opinions on hunting foreclosed homes

[Jesse James]

I would love to get some feedback on hunting foreclosed homes. Has anyone done this without permission since they're basically corporate owned at this point?

 

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[Treasure_Hunter]

Your post has nothing to do with my comments in this thread. I only claim that i detected a HUD lot legally. Any other property or lot would have to be looked at on an individual basis.

1. Notice this is Federal Law.
2. Notice it includes PUBLIC PROPERTY own by Fed Gov.
3. Notice it includes Metal Detecting on Public Property
4. Notice HUD is part of Fed Government.
5. Notice one of the prohibited activities on Fed property is metal detecting...Point # ( 7 )

Agency: National Parks, Monuments, Seashores, Forests, and Public Property
Website:
Law: Title 36 Parks, Forests, and PUBLIC PROPERTY <=====<

Website. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title36/36tab_02.tpl

PART 2—RESOURCE PROTECTION, PUBLIC USE AND RECREATION

§ 2.1 Preservation of natural, cultural and archeological resources.

Website Section http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...iv8&view=text&node=36:1.0.1.1.2.0.1.1&idno=36

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(1) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing from its natural state:
(iii) Nonfossilized and fossilized paleontological specimens, cultural or archeological resources, or the parts thereof.
(iv) A mineral resource or cave formation or the parts thereof.
(3) Tossing, throwing or rolling rocks or other items inside caves or caverns, into valleys, canyons, or caverns, down hillsides or mountainsides, or into thermal features.
(5) Walking on, climbing, entering, ascending, descending, or traversing an archeological or cultural resource, monument, or statue, except in designated areas and under conditions established by the superintendent.
(6) Possessing, destroying, injuring, defacing, removing, digging, or disturbing a structure or its furnishing or fixtures, or other cultural or archeological resources.
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or sub bottom profiler.

This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.


MDHTalk is a great website for federal laws as well as state laws..
http://www.mdhtalk.org/articles/legal-to-detect/legal-to-detect.htm

 

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[Jesse James]

Well Kemper, I didn't expect this much attention about my post. I've been silent most of the time throughout, reading all. You put up a hell of a fight. I can say that. I haven't even posted my opinions yet. I'm certain there will be some issue with someone if I did. My methods I'm certain, are questionable when it comes to MD'ing. I see it's challenges and try to overcome them in many ways. I'm sure now I would be crucified if I said I've hunted these homes...

 

[TheSleeper]

(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.

TY for posting that TH, at one time even having one in your possession was means for imprisonment.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.

TY for posting that TH, at one time even having one in your possession was means for imprisonment.

Might be good to remember if ever stopped in National Park, you can have it as long as broken down. TAKE THE BATTERIES OUT..



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[TheSleeper]

Well Kemper, I didn't expect this much attention about my post. I've been silent most of the time throughout, reading all. You put up a hell of a fight. I can say that. I haven't even posted my opinions yet. I'm certain there will be some issue with someone if I did. My methods I'm certain, are questionable when it comes to MD'ing. I see it's challenges and try to overcome them in many ways. I'm sure now I would be crucified if I said I've hunted these homes...

Not by me Jessie. I have no halo, been places, done things, but not going to post for others to think they can, only to then get arrested for doing it.

We each have to accept the responsibility for our actions, just don't advertise about them.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Jessie you would not be crucified, Back at start I stated it was still private property, kemper kept saying it was legal since it was public property owned by HUD and he was part owner. The entire debate has been because he said it is legal to hunt because it is public property owned by HUD.

My post above states in Fed law it is illegal to use metal detector on public land owned by Federal Government.



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Nugs Bunny]

I'll start first with this claim of yours--"Legal buyers are not allowed to occupy the property until the sale is final but you contend this no trespass policy only applies to buyers and not the general public." that is not anything I said. Please reference where you think that is from.

Here ya go!

With so many opinions already offered... I've decided to provide the facts instead

Selling HUD Homes Selling HUD Homes | www.hudhomenetwork.comBuyers may not enter a house without their broker/agent for any reason prior to closing... Occupying or working on a HUD home prior to the close will be treated as trespassing.

Will also add that your reference is clearly stated as for owner occupants, investment purchasers and buyers. It also states that it is reference to homes that are being viewed while listed for sale. The latter parts are listed as for buyers. While nothing in your reference prohibits metal detecting as I performed on a HUD home one should also take note that they would not be prohibited from detecting the lot while in the process of purchasing one according to the reference that is shown.

Property that is not posted other than a structure that sits on the lot of the property. I hope we are talking about the same circumstances here. I feel this property can legally be detected according to written data I have researched. If someone has some data that shows otherwise i welcome that along with their opinion.

If you read the entire code in context it's very clear. I would like to add ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the judicial system.

I did not knowingly enter unlawfully nor did I enter unlawfully.

A person commits the offense of trespass in the first degree if he or she remains unlawfully upon real property. Obviously since you took pictures you "knowingly" remained upon the real property.

Section: 569.0140 Beginning January 1, 2017--Trespass in the first degree--penalty. RSMO 569.140
569.140. 1. A person commits the offense of trespass in the first degree if he or she knowingly enters unlawfully or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property.

View attachment 1093385

What is REAL PROPERTY? definition of REAL PROPERTY (Black's Law Dictionary)

What is Real Property - A term that is applied to land and immovable property on land such as buildings.

As you can see there is no gray area, it's posted, the sign pertains to the building and the lot, you knowingly remained, that is trespassing. The laws in your State confirm this along with the legal definition of the words.

Now howz bout starting another thread to incite a debate... I'm thinking "Carrying a gun while detecting HUD homes is a great way to get outa filling in one's holes" thread would do the trick!

Just remember most public places that are off limits to detecting are that way because people abused the privilege.

 

[Jesse James]

I'm sure if the Native Americans still occupied this land, they would be digging a hole to take a **** in anywhere they pleased. Now that was true freedom.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

According to Federal law it is illegal to use metal detector on Fed property and HUD is federal agency making any property they have under their control federal property...



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... at one time even having one in your possession was means for imprisonment.

Sleeper, just curious: Have you ever heard (do you have any examples), of someone "being imprisoned" simply for having a detector in his possession, at a national park ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

According to Federal law it is illegal to use metal detector on Fed property and HUD is federal agency making any property they have under their control federal property......

TH'r, the citation you showed in #192, is for certain forms of fed. land/property. Not *all* federal land.

Not saying that this means HUD vacant yards are ok. But just saying don't make the mistake of saying all fed. land is a no-no.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

TH'r, the citation you showed in #192, is for certain forms of fed. land/property. Not *all* federal land.

Not saying that this means HUD vacant yards are ok. But just saying don't make the mistake of saying all fed. land is a no-no.

Tom if you read it will list what is allowed Kemper whole arguement has been HUD homes are public property and since he is part of public he is part owner. law specifically states Fed public property is off limits...

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

This entire post you claimed that HUD property was not public property. Now you furnish the following--"Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property " as basis for your position.

Your entire excuse for hunting HUD was it is public property and your part owner. Public property owned by Fed is off limits so are you now saying it isn't public property?...


Yes I was saying it is private property owned by HUD....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Kemper I really don't care if you hunt it or not, just don't tell new members it is okay to hunt it with out permission... It is Federal property, public or private....

 

[Nugs Bunny]

"The latter parts are listed as for buyers. While nothing in your reference prohibits metal detecting as I performed on a HUD home one should also take note that they would not be prohibited from detecting the lot while in the process of purchasing one according to the reference that is shown." I think you may reading this wrong.. Here is your statement to me--
"Legal buyers are not allowed to occupy the property until the sale is final but you contend this no trespass policy only applies to buyers and not the general public."
If we can clear this up i may comment further.

Like I have asked several times and you ignored, "If the legal buyer would be trespassing how would you not?"

Considering you fail to acknowledge "property" includes the land itself there is no point in explaining it further.

But here we go anyway...

The house was posted with a no trespassing notice. You contend because it was on the structure it only pertains to the structure. However as per MO law on trespassing the land is also considered part of the property.

So we have a posted house, the MO code that verifies it applies to the lot as well as the structure yet you still contend you were there legally. Sorry but it's not even a question of doubt, it's very clear you were trespassing as it's posted.

So if I post a no trespassing notice on the edge of my land it only pertains to the tree or post the sign is attached too?

If buyers are not allowed there how can you justify your presence? Because you are a tax payer? Or should we go back in circles again?

Face it if the buyers are not allowed there, it's posted and the law clarifies what is included in the property you have no leg to stand on, legally or otherwise.

One of two things, you wish to argue even if you have to make stuff up to keep it going or you clearly do not understand basic English... either way you are 100% wrong.

 

[TheSleeper]

Sleeper, just curious: Have you ever heard (do you have any examples), of someone "being imprisoned" simply for having a detector in his possession, at a national park ?

Tom do not quote me, it has been too long ago(late 90's I believe) on a different forum, person was in a fed park, for some reason they had to go through a check point, search, detector was found they were detained, questioned thoroughly finally they were released but detector was seized.

The old rule was no detectors period on federal properties, fed parks, national parks. The razing of Gettysburg had a lot to do with this, people were going out night detecting, at first the rangers were only finding the left dug holes, (NO they did not fill their holes) then the rangers finally caught them( I remember one of the rangers stated it looked like the surface of the moon filled with craters from all the digs, this was early 80's). Later the ghost appeared using night vision goggles razing the battlefields, they were caught and went to prison, you would have to look it up been to long ago for me to remember( seems circa mid 90's or so).

That is why I thanked TH for posting what he did, shows the feds have changed their ruling.

 

[TheSleeper]

Kemper, I'm not condemning you for what you did. What I am condemning you for is posting it was legal.
Too many new hunters come on this site to learn, key word learn, if one of those people read your post went out and got himself in trouble this hobby/sport/love of ours would then loose one person, plus they would come back stating well such and such told me I could.

I have been in this sport/hobby/actual job for close to 50 years, I have run across all of them, people that have hunted on grave sites, battle sites, you name it. But they knew what they were doing, hence it is up to us to make sure we do NOT lead a new hunter into a position that they could get themselves into trouble. Now with that said, if we inform others of an area, but state it is a gray area, meaning it could be legal, or it could be illegal, and they choose to go into that area of their own accord, then we have done our job, they choose, so hence they must face the outcome of their choice.

Sorry Kemper, condemning is too harsh a word for me to use against you. I apologize.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

The difference is city and county parks are public property.... Some state parks allow some hunting and man others allow non at all...



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Did you not read the law I posted, HUD is Federal agency.....



Posted From My $50 Tablet....




“A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
― James Madison
The Constitution of the United States of America

 

[Nugs Bunny]

One very important OVERLOOKED detail is that property is classified into many categories.


In an effort to keep things simple I won't try to explain them all.

There are three types of public property;

• Open Public Forum - streets, right of ways, areas historically open to the public.
• Limited Use - libraries, museums, forest, parks.
• Off Limits - offices, military bases, labs, test facilities.

Two types of Government Property;

• Government Owned Property - typically acquired through foreclosures, tax defaults, criminal seizures.
• Personal Property - desks, computers, vehicles.
• Federal Property - buildings, land and other real property acquired by the Federal Government.

HUD single dwelling homes have been acquired through foreclosure, they are "Government Owned Property" and as such may or may not be open to the public.

Kemper provided a picture of the typical "no trespassing notice" located on these HUD homes. HUD policy dictates NO UNAUTHORIZED individuals are allowed on the premises, even the legal buyer.

IS there a sign that states no metal detecting, is there a written enforcement banning such... no.

Does there need to be? It's clear unauthorized individuals are not allowed on the property which includes the lot. If it's posted it's off limits, if it's not and it's HUD still off limits. Many Government agencies own and sell homes, not just HUD.


A few of us are up here on our goody, goody soap boxes preaching the good life for good reason. People who do not follow regulations and laws ruin it for the rest of us. The fastest way to get restrictions put in place and areas made completely off limits is by people complaining.

Keep this in mind while your ducking behind sheds and garages Kemper, as you said yourself when you are on these properties, you hide if somebody is watching. You also said don't take a buddy because it attracts unwanted attention. That right there tells us all you know it's wrong yet you choose to do it anyway.

Perhaps metal detectorists can take a lesson from gold prospectors, a bad image and a few groups can strip away rights in a blink of an eye. Hopefully the Homeowners Association and old ladies like metal detectorists.