River Bank hunt interrupted by misinformed landowner

[NEPA History]

Yesterday I was hunting in the channel of the Susquehanna River in Northeast PA, when I was approached by a man claiming to be the landowner of the property above the bank. He told me that I was trespassing on his property and wanted me to leave. He claims that the deed to his property said that he owned the river bank down to the low water line, and anything I found there was stealing from him. I have NEVER heard of such a thing, and told him that the state owns the natural river channel or a navicable waterway, but he was insistent. Rather than have a confrontation with the guy, I left after informing him that I would be back with proof that he can't legally keep me from any legal activity in the river channel. Sure enough, when I researched the issue on the PA Fish and Boat Commission web site, I found that the Commonwealth of PA owns the natural river channel from the normal low water line to the normal high water line. The landowner owns only to the riparian barrier at the top. You cannot treapass on a privately owned property to access the channel, but if you enter from somewhere else, you have every right to be there and use the river for your enjoyment. I just wanted to share my experience and welcome any feedback or comments you may have. I would never trespass and hunt artifacts or metal detect anyone's property without permission, but I'm not going to be chased off a public place that I have every right to be at. Thanks for reading this and good luck to all.

 

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[vpnavy]

Thanks for the education. You might consider also posting this on the Sub-Forums: Pennsylvania. Thanks again and sorry to hear about your experience.

 

[wainzoid]

Those designated as a navigable waterway, not all waterways.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Does that include disturbing the soil?

"Navigation" is generally non disruptive. As is fishing. Digging holes is another story.

Say you wanted some gravel fill - you can't just go grab shovel-loads from someone's shoreline because it is a navigable river.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

I used to get that BS explanation when I was into bass fishing. I'd be fishing in front of someone's house and they'd get annoyed. They'd claim they owned that water area in front of their land. Sorry, but you don't own the water. You were right to avoid a conflict, but feel free to go back there with proof in hand.


I metal detect a lot of public land trusts in my area and get harassed every once in awhile. To avoid conflict, I always have a printout of the rules and regs of that particular land trust in my pocket. Shuts them up immediately. I also tell them that I metal detect all the time and know ALL the rules and regs in my state. Best way to get the clowns off your back is to make them realize they don't know what they're talking about. Once they figure that out, they usually walk away with their tail between their legs.

 

[1320]

I'd package up all the junk finds that you recover from his "property", show him exactly what you're stealing...lol. Wrap it up nice like a Christmas present.

 

[huntsman53]

We have similar laws concerning waterways here but it is not just limited to navigable waters but also any river, stream and creek that has wild fish in them. These waterways are owned by the State of Tennessee and as long as you enter from public land/domain and stay below the high water line, you are not trespassing on any private property. You can metal detect, fish and hunt for bottles, Native American artifacts and relics but the latter two have to be on the surface and no digging is allowed in the banks. However, there is a lot of lake and river waterways controlled by TVA and no metal detecting is allowed on or in any of them with the exception of designated swimming areas. There are some States where a property owner can and does own to the center of a waterway or all the way across if they own the land on both sides of the waterway and to trespass, you need permission from the property owner. I could be wrong but am pretty sure that these laws apply in North Carolina and Georgia and I am sure that a lot of other States have similar laws while others have laws similar to Tennessee. It would be nice to have links to the information for every State readily available to anyone who visits Treasure Net!

 

[Clay Diggins]

That is not the law in Tennessee huntsman. Non navigable stream beds belong to the private owner of the land where they are found. Only those stream beds that are established by a court as navigable are owned by the State of Tennessee.


Here's a PDF of the opinion of your State Attorney General where they outline the water and bed ownership issues. Notice that a right to travel upon the water does not amount to a right to travel or dig a stream bed. Control of water does not automatically result in control of the stream bed or the banks.

Pennsylvania and Virginia have similar laws.

 

[Nitric]

Well.....If I would have been the land owner....At this point we would be at war. Not because you were there, not because you disagree, but because you feel you have the right to tell me your going to take items from my land no mater how trivial. Which I'm someone that doesn't care what goes on, on my land for the most part but respect the people who do, and I also want the option to stop someone.

You guys talking about fishing, and boats are talking about a whole different thing than removing items. I don't care if it's a pop tab. You have right to be on the water, use the waterway, but do you actually have the right to remove anything from the soil? I may be wrong but I believe most places the land owner owns the soil under the water.

I get that it's not hurting anything but why mess with the land owner? There isn't another place to hunt? And I'll bet if you would have handled it a little differently you may have even been given permission. Start throwing laws and weight around on private land usually ends badly.

I'm no angel and have done a lot of things I probably shouldn't have, but there is a point where you have to walk away and move on when dealing with someones private property, that should still hold a meaning. I've wandered all over private property in my life and was rarely told to leave. If someone would have gotten upset? It's time to go! Or ask for permission.

I get into the same type of arguments in the drone forums. Guys think because an airplane flies over your house that it's the same and "we have the right to fly hobby drones over your property". Ummm...no! And they all freak when I say I'd shoot it down if close enough overhead. Because they have the "right"...

"Private property" is still private property. That is someones piece of paradise, you start causing too much of a problem and it could turn out bad. At least in some of these Southern states it would for sure!! People really value that here. Which I think is great.

 

[against the wind]

NEPA, thank you for giving us actual facts as far as metal detecting along navigable rivers. I live along the Alleghany river and have hunted in wet suit, in the water. I would like to see some land owner tell me that he owns the river. The Allegheny is a very popular river for people who canoe. My home town, Port Allegheny, was originally called "Canoe Place" by the local Indians. It is where they would come by canoe, to trade with other Indians and eventually the white man. Be careful to remember that in National Parks, and Indian Reservations, the rules you are talking about, do not apply.

 

[Jim in Idaho]

I'm lucky. In Idaho all the streams, that don't originate on private land, were set aside for the public when Idaho became a state. So anything below the high water line is OK to fish, detect, picnic, etc. One judge even said that getting out of the water onto private land to pee was not a big deal, providing that you were not damaging anything. Private land ends at the high water mark.
Jim

 

[Upnorth42]

One of the good things about where I live is that the lakes and rivers are not privately owned. Even if you own 100% of the land around a lake a person has the right to cross uncultivated land to go fishing. Mostly its a good thing. The only exception is some people leave behind a lot of trash. If you dig deep enough in the laws its even allowed to go on unposted private land for recreational purposes. Mostly the system works well. Its not overpopulated here so you hardly ever see anyone else out in the woods.

I live in Nova Scotia.

 

[smokeythecat]

In Maryland it is against the law to remove any artifacts that are in the water. If memory serves an "artifact" is either an object 75 or 100 years old. I'd have to look it back up. In theory, if you even approach by boat to hunt a beach, the government can get you if you are removing any artifacts. Zincolns are not artifacts. They claim it all around here (like the whole state) and there are busy bodies by the thousands who will call the authorities on you just for the halibut....

 

[Nitric]

I may be wrong guys....But using the water way and the soil, are two different things. I can canoe, fish, even walk a lot of waterways, but the soil and anything in it may be owned by the land owner. He can't stop you from being there, but can stop you from removing items in most cases. No matter how trivial. As simple as...... You may be rock collecting and asked to leave. Most people would care less, but the guy that does may have the right to tell you to stop.

Don't mix right to water, or water way, with the right to soil or anything in it.

 

[smokeythecat]

I saw an article just a couple weeks ago about a beach in Cornwall, England. There are signs that specifically state you cannot remove any rocks from the beach. Apparently it would damage the environment. Some guy got hassled big time and had to "return" the pebble he took home. Some busybody got his license or such and turned him in. It's not just here.

 

[Nitric]

I saw an article just a couple weeks ago about a beach in Cornwall, England. There are signs that specifically state you cannot remove any rocks from the beach. Apparently it would damage the environment. Some guy got hassled big time and had to "return" the pebble he took home. Some busybody got his license or such and turned him in. It's not just here.

Like I mentioned above, I don't really care what people do on my land, I don't stop hunters or explorers. But if a guy is there telling me has the "right" to remove things? That's where I'm a little sicko and would have an issue. I'm sure I'm not the only "sicko" out there.

Just be happy of the many land owners that don't really care, and don't mess with the few that do along the waterways.

 

[Gare]

You people need to understand the difference between LAND and WATER !!! If he owns land on both sides of the river stream then he OWNS the BOTTOM !!! he does not own the water !!!Now try going out west and mining gold out of the bottom of a river or creek on someone elses claim !!!
They do own the bottom 11

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Ever check out a tax assessor's map? Any property that is by a pond, river, lake or stream shows the property line stopping at the water's edge. If that person should happen to own land on the other side of the water, it will be shown as a different plat. No one owns the water or the land under the water. If it has public access, the water (and the land beneath it) belongs to the town, city or state.

 

[Nitric]

Ever check out a tax assessor's map? Any property that is by a pond, river, lake or stream shows the property line stopping at the water's edge. If that person should happen to own land on the other side of the water, it will be shown as a different plat. No one owns the water or the land under the water. If it has public access, the water (and the land beneath it) belongs to the town, city or state.

Ummm no!! I know exactly what your talking about. That is the water line or the "Water Rights" type of line. At least in AL it is. I own that land! I do have to get permit for a dock, but that's for a different reason. Why does that line come half way up part of my land where there is no water to a cave? I can also fence that off, throw anyone out, etc... I just have certain limits to the change of water(like building a pond). I don't know all details, but going to say I disagree. I can't put a septic in there for example, but could build on it. not sure of all restrictions...

Some of those are way off compared to the maps too. Around lakes with a lot of "feeders" you will see the same type of thing. People still own the feeders.

The tax maps, are different too. That is what your being taxed for. I don't really have full use of all of that land and think I'm not being taxed for part of it.

My Deed also puts the pin 20ft or more under water in a lake. So, they put the plaque on the rock on the bank to give the info , how many feet out and whatever numbers they have on it. If that wasn't mine? Why go through the trouble of a plaque and a description of where that pin is? My deed boundaries would have been where the line is that your talking about instead.

 

[NEPA History]

The point is, it isn't his property. I'm not removing bucket of fill gravel, I'm removing relics and trash. But it's not his property to tell me what I can't and can do there.. thanks for the response!