Pancho Villas Silver

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Interesting reading Joe, thanks for posting. I wonder if the map they speak of was a LDM map or if it was for something else.

 

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[Old Bookaroo]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

cactus jumper:

Thank you for those articles! I purchased a Lost Dutchman collection (books and pamphlets - no ore) a while ago and there were some DeGrazia items in it. I had not heard of this gentleman before - but then, I don't live in Arizona.

Karl von Mueller's excellent Encyclopedia of Buried Treasure Hunting defines the "last will & testament" as "A notice placed in the windshield of an automobile, or placed in a conspicious place, by prospectors, miners, explorers and THers before going into a dangerous area afoot, so that in the event of an accident the person, or party, can be found. The note tells who is going, where they are going, and when they expect to be back. The practice should always be followed when entering old mines & caves so that, in the event of a cave-in or fall, rescue will be considerably simplified."

KvonM didn't mention publishing in the newspaper - probably for good reason. I do not know any of the folks mentioned in these articles, but it really does not seem like a serious search or hunt. However, it could have been excellent publicity for an artist interested in selling paintings. I don't mean to sound cynical - but it looks like a publicity stunt to me.

We certainly do know that lost mine and treasure hunts in general, and the Superstition Mountain area in particular, does attract a wide variety of people...

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

de gazia had a number of years prospecting prior to his notice as an artist.

http://degrazia.org/Biography.aspx

http://www.infomine.com/minesite/minesite.asp?site=morenci

 

[Yellow Hammer]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Can someone post a time line?

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Bookaroo, although its not impossible that it could have been a "publicity stunt" my personal feeling is that publicity stunts are usually short lived affairs. Since the articles Joe posted are from 62 and I have others dated 67, I would guess he had a genuine interest in treasure hunting, at least in the supers. Of course I know nothing about the man so im just guessing. But it does appear as if he was genuinely interested.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Peerless67:

To their sorrow, many people have contacted the newspapers after they have made a nice find. In other cases, word has leaked to the press. Seldom has this accrued to the advantage of the finders.

Then there are those who contact the newspaper before setting out - either on rented horses or their own...I ask myself "Why?" How where those good people better off announcing to the Arizona Republic their plans and dreams?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Peerless67:

To their sorrow, many people have contacted the newspapers after they have made a nice find. In other cases, word has leaked to the press. Seldom has this accrued to the advantage of the finders.

Then there are those who contact the newspaper before setting out - either on rented horses or their own...I ask myself "Why?" How where those good people better off announcing to the Arizona Republic their plans and dreams?

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

Bookaroo, I get what you are saying, but those articles are from 62 and I have later ones showing he went in there searching for gold.
Besides his "publicity stunt" seems to have come at a much later date in the mid 70s.
Sad but true it appears he did burn those paintings. Which makes one wonder if indeed he did use a cave for storage of others.

PS. Joe I'l mail you the full article.

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Would be nice to get a look at these movies.


TED ONSCREEN. highly talented artist--Ted DeGrazia had another side, revealed in a string of short movies he made over several decades.
Now the DeGrazia Gallery in the Sun makes the most of the these fascinating vintage works with a summer film series.

This week's offerings are collectively titled DeGrazia in the Superstition Mountains. They feature "Elisha M. Reavis--Madman of the Superstitions," "The Lucky Buck Shaft," and "Superstition Mountains, Fiction and Fact."

Admission to the screenings and ongoing gallery exhibits is free. Gallery in the Sun is located at 6300 N. Swan Road. Due to the series' overwhelming popularity and the gallery's limited space, reservations are required.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Gary,

Thanks, once again, for the articles.

For anyone interested in some insight behind the public persona of Ted DeGragia, I highly recommend:

"DEGRAZIA: THE REST OF THE STORY" by Carol Locust. Carol was a Cherokee who met DeGrazia while teaching school on the reservation. They fell in love, eventually had a son and worked together on his art projects. She was "the other woman" right up to the day he died.

Carol rode into the mountains with him when he did that semi-public burning of some of his paintings. There are many stories surrounding his destruction/hiding of his paintings. I believe the "public" burning was to make people believe he destroyed most of his work, which was miles from the truth. DeGrazia was a very prolific artist.

A signed, first edition of Carol's book can be found for around $50. It's an interesting story.

I could easily write a book on the DeGrazia connection to the Stone Maps, Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars, and fold it all into Pancho Villa's stolen gold........which was also stolen from him. It would be believable but, none the less, a historical novel.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Joe, you are welcome . I will have to add the book to my list of "wanted books" which seems to grow daily

Thought I might post this article here as it refers to Villa, I'l post it in the Texas forum to incase someone would like to see iff there is/was any truth to the story. The article was from 1953

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Gary,

There is some truth to the Vasquez story. She was Pancho Villa's nurse, but it seems unlikely that she was a colonel. Not that there weren't female colonels in Villa's army, but that seems a high rank for a nurse in that society, and in that era.

I believe the female officers were actually front line combat veterans. They were advanced, in many cases, because they outfought the men. While they have been called Soldaderas', that is misleading. Soldaderas, I believe, means camp followers and these gals were a bit more than that.

I have read a book, at some time about these ladies, but don't know if it's something I have stored or if it belonged to someone else.

The number of stories that surround the revolution, Pancho Villa and treasure are all over the place.

Thanks again for another peek into that interesting history.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

cactus jumper:

Many years ago the book catalogue from General Electronic Detection, Belleflower, California, had a book about Pancho Villa's female soldiers. Please don't ask why I remember this!

As a teenager it did sound quite interesting but I did not purchase a copy.

Women, of course, fought in the Soviet army during WW II - front lines and as pilots, I believe. The saying was there was no problem getting women to fight - the hard part was getting them to stop...

Good luck to all,

~The Old Bookaroo

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

These quotes are from another topic:

Just got a reply to my email.

I can get copies of all three folders, as they are all on film now.

I didn't read the entire Holmdahl Book, but does it talk about when he was in Ft. Leavenworth for smuggling booze (five years I think)?

Best-Mike

He was in trouble many times Mike, and had some pretty serious charges. He had faced the firing squad on more than one occasion. It will be interesting to hear if the 19 page unfinished autobiography is among the now availiable folders, I was informed by Berkeley that it was not, and that the catelog shows items missing.

___________________________________________________________________

Not being at home, I am going on my poor memory here.

I don't believe Holmdahl was convicted of "smuggling booze". He was convicted of a more serious charge, but never spent time in Levenworth for it . He was pardoned by the President. That was done so he could serve with the U.S. Army in WWI?

An interesting story concerns Holmdahl and George Patton working together in Mexico.

As a tie-in to the Ted DeGrazia fictional story, Holmdahl was good friends with a banker in Morenci, AZ. That banker wrote some letters of recomendition for him.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Peeps: I knew a doctor called Konrad Von Sheck. He was from Austria and became a contract Doctor for the US Army in the Philippines, then later migrated to Mexico for the revolution. He ended up as Pancho's private doctor and is supposedly given the credit for saving Poncho's leg from gangrene, a trick that he had learned in the Philippines.

He still had the enameled table that he used to work on Pancho with, and showed me a document by the later Mexican gov't ordering all cooperation possible for him because of his invaluable services during the revolution.

He told me that after a battle near present Guaymas, the main body of troops left for Hermosillo while he was left behind to care for some critically wounded with a squad of soldiers for protection. He said is was strictly a proposition of simply waiting for them to die since there wasn't much that he could do, they all had developed Tetanus.

He said that since most corrals were constructed of piled stone fences, they offered the most security during a battle. So all of the wounded were placed inside. sheehs , any wonder why they all developed Tetanus?

After the last one had died, he left for Hermosillo, but that they could only travel at night because of the numerous bands of quasi legal bandits that roamed everywhere, killing, raping, and robbing in the name of the revolution.. He said that they didn't find a single living thing between Guaymas and Hermosillo.

In one ranch they found every one, men, women,and children dead, even the domestic animals had been killed also??

He was in El Fuerte when I met hm, living in an old Spanish rundown house next to the river. he had jars of scorpions which he loved to catch by their stingers then pop them into a bottle of alcohol .One night there was a crash in his room, when they entered, they found him pinned to the floor in his broken cot by a huge wooden beam. They freed him, and he merely went to another cot and promptly went back to sleep? An ordinary person would have simply been killed. The beam was about 18 ft by 8 x 8 of hardwood. I guess that they just don't make em like Holmdahl and Von Sheck any more.

I should have had my butt kicked for not sitting by him for hours recording his memories. He still was practicing medicine, but was concentrating on the hill Indians looking for mineral information.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Jose,

The story of Pancho Villa's bout with gangrene is told by Villa......himself.

It happened long before the revolution, and he was cured by the local village women.

I suspect that everyone alive at that time rode or had close personal contact with Villa, much like everyone alive in Arizona during Jacob Waltz's day was a close personal friend of the Dutchman.

On the other hand, it may be just as your friend told you. Pancho Villa was pretty detailed in telling his story. Had he the pleasure of another go-round with gangrene, I can't help but feel he would have included it in his memoirs.

Trust you and everyone else on the Forum had a great Christmas.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Could well be Cactus, but among the papers that he showed me, one said that Pancho had been hit in the leg by some ordnance (never clarified what) and had developed Gangrene. The other mil doctors did not have Von shecks' experience with it and wanted to amputate, the standard tech. Pancho insisted in trying it. If they had amputated, the local history, perhaps even the revolouiton might have been changed.

I saw the paper, however we may never know the truth, the full or actual story. Is it possible that we are speaking of two dfferent times and incidents?

Hmm, i wonder if his family still has any of his papers?

Here is another report of Pancho being wounded and having gangrene.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9402E6DC113FE233A2575BC2A9629C946796D6CF


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Jose,

That's a pretty thin story......for sure. Villa would have bragged about such wounds and how he escaped death, once more, in his memoirs. Had those bloody bandages been wrapped around a wound that had become gangrenous, there would have been no doubt in the troopers minds. Anything close to the kinds of wounds they thought Villa had sustained, would be a story he would not be able to resist telling.

On the other hand, at around seventeen he sustained a "bruise" to his foot which turned to gangrene. He sold everything he had, horse, gun, saddle......etc., in order to have a doctor tend to the wound. When he ran out of money, his doctor ran out on him. I believe he managed to see another who wanted to amputate, but Villa refused.

Some women in the village gave him a place to stay and cured him with Nightshade and warm compresses. This was long before the revolution. There was a doctor who travelled with him for awhile, during the revolution, but it is not the man you have mentioned. In fact, that name can't be found anywhere in the history of Pancho Villa, the Revolution or in the general history of Mexico.....that I have been able to find.

There were many foreigners in Mexico at that time, and I would imagine the vast majority of their names have been lost to history. It would be interesting to find the good doctor's name in some documents of the time.

Since Villa had been cured of gangreen once, he would have tried the same method......I would think.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Morning cactus I agree essentially with what you say, but here are many blank pages in history as you well know, even the major participants differ in their versions, so who knows. It was not unusual to find high ranking officers at Von She(o)ck's home, so he must have been held in high regard by the surviving Rev. Officers.

As for accuracy, history as is now being taught in many Japanese schools, says that Japan attacked Pearl Harbour in retaliation for the atomic bombing by the US

Suffice to say that Konrad was in the revolution with Pancho and was highly regarded as evidenced by the no of documents that he had. and the high ranking officers. that visited him. However I must add this---

One night about 2 am, I was awakened by a loud banging on my front door. I sleepily pulled on a pair of pants, nothing more, and answered the door. When I opened it I saw nothing but high ranking Mexican officers, which included two generals, a col, and a few majors , and my friend, a lonely Capt.

So there I was, frowzy haired, sleepy eyed, no socks etc wondering just just what in h-- that I had done, when my friend the Capt turned to the officers and introduced me to the highest ranking general first ..saying "General --- may I present to you my friend, Major Curry , formerly of the USAF" . we shook hands and so it went for all of the Officers. Later, between drinks, they had bought a few bottles, when I had a bit of chance I whispered "I wasn't a Major, only a lowly Lt" He grinned and whispered back, "you are a Major now ".

And so I am known now by the local military, and in general, they keep a hands off thingie with me.

Of such little, silly, incidents is history and legends. rewritten.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. I am not a sheep luvin, prospector, and poor coffee maker though. There are limits !

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote:

P.S. I am not a sheep luvin, prospector, and poor coffee maker though. There are limits !

Horrors! Perish the thought amigo, to sink to THAT level would be to plumb the very depths of human existence! That you should even entertain such a degrading thought amazes me, even to the point of questioning your honored Sainthood.

Not to cast aspersions on the well respected profession of prospectors, some of whom are much beloved, like good old Sam...

better known by his nickname "Yosemite" which I presume he got in the same way I "found" my own...

NOR to cast aspersions on the equally well-respected profession of shepherds, after all some of them were friends with a famous religious personality. However anyone who could be BOTH, is not likely a good person. Such a person would likely be looking for promising quartz rock outcrops while tending the sheep, or thinking of lamb chops while panning out concentrates!

Oroblanco

“It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep may be” -Virgil
"It were better to have an army of sheep led by a lion than an army of lions led by a sheep" -Alexander the Great
"It is better to die on your feet, than to live on your knees." -Pancho Villa

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Pancho Villa's Silver

Jose,

As I said, your doctor's story may very well be true. Mexico was awash with foreigners during the revolution. Many of them never made any historical mark and remain ghosts.

Pancho Villa was wounded, badly, in the leg sometime after Pershing's punitive expedition into Mexico began. He was taken to a cave in the Sierra Madres to heal. It could be that your doctor worked on him. He was not wounded by U.S. Forces, who never caught sight of him, although they may have found bloody bandages that were used on his leg. They did however get close, without even realizing it. While in the cave, a patrol camped on the road below Villa, and kept them awake singing around the campfire.

Knowing that he was wounded in the leg, gives your doctor's story more legs.......so to speak. Do you know the year he treated him?

Happy New Year!!!

Joe