

So then let's start a thread about whether or not md'rs can (or would admit to) using the "does anyone care" approach. To whether-or-not they will or won't detect. Can or can't, detect certain sites.

 

[TheSleeper]

Tom, point taken, but I have always considered the BLM as a sorta red headed stepchild, not really fed and not really state, sorta like an in between.


Tom, there are just so many rules and reg's that it would take mths to explore them all. I did that years ago, its frightening.
On some fed lands you can pan for gold, but no detector.
On some fed lands even a detector in the trunk of your vehicle (without batteries mind you) is warrant for impoundment/confiscation and prison time.

Its not cut and dried, there are so many gray areas that the feds can use against you its not funny.

National parks fall under the jurisdiction of the federal park system, hence off limits.

I read once that any navigationable waterway in the united states, was open to detecting with a metal detector. BUT, only in the water and only up to the mean low tide line. Now this could be confused as meaning any waterway adjacent to a national/federal park, but doing so, one would find themselves in a pinstriped suit.

Like I said the rules and regs are clouded with gray areas, and unless your a millionaire with some pricy and unlimited team of lawyer's on your side its best to err on the side of caution.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

HUD property is public property by definition-(owned collectively by the population of a state) Here is the source--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_property Public property
From Wikipedia,

Sorry but when you quoted Wikipedia pages back you lost the debate.

You have avoided and ignored a few important details.

That house was posted no trespassing, the sign clearly states "This property" under the Missouri Revised Code "property" includes real property.

There is no "written" restriction on metal detecting HUD owned property, however there is a written restriction on occupying said property. Considering one would have to "occupy" said property to metal detect, there is your written restriction. Indirect yet still applies according to the law.

View attachment 1093385

Section: 569.0140 Beginning January 1, 2017--Trespass in the first degree--penalty. RSMO 569.140
569.140. 1. A person commits the offense of trespass in the first degree if he or she knowingly enters unlawfully or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property.

2. A person does not commit the offense of trespass in the first degree by entering or remaining upon real property unless the real property is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or as to which notice against trespass is given by:
(1) Actual communication to the actor; or
(2) Posting in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders. 3. The offense of trespass in the first degree is a class B misdemeanor.

Section: 569.0150 Beginning January 1, 2017--Trespass in the second degree--penalty. RSMO 569.150
569.150. 1. A person commits trespass in the second degree if he or she enters unlawfully upon real property of another. This is an offense of absolute liability. 2. Trespass in the second degree is an infraction.

Legal buyers are not allowed to occupy the property until the sale is final but you contend this no trespass policy only applies to buyers and not the general public.

There is a distinct legal difference between "public property" "common property" "government property" and "government owned property" HUD property would fall under the latter.

Now lets consider a few possibilities.

1. A HUD inspector catches one in the act of digging a target, this would be considered vandalism. Unless you recover targets through osmosis one must dig a hole at some point.

2. Any prior theft or vandalism will be blamed on one if caught on the property. Perhaps somebody helped themselves to the appliances and copper, or maybe some kid dug up the yard.

Now let's apply your reasoning to Government property...

If there is no written law that disallows me I can legally do things on public property that are not against the law. If it not illegal.it is legal.

most, if not all places are absent of a " Metal Detecting is Okay Here" sign yet a lot of people detect those areas. If they detect those areas without that type sign and without a written restriction then I don't see their reasoning for not detecting a foreclosed property under the same circumstances.

There are no posted signs or any written restriction on metal detecting the lawn at the Missouri Governor's Mansion so it's legal and permitted. Friends of the Missouri Governor's Mansion - We preserve its history and historical treasures of the Missouri Governor's Mansion for all Missourians to enjoy. : Friends of the Missouri Governor's Mansion

 

[TheSleeper]

You are claiming that we all know that federal property is off limits to metal detecting. I do not believe that to be true. Can you provide a document that shows your claim or is that just an opinion. ?

Well Kemper, tell ya what, go on Gettysburg national park, (federal park) and detect for some relics. When you get out of prison you can email me and admit that, " yep sleeper you were right."

 

[lookindown]

nugs-bunny, I've written what you've added. Thanx for typing all that out. Doesn't leave much for the imagination in the pros & con's of this. I'll even grant you that it "carries the day" in the debate. C'mon Kemper, admit it. And let's just concede that perhaps, technically, you can not step foot off the sidewalk there "lest you be immediately arrested". Ok.

So then let's start a thread about whether or not md'rs can (or would admit to) using the "does anyone care" approach. To whether-or-not they will or won't detect. Can or can't, detect certain sites.

Yep, lots of detectorist break laws but they say "no one really cares" to justify it...like laws that say no disturbing the ground in parks and laws that say you have to turn found items over to the police if they are worth over a certain amount...I think its fifty bucks in Florida...they say "aw, no one goes or cares about that silly law"...yet they like to come on here and stone people and act like they never do anything wrong because those silly laws they are breaking dont really count.

 

[Nugs Bunny]

Yeah, that was dealing with projects where people are living...not un occupied or abandoned house.

A HUD owned home is Public Housing according to Kemper, so Public Housing policies would apply under that reasoning.

Don't confuse 'government property' with 'public property.' Military bases and the White House are government property. No trespassing. HUD property isn't public. That's the way I see it.

HUD's Public Housing Program

WHAT IS PUBLIC HOUSING?
Public housing was established to provide decent and safe rental housing for eligible low-income families, the elderly, and persons with disabilities. Public housing comes in all sizes and types, from scattered single family houses to highrise apartments for elderly families. There are approximately 1.2 million households living in public housing units, managed by some 3,300 HAs. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) administers Federal aid to local housing agencies (HAs) that manage the housing for low-income residents at rents they can afford. HUD furnishes technical and professional assistance in planning, developing and managing these developments. HUD's Public Housing Program/U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)

As one can see... the story changes as need be! They are no longer low income public housing when it suits the argument.

Why would anyone expect to find valuables on low income housing lawns?

A lot of times these homes are bought by someone that secured a HUD ,FMHA, etc. loan. If they default the property is often in the hands of HUD. I've seen these properties to be over 100 years old.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Agency: National Parks, Monuments, Seashores, Forests, and Public Property
Website:
Law: Title 36 Parks, Forests, and PUBLIC PROPERTY <=====<

Website. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title36/36tab_02.tpl

PART 2—RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION

§ 2.1 Preservation of natural, cultural and archeological resources.

Website Section http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...iv8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.2.0.1.1&idno=36

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(1) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:
(iii) Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, cultural or archeological resources, or the parts thereof.
(iv) A mineral resource or cave formation or the parts thereof.
(3) Tossing, throwing or rolling rocks or other items inside caves or caverns, into valleys, canyons, or caverns, down hillsides or mountainsides, or into thermal features.
(5) Walking on, climbing, entering, ascending, descending, or traversing an archeological or cultural resource, monument, or statue, except in designated areas and under conditions established by the superintendent.
(6) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing a structure or its furnishing or fixtures, or other cultural or archeological resources.
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or sub bottom profiler.

This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.


MDHTalk is a great website for federal laws as well as state laws..
http://www.mdhtalk.org/articles/legal-to-detect/legal-to-detect.htm








Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Nugs Bunny]

He was bluffing. He's not gonna call. Cooler heads prevail.

Contact HUD: Missouri Contact HUD: Missouri

Calling will do little to prove anything, much better to email them so I can post it here.

So would you like it in writing that you cannot metal detect HUD property or are you ok with a statement one is not allowed on the property?

Clay Diggins told you they do arrest trespassers for detecting, the sign at the property states no trespassing and MO law clarifies "property" includes the land or lot.

But if you insist none of that applies to you, as you are a taxpayer and HUD property is public, you most likely would not accept an E-mail from HUD's regional director.

The property is posted, the law states that includes the lot, can you prove otherwise? Can you provide a written statement that exempts you from the law?

It was fun while it lasted but the debate is over, posted property is off limits and standing in the yard is trespassing.