Question on ethics and the law on found items.

[Light Foot]

Trust your inner voice.
If it's cash? It diffenately belongs in a pocket
If it's not? Turn into cash which belongs in the pocket
Really though it is a case of finders keepers unless your inner voice tells you otherwise.
Class rings,cameras,or anything that can be returned within reason should be returned.
I would not feel the least be troubled in letting it be known That MDs are not cheap nor are the batteries to operate them, and the fact that with out either the said item would have not been found..... Can you say Donations are always appreciated? LOL

 

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[Skillets]

I'm in agreement with the consensus here....return the identifiable valuables, and keep your mouth shut about the rest. I find it irritating in a way that's hard to express that there are such busybodies out there, always poking their noses into your/our business and the "what's in your wallet?" type of atitude, whether it's other people in general or the government. And while I'm at it, am I the only one sick of seeing SO MANY "no trespassing" signs tacked onto trees on the side of the road? Half of the "woods" I come across are off limits for whatever reason, even when there's no visible home anywhere near.

Skillets

 

[TreasureTales]

I'm in agreement with the consensus here....return the identifiable valuables, and keep your mouth shut about the rest. I find it irritating in a way that's hard to express that there are such busybodies out there, always poking their noses into your/our business and the "what's in your wallet?" type of atitude, whether it's other people in general or the government. And while I'm at it, am I the only one sick of seeing SO MANY "no trespassing" signs tacked onto trees on the side of the road? Half of the "woods" I come across are off limits for whatever reason, even when there's no visible home anywhere near.

Skillets

Although it's irritating to see the No Trespassing signs on private property, I can understand the property owners' wishes to remain out of litigation and remain free of trash, cut trees, etc. I'm not saying that's what treasure hunters do, but that is all too often what braindead people do and there are plenty of them around destroying, littering, suing at the drop of a hat.

What really smokes me is the closure of "public" lands for lame excuses. The last few days have been very warm around here - over 70 degrees - yet the BLM land has road closure signs at all their facilities due to "winter conditions." What winter conditions?The ground is dry and the streams are in their banks. It is my land - our land - but we can't use it unless/until our big brothers say it's OK to use it. BS, we pay for that land. It is supposed to be ours. But don't violate the rules they set up or you will be sorry - I've known guys who did and are still paying the price in one way or another. It's not pretty when the full weight of the federal government goes against you. Isn't that one reason we fought the Revolutionary War? To fight oppressive government?

It's fun to show off stuff, but use some good judgment about what you show online. You never know who is reading this stuff.

 

[Skillets]

Wise words TT...and it's not so much the signs on private property that bug me, of course I can understand the owner's need to put up signage. What bugs me is that everywhere I go, everything is "owned"...I know property ownership is a pretty basic fact of life and I'm not speaking out against it or anything, but it's such a bummer to come across a beautiful area (hunting spot or not) and see a sign tacked to a tree.

Also, what is BLM land?

 

[W6PEA]

Now I remember why I didn't follow a career in law! Criminal justice was as far as I wanted to go. Geez, you need a lawyer to decipher that stuff. Thanks for the very informative reply.
So, in a nutshell, it sounds like you are under no obligation to turn anything over or to advertise for the owner unless:

1. The item is worth over $100
2. You are an employee of the state and find it while working for the state, it is to be turned in and if not claimed it will be auctioned.
3. Property that is found on federal grounds by anyone must be turned in.
4. Property was not lost but was actually abandoned (dumpster diving) is free game.
5. If you advertise for the owner and they don't claim the property within 7 days, it may be legally yours. (still some question on weather you are required to turn it in to authorities first)
RP

Because of the new recycling laws in California (Chula Vista) dumpster diving is illegal.
1st. time items confiscated and warning issued by Police.
2nd. time items confiscated , and ticket issued for court appearance.
3rd. time the dumpster diver is supposed to be carted off to the county hotel for incorigables.

Sorry about that. They have time to screw with people trying to get a little cash to eat something without begging geez, but they can't stop the illegal aliens.

there is something wrong with that picture.

 

[Jeffro]

BLM is Bureau of Land Management.

It's finders keepers, losers weepers.

What is key in this discussion is legality. IF you find something thats all well and good. IF you blab about it, then anyone who hears about it can make a claim to it, regardless of whether they actually have rights or not. In the case of large finds, it could be tied up in courts for quite some time. By the time all is said and done, the lawyers get most of it. Thats IF you win.

Some good cases for finder's rights-
Hamaker vs. Blanchard (90 Pa. 377)
Weeks vs. Hackett (104 Maine 264)
Danielson vs. Roberts (44 Ore. 108)
Durfee vs. Jones (11 R.I. 588)

Law is something to be respected and, at the same time, it is something to be feared. You can dabble around with treasure for years and years without running afoul of the law or being threatened with lawsuits and arrest; then, one day, you might find yourself in a position equal to the Mighty Casey at bat and have legal curves thrown at you one after the other.

The above is a direct quote from KvonM's Treasure hunters manual #7. In it, he makes a very good case for being discreet.

Say you find 10 bucks worth of clad at the park. No one cares, even though its good spendable money.

Now say you find $10,000 worth of gold coins. Rest assured if you open your mouth, you will have at least 10 people turn up out of the woodwork who will lay claim to it. It'll take years in the courts to figure out who owns what. And again, the lawyers get the bulk of it. You'd be lucky to walk away with 100 bucks.

In short, no matter what state you are in, "the law" can go either way. There is no set precedent for anything found. It is up to the judge, the authorities, etc. to decide for you. Almost a guarantee these days that the authorities have their best interests at heart, not yours.

Anything that I can trace, myself, to its original owner.... well they'll get a nice surprise when I return it. If I can't trace it, I never found it.

 

[W6PEA]

Say you find 10 bucks worth of clad at the park. No one cares, even though its good spendable money.

Now say you find $10,000 worth of gold coins. Rest assured if you open your mouth, you will have at least 10 people turn up out of the woodwork who will lay claim to it. It'll take years in the courts to figure out who owns what. And again, the lawyers get the bulk of it. You'd be lucky to walk away with 100 bucks.

Anything that I can trace, myself, to its original owner.... well they'll get a nice surprise when I return it. If I can't trace it, I never found it.

Moral of the story take the money (find) and run?
I know for sure if I found a Rolex Watch or even a Casio Watch I'd stick it my pocket and walk away. But if I was out MDing and a person came up and asked me to look for their watch that's a different chapter (story)

 

[W6PEA]

This is not ment as a flame NOR as a politicial statement:

Now this post makes one wonder "are we talking LAW or are we talking common sense" ?

Laws are made by and for lawyers and politicians. If i find an item (and mind you i don`t care if it is on fed land or state land) unless it has some intials on it, or an ad is posted with a complete discription so id`ing is exact, and i mean exact, then i found it, someone else lost it "so sorry end of subject". If it has intials yes i will do my best to get it returned to the orginal owner (NOT the feds or state who will not try to locate the orginal owner hence no one claiming it) then sell it off and the feds or state gets the money or it will disappear.

You want to get technical, under the law>>> ever item anyone finds belongs to someone who "DIDN`T " loose it just misplaced it but it still belongs to them. HUMMM ok everyone that finds an arrowhead turn it over to the feds to be returned to the American Indians, every spanish real u may find on the beach turn it over to the feds so they can return it to spain, or every war relic turn it over to the feds since some soldier must have misplaced it>>> See where this could go>>>> ohhh what if i send each park or fed land a lost and found statement, stating i lost $10.00 in there park, do u actually think i will ever hear from them>>>NOT....

This is just another manuver by the state or feds to get more money, our tax dollars isn`t enough for them so they want any item u may find so they can sell it off and pocket the money, ain`t heard yet where some honest treasure hunter found a ring on state or fed land turned it in, ring wasn`t claimed then sold off by the state or feds who then sent the lucky treasure hunter a reward for finding it> No the money gained by the sale if it was sold and not misplaced went into the state or feds pockets.

An old man once said "you lead by example" if and when this goverment ever regains its honesty then and only then will i respect it and be honest in my dealings with this goverment.

I think we are talking Human decency.

 

[Ant]

I go by these codes:

• [Keep it zipped
• Only let it be known on a need to know bassis
• And remember, loose lips, sink ships

Hi TT.
The acronym (SSS) is used in the hunting world too.

But it represents:
Shoot-um, Shovel-um, and Shut-up, SSS.

 

[Ranger Paul]

I figured this topic would receive several replies. I appreciate all the different perspectives and viewpoints. I think if all are taken in, a good middle ground is to be found.

It really is more of an ethical subject than a legal one. If something of value is found, and is definitely traceable or identifiable, in most cases there should be some effort to return it to the owner. That's where your inner voice comes in. If you find a nice ring, and see in the lost and found section of the paper that evening that somebody lost that ring where you found it, it should be returned, no question.
I also agree that in most cases, keeping your mouth shut is a good thing to do, especially on less identifiable items. In the case I mentioned at the beginning of this post, where a hiker found a "Leatherman tool" in a National Park, he came into the ranger station and reported it found, which is the "legal" thing to do. Where he came into trouble was NOT turning it over to authorities when requested. He was basically "ordered" to turn it over as is the law. He refused, abruptly left the station and was pulled over down the road. Although it was not a big crime, he disobeyed a lawful order from a federal law enforcement officer. NOT a good idea. I'm sure he wishes he had never reported it found in the first place.
I know there are people who will keep anything they find, and never think of looking for the "previous" owner, and there are people who will go out of their way to find the owner.
Most of us probably fall somewhere in the middle.
I suggest following the ethical side, and avoid the legal side of things. That area just gets plain ugly sometimes.
Ranger Paul

 

[TheSleeper]

"Quote Ranger Paul " In the case I mentioned at the beginning of this post, where a hiker found a "Leatherman tool" in a National Park, he came into the ranger station and reported it found, which is the "legal" thing to do. Where he came into trouble was NOT turning it over to authorities when requested. He was basically "ordered" to turn it over as is the law. He refused, abruptly left the station and was pulled over down the road. Although it was not a big crime, he disobeyed a lawful order from a federal law enforcement officer. NOT a good idea. I'm sure he wishes he had never reported it found in the first place.

RP, see there is the problem, ethics apply to both sides not only citizens but those wearing the badges.
To me that officer should have some common sense tacked onto his butt so he can learn them. He took an honest law abiding citizen and turned him into a criminal, all for a $20 tool, that would possibly never have been reported as lost. True the citizen disobeyed a direct order, BUT that order was wrong.

What that officer should have done considering the value of the item is, ask the finder IF it was reported would he send the item to the owner, if it was never reported it would be his to keep. THATS COMMON SENSE, i`m sure the finder would have heartedly agreed. But instead that officer took the law to its fullest meaning and thus created a criminal out of the finder.

RP, let me ask you a truthful question, can you in 100% assurance state that if that finder had turned the leatherman in and the item was never reported as lost, would anyone have taken the time to return it to the finder or would it have just plain disappeared into another rangers pocket?

Thats where the rub comes in too many in law enforcement use the law to there own good.

RP, please do not take this personelly it is not a flame against you, I don`t know you, you could easily be one of those good rangers we all hear about. By your actions of posting here it shows you are trying to understand both sides of the fence, and that shows you are considerate and trying to be the best in your duties that you can be.

 

[TheSleeper]

It has been brought to my attention pertaining to the price of leathermans, being close to $100. Not the $20 i stated in my post. The reason i put $20 is the # of imitations out there on the market that even though are imitations everyone calls them a leatherman. So in all honesty i should have put $20-$100 on my previous post.

Ty for bringing that to my attention, so i could correct myself.

 

[W6PEA]

It has been brought to my attention pertaining to the price of leathermans, being close to $100. Not the $20 i stated in my post. The reason i put $20 is the # of imitations out there on the market that even though are imitations everyone calls them a leatherman. So in all honesty i should have put $20-$100 on my previous post.

Ty for bringing that to my attention, so i could correct myself.

My wife and I have a business where we deal with people that are into endurance riding......I sell Leatherman tools ....Gerber tools.....to name a few and a lot of other things, any way even at wholesale prices Leatherman tools are not CHEAP I can't even get the cheapest Leatherman less than $20.00, of course you can go to wally world and get a cheap Japanese knock off for about $9.00

 

[Sandman]

TreasureTales and Spez, Sleeper, I am with you guys 100%. I have always tried to do what was right but realize what the Authorities don't know can't hurt you.

Lost property is not abandoned property. Lost property is still the legal property of the previous owner.

As stated, laws in states are different. Nobody would argue that the cow that wandered onto their property was theirs, but would if they found something in the dirt. I quit running ads years ago when I found a ring that had a $500.00 reward. The loser called the police when I contacted him about returning the ring and we were said to be guilty of extorsion. We gave the ring back since they identified it correctly and it would only mean a court appearence over something that I knew was theirs. In our state, Michigan, laws are different in about every county and city and it is impossible to keep up with them.

You don't see many of my posts in the Finds Forum.

HH,
Sandman

 

[Jeffro]

I once found a wallet with $300 cash in it. And a host of credit cards and personal ID to boot. Good thing my folks raised me right, a dishonest person could've really screwed this guys life up!

Anyways, I went ten miles out of my way to this guys house to return it. I knocked, he opened the door, took the wallet, and closed the door in my face! Not so much as a thank you. I wasn't expecting a reward or anything, but this guy was seriously lacking in even the simple common courtesy of a "Thanks".

Relating to seizures, which is exactly what happened in the leatherman incident..... there is no law that says the object has to be returned to the park. The feds have no title to the lost item. In fact, the finder had more rights to it than anybody at that point in time. For him to be stopped and ticketed was outside the scope of the federal officer's duties.

Oh sure, some higher up mucky muck made it a "rule" at some point in time. And I'm sure the federal officer thought he was doing the right thing, especially if the guy raised an attitude. BUT- the officer could've been in deep doo-doo if the guy pressed the issue in court.

Trouble is, most people won't. Which is why we have what we have today. A bunch of rules and regs that are enforced as law, which they aren't.

 

[wolfmanjoe3]

You don't see many of my posts in the Finds Forum.

Amen. I will be happy to share stories of finding coins and low value items. If When I hit the mother lode or find valuable items, I'll keep it to myself and decide if it can be returned - and then only to someone where undeniable ownership can be established.

I am reminded of the Ben Franklin quote "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead."

 

[Ranger Paul]

For "TheSleeper",
Actually the request ("order") for the hiker to turn over the leatherman was not wrong. It is the law in National Parks, and for a Ranger who is sworn to uphold the law, there is no middle ground when the law is clear. If the Ranger had not requested that the finder turn the item over, once he was aware that it was a "found" item, then the Ranger would not be upholding the law as it is written. If the item had been a backpack, cell phone, etc. the law would be the same. Sorry, but it is not "Finders Keepers" in National Parks.
The Ranger is not a judge, but has to use good judgement when upholding the laws he is sworn to uphold. In this case, the person finding the item CHOSE to not follow a lawful order, which was very politely asked, as I was one of the witnessing officers. The finder made a bad decision and was at fault, not the Rangers.
I don't know the outcome of the case, as I was not called as a witness, but I do know he was cited. It is possible the case was dropped.
RP

 

[Ranger Paul]

Jeffro,
I no longer have the books on the federal codes, and in particular the statute that pertainins to found property at my access, but at the time, I did, and I assure you, there is a statute in the books that directly addressess found property in the National Parks. Unless you have other knowledge, I suggest you not pretend to know the laws. If you have information to the contrary, and can show me that statute, I will publically apologize.
Ranger Paul

 

[TreasureTales]

Ranger Paul, the laws may be clear in the National Parks. But they are not clear in other areas of so-called public lands. It is not something that can be answered authoritatively here or anywhere else. When in doubt - ASK the "authorities." Or shut up about it all together. The guy with the leatherman tool should have kept quiet if he wanted to keep it. Or he should have turned it over once he said he found it. He did neither and now he's gonna pay for his greed/stupidity. The guy doesn't sound too bright to me.

 

[Jeffro]

Jeffro,
I no longer have the books on the federal codes, and in particular the statute that pertainins to found property at my access, but at the time, I did, and I assure you, there is a statute in the books that directly addressess found property in the National Parks. Unless you have other knowledge, I suggest you not pretend to know the laws. If you have information to the contrary, and can show me that statute, I will publically apologize.
Ranger Paul

I will answer that by "show me the money". No disrespect Paul, but I have yet to hear of such a law. And I have yet to be shown such a law. One may exist, but to date no one has proved me wrong. I would sincerely like to see it. Heck, I'll apologize for putting out misinformation if I'm wrong.