Question?? coins, orientation and sinkrate

[sportfisher411]

This question is to all, Is there a particular way in which your coins are situated when you find them? ie. horizontal, verticle or at another degree of rotation. Im just interested to see if the sink rate for a verticle coin is faster than a horizontal coin. Just think if they do sink faster then there are alot of deep, nice finds to be had.

 

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[Lowbatts]

Well there's a lot of differing opinions on "sink" of coins. Haven't seen any science on it yet. Of course in a dynamic model with some sustained seismic activity a coin would settle to a level where the ground was of approximately equal mass if it were on edge or flat. A coin lying flat does not sink so much as the ground growing around it and the grass, roots and plants push under as they overgrow it. Once past the roots, there is no force above it pushing it down and gravity does not seem strong enough to pull a flat coin through compact dirt. Gravel and other large components may turn a coin to edge and assist in driving it deeper, animals and insects burrowing can loosen the pack under coins giving them additional room to "sink" over time also.

Just some thoughts, and I'd rather be digging thinking!

 

[lonewolfe]

Just a suggestion, build/use a depth multiplier, dig every signal and don't worry about sink rate, you'll find the really deep ones!

 

[PAmike]

how do you build depth multiplier?

mike

 

[dudes2112]

Does a coin sink at all? I wouldn't think a coin would actually sink unless it was in some sort of mud or VERY loose dirt. Is it possible the coin stays pretty much at the same level and after years of plants, grass, leaves and other compost, that the ground actually raises around it. If you think about it, if you mow your grass and use a mulching style mower, all of the clippings are cut finely enough to not need raked up. Of course this would be difficult to measure, but it would seem that the yard, after years and years of this, would actually become higher as the grass decomposed into dirt.

Just a thought, I have no proof of this whatsoever but it seemed more plausible than things sinking in heard dirt. Sounds like a question for that Mythbusters show!

Anyway, long story short, using the theory above, a coin on edge would probably be at the same depth over the same period of time, in the same conditions. Unless someone stepped on it while it was on edge and drove it down.

Dudes

 

[bakergeol]

I believe the experts use the term "soil stability". In areas of unstable soil such as in sand or loam coins will sink fast. In Florida it is typical in a lot of areas to find 20 year coins 12 inches deep. I do think we have to accept sinkage of the coins. I have detected a few 19th century buildings for which I had old photos of. They had the same old stone steps as in the photo and the old coins of that era were located 6" to 10" deep beside them just where they were dropped 100 years ago.

To be honest it took me a long time to actually believe that vertically buried coins exist. Just how do you get a coin buried vertically?? I thought that most reports of vertical coins were innocently bogus(still do)like folks reporting finding a dime at 15 inches. They would dig past the target and the coin would fall down from above and/or appear vertical.

Since that time I have seen photos of in-situ vertical coins and had to long ago accept that they are out there.I don't recall an obstruction near the coin in the photos. Disturbed ground at one time is my best guess?(don't really believe in freeze/thaw as a dynamic mover of coins).

The question is why do folks think that coins buried non-horizontally are not rare? I think it has to do in a large part on where we hunt. Folks today are still hunting the same areas we did 40 years ago.? What older coins are left after all those decades of hunting parks?If we ignore recent drops what is left is what earlier detectors had difficultly detecting. That would be very deep coins, coins on edge and coins masked by trash. In fact finding these illusive coins that dozens of other detectorists have walked over is the CHALLENGE for a lot of folks. Folks finding several coins on edge in a popular area may think they are common and have to be reminded that countless thousands of horizontally buried coins have been removed from that same area in previous decades.

Just my two cents worth
George

 

[PAmike]

here are my thoughts.

a coin is dropped 100 years ago. when someone steps on it is it pressed in the ground, even more in wet conditions. when the grass is cut the grass rotts and is eventually turned into dirt, same with leaves. when it rains the dirt is turned into mud and will sometimes cover the coin placing dirt on top of the coin, even more in lower areas. Take all that into consideration, the ground actually seems to grow around the coin. The ground seems the same but it is not, this takes many years to actually make much of a difference.

I own a piece of property that has alot of hardwood trees. when I purchased the property 3 years ago there were alot of old bottles on the surface now they are under the surface but just under. the only real difference is that the leaves all fall in the wooded area and it is situated in such a way that the wind rarely blows any leaves outside of that small area.

There are way too many factors that effect the position of a coin to list. including natural occurances and human interferance that cause the "drop" of a coin.

mike

 

[nick1878]

I might have a theory that is good news for everyone!! A guy told me that he absolutely believed that as the ground freezes and thaws, coins and other treasures are subject to ascend as well as descend.
I was recently at an old park ground was still a little frozen. I have hunted this site ALOT over the years. While there I found 4 Mercury dimes, 2 buffalo nickels, 1 barber dime, a key and other items from the 1800s. All of these were ON the surface or just under it. They were definately buried for some time and now rest on top. Maybe someone found them and ripped their pouch or something. It was weird

 

[Monty]

And why is it that ancient cities for the most part are under several feet of soil? Other than shifting desert sand or volcanic ash why would it sink? Damn, now you have me thinking about some other weird thing!

 

[lonewolfe]

For anyone that doesn't live in a place/climate such as Michigan where I live, and where the frost can freeze down 3 feet or more during a winter.? Welcome to the reality of "up heaving" during the spring thaw! Spring is "the best" time to detect in MI, IN, MN, WI, IL, and anywhere else that gets frozen solid during the winter. It's a "known fact" that frost UP heaves EVERYTHING including foundations of homes, decks attached to homes, and anything else buried/sticking in the ground. That's why "we" have "frost line laws" and MUST bury foundations at 42 inches (6 inches below the frost line) in order to build a home, deck, etc. and the same reason we have laws against semi trucks, and trucks/vehicals over certain weights restricted from driving on certain roads during April/early May. Coins and relics/etc. are NO different. When spring thaw comes and the up heaving begins, you have a small window of opportunity to do some serious detecting to find coins/etc. that you normally can't find during other seasons! The process takes weeks and you have a good month to get out and hunt old farms, parks, lots, etc. etc that are old enough to give up older coins/etc. before everything settles back down!

"Believe it or NOT!"

 

[elkboy]

I don't get to wrapped up in all the science of how deep and at what rate. I know from years of experience most all my 50 - 100 year old finds range from 3 - 5 inches rarely past 7 inches. There are just to many variables to even come up with a sound theory. The best science is to know your detector and how it works. HH Dave

 

[jeff of pa]

LOL

 

[lonewolfe]

Ok F2D - yer funny!

 

[Lowbatts]

Geez, coins popping out of the ground, freezing, thawing, sounds like myth....

Whatever happened to us all? Have we forgotten our past? How the Magic Mole and the Holy Gopher came to the surface with coins they found in the path of their burrowing lifestyles and showed us the way to happiness and enlightenment? I remember well when he made himself known to me, it was during a sweat lodge incantation and my spirit guide came to me. I dig with the spirit of the mole now, and share his dirt and roots. The Mole God has shown me much since then. He tasks me to remove pulltabs and old screw caps from the path of his burrow and I gladly do his bidding. He wants me to dig deeper, to the very heart of his home, where he has hidden the greatest of targets reserved only for those willing to remove the trash demons that haunt his realm....

 

[MDnoob]

LOL

After much thought I have come up with an explanation:

Clearly old lawns do not rise much. My parents house is 200 years old and judging by the position of old foundations, steps, sidewalks, the ground has risen no more than 1 inch or so. This is due to being grown over by grass or covered by leaves which degenerate into soil. Most of what we are talking about is stuff from the last 200 years or so...most people agree that coins even 20 years old are often found a few inches down. At my parents house, I commonly find coins from the 60's which are 3" down. As far as ancient cities being buried, that is from them being built over, landslides, floods, etc. Besides we are only talking about 1-200 years, not thousands.

As far as frost lifting goes, I have heard of it, but obviously it doesn't not effect coins much or else we would have scenarios similar to what free2Dtect described. Perhaps it only happens to large objects? Or really far North? Anyone here from Canada? How deep are old coins there? It seems that ice expanding would push only large objects up...? I will get to that in a minute...

Anyway, here in Virginia, coins can get pretty deep. I feel that the process goes like this: Coin is dropped and is grown over by grass within a few months or weeks, or is perhaps pressed into the ground a little. Grass continually grows over itself but as the grass grows up, the bottom roots are also disintegrating. Thus the top level of the grass stays the same, but the coin sinks.

(otherwise, anywhere that grass grows would be a feet higher than the rest of the ground after a while, so the roots must disintegrate at approx. the same speed at the top grows)

The active grass level only goes down about 3" or so, depending on the yard. After that is mostly just plain dirt. From there I think that several processes cause coins to sink further:

Frost: Ground expands from cold, coin does not. Coin has more room to settle down.

Animals esp. earthworms. Dig under and over coins. Coins fall and settle. If once mole, gopher, or whatever digs a tunnel right under a coin at any time in history, the coin can drop up to 2" deeper into the tunnel in one fell swoop.

It may not seem so, but coins are much, much denser than most soil. As rain comes and goes, the ground is softened and the coin has less resistance from less firm soil and settles deeper.

The coin can be affected by many things, perhaps it comes to rest on a rock and does not sink further or is on edge. Different types of grass/vegetation, soil types obviously, groundwater, rainfall, traffic, frost...on and on.

Whew...

 

[jeff of pa]

All intresting Thoughts, I like Free & Lowbatts Best tho? Anyway, Freezing & thawing Absolutely moves things around. Fill a glass to the brim, & stick it in the freezer. The ICE will rise above the rim. in the ground If there is a coin at just under the soil. the top of the ground will freeze & push. as the ground under the coin freezes it will also push. This is why up here, you may miss a target one year , but in the spring find it. as The Pushing & shifting will move a Coin from maby this Position? ( l ) in the ground to? ?( / ) this position , and eventually ( _ ) this.? ?Test what I'm saying, take a plastic Bingo or Poker Chip. , fill a glass to the brim, float the chip & freeze. see what angle the chip is frozen in the ice. now realize ground is thicker then water & when the ice thaws . the chip would stay in that position if not in liquid.? ? now imagine this process going on over 1 or 200 years ; ?Jeff

 

[red]

I gotta get in on this theory.
Down here in Texas we don't have a freeze much more then a few in. deep so we have to go by other factors and use a more scientific way of figuring it out mathematically.
Now I won't bore you with all the calculating stuff but when done using the University of ATM method and hours of hard ponderin the efects of relativity we came up with the answer you need to apply on a coin hunt. The lighter coins WILL sink slower in the ground then the heavier ones will in watter. unless it's salt water maybe.
Shoot now I gotta go down to the Gulf of Mexico for more test..I'll keep you informed.

And thats all I have to say on that.

Red

 

[Lowbatts]

Frost, ground mass, gophers and water... Just leaving out normal vibration,whether it's due some nearby fault line that constantly or frequently gives off vibration from a natural or manmade source. Manmade source: Train tracks, large airports, etc can have some effect for up to a mile or more depending on the ground nearby. That constant or frequent vibration has a known effect, it compacts the medium and everything in the matrix. Depth multipliers also exist in the form of sloping hillsides where small amounts of the loosest soil particles can be rained downhill every year, seemingly "deepening" the items at the bottom. Where these hills terminate near train tracks for instance you have this runoff being compacted over items, coinage etc. each and every year.

 

[bakergeol]

OK My turn
Why do we have such a strong? belief in frost heaving for coins? Because Lonewolfe's observations are correct.
Spring time is indeed a time when we can detect coins easier and deeper. Why? because the soil is saturated with water which means you can detect objects(including iron) deeper. This I believe is the main cause of the frost heaving beliefs.

Regarding frost heaving- the ground and all objects in it are moved upward in the same length of movement. It is only after thawing does the ground settle back to it's original position but the buried object does not. The Army did some experiments with buried unexploded ordnance. It found that the upward movement of buried objects(UXO) depended upon the objects length. Heavier and longer ordnance(81mm shells) actually could move upward 1.5 inches a year after frost heaving. However, lighter and shorter shells (20mm) averaged only 1/3 of an inch a year. Really heavy objects because of their weight did not move upward. The point of course is that we are talking about continued upward movement every year. The Army was concerned(and rightly so) that the munitions would eventually appear at the surface. Yes even large rocks can move upward.

So we can see that the length of a coin is incredibly small compared to a 20mm shell and it's upward movement(if any) would be a small fraction of the 1/3 inch/per year for a large 20mm shell.? So again better finds in the springtime in my opinion are probably because of saturated soil conditions and not vertical movement of coins.

Just my 2 cents
George

 

[jeff of pa]

hay FREE, That's called HIT-N-RUN? ? ? ? Below the Belt & Out, Huh ?